Try West Bank Settlers in Israeli Military Court Just Like Palestinians

[Phoenall]

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Because they are not subject to martial law under the Geneva conventions, it is that simple a concept to understand.

So you use that as an excuse to condone the abuse of children? Israel routinely ignores the Geneva conventions particlarly in the treatment of Palestinian children.

No it is the reason for the disparity. Do provide examples of the Israeli's being in breach of the Geneva conventions with the actual Geneva conventions in full. Not the usual half addressed and incomplete sections that meet with your POV.

Here they are in full: Geneva Conventions | Wex Legal Dictionary / Encyclopedia | LII / Legal Information Institute

In regards to children: Customary IHL - Practice Relating to Rule 135. Children
States Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for rules of international humanitarian law applicable to them in armed conflicts which are relevant to the child.

Children and International Humanitarian Law: Children protected under international humanitarian law - ICRC

Just partial articles which is all you pro Palestinians/pro terrorists ever produce. Just the parts that support your islamonazi POV, never the full articles that show Israel is working well within the bounds of the conventions. Unlike the Palestinians that don't work within any bounds but those imposed by islam

 

[Phoenall]

Are the Israeli Criminal courts more lenient than the Military courts would be?

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Because they are not subject to martial law under the Geneva conventions, it is that simple a concept to understand.

So you use that as an excuse to condone the abuse of children? Israel routinely ignores the Geneva conventions particlarly in the treatment of Palestinian children.

No it is the reason for the disparity. Do provide examples of the Israeli's being in breach of the Geneva conventions with the actual Geneva conventions in full. Not the usual half addressed and incomplete sections that meet with your POV.

How about *you* provide evidence that this treatment of children in the military justice system is in compliance with the Geneva conventions?

I have by instructing you to read them in full and here they are from the people who manage them



Geneva Conventions

 

[Phoenall]

Coyote, Phoenall, et al,

It has been several years back since we've seriously discussed the "Children" (minors - un-emancipated) issue.

I think the lack of progress on this, and many similar issues, have been a result of a very intensive shift in the Israeli sympathy and frustration with the Hostile Arab Palestinian. The Israelis have been accused of being the belligerent Occupation Authority for so long, that the Israeli doesn't really care any more. OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

I often wondered, given the believe structure of the Jewish People, and the civil nature of the Israeli people in general, why the State of Israel did not build and staff a state-of-the-art, combination Protection and Detention Facility, Treatment and Youth Rehabilitation Center, Basic Education and Vocational Training Activity; for 2000 offenders. And offer an opportunity for apprenticeship programs and grants for college.

The Israelis could be the showcase for the entire region. By far, such a program would have some great rewards down the road, and the cost would be minimal, say as compared to the cost of a flight of F-16 ($15M each).

My conclusion has been that the Israelis believe that the Arab Palestinian would not appreciate an such move; and in fact would object.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...I disagree with this, it's just excusing Israel's actions towards Palestinian minors. Israel is not some third world country. They are a nation constantly extolled as being a beacon of democracy and human rights in a region where both are scarce. Their treatment of minors in the military justice system is long standing, and a bit of a seamy underbelly, especially when compared to the treatment of Jewish juveniles for the same crimes.

When you say: OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

According reports and accounts, they do do real harm and they go against all accepted standards of law concerning the treatment of children. Sexual abuse and threats of sexual abuse? Physical abuse? One of the things pointed out is many cases that should normally be sent to a civil system (either Israeli or Palestinian) end up going through the military system where children are most likely to suffer abuse.

The Geneva conventions state that an occupying power will install a martial law that will treat the criminal elements of the occupied in the same manner as they would be expected to be treated by the nation to who the land belongs. In this case this would be Jordanian law and what ever that law dictates is the maximum the Israeli's can impose. So a copy of the Jordanian legal statutes from 1967 needs to be read and applied to the actions of the Israeli military police force.

 

[Coyote]

Palestinians Find Little Justice In Israeli Military Courts - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Most Palestinian detainees brought to Ofer spend only a few minutes in front of a judge — an Israeli army officer, either on active or reserve duty. Wearing brown Israeli prison uniforms and shackled at their hands and feet, the prisoners' hearings are held entirely in Hebrew, with translations to and from Arabic by Israeli soldiers.

“The translation in these courts is not professional. There’s a problem with evidential procedures and the fact that they rely on secret materials. These are not fair trials,” Francis told Al-Monitor.

“Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, when Israel immediately founded the military orders, which also established the military courts, they started to define all political activities in the occupied territories as illegal, including political parties, demonstrations, even publishing certain books.”

<snip>...Almost 100% conviction rate

In 2011, Haaretz reported that almost all cases heard by Israeli military courts — 99.74% — resulted in convictions. The military appeals courts also overwhelming sided with Israeli army prosecutors, with 67% of appeals filed by the state accepted, versus only 33% filed by the defense.

Israeli human rights group B'Tselem also reported that of the 835 Palestinian minors that were arrested and tried in military courts between 2005 and 2010 on charges of throwing stones, only one was acquitted.

This reality highlights the widespread challenges attorneys face when trying to defend Palestinians charged within this system.

For many, especially attorneys who hold West Bank-only IDs, the first step of physically accessing Israeli prisons and military courts to speak with their clients is difficult. Military orders are also not made readily available to the lawyers, and transcripts of detainee interrogations are often incomplete and also difficult to access.

“There’s no legal handbook you can buy in a military bookstore. There’s almost no access to the laws or jurisprudence of the military courts,” said Israeli attorney Gaby Lasky, who regularly represents Palestinian detainees, in a report titled, “Defending Palestinian Prisoners.”

Secret evidence is also often used, which makes building a defense nearly impossible. This is especially true in cases of Palestinians held under Israeli administrative-detention orders, which allow Israel to hold Palestinians without charge or trial for indefinite periods and without disclosing any evidence to the defense on “security” grounds.

Unequal application of the law

Although they technically live within the same geographical area, Palestinians and Israeli settlers living in the West Bank are subject to two separate legal systems: Palestinians are subject to the military courts, and settlers are governed by Israeli civil law.

Even after dozens of Israeli settlers vandalized vehicles on an Israeli military base and assaulted a top Israeli army commander in 2011, the Israeli military opposed a government suggestion that settlers also be tried in the military courts.

Prosecuting Israeli settlers in military courts would, IDF sources argued, “create further political rifts within the army, which they characterized as a strategic problem for Israel's military.”

“If a settler violates the law, or if a settler attacks a Palestinian or kills a Palestinian, they would be subject to the civil system inside Israel and receive all the protections [therein],” explained Addameer’s Sahar Francis.

“The Israelis were using this system and the policy of imprisonment to target hundreds of thousands of Palestinians all these years. This is what makes the cases of the prisoners very important. It needs lots of effort in order to protect [Palestinians] against such violations and grave breaches for the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

As it states in the Geneva conventions

From UNICEF's report:

All children in contact with judicial systems should be treated with dignity and
respect at all times. For several years, national lawyers, human rights organizations,
United Nations experts and treaty bodies have been publishing reports of ill treatment
of children who come in contact with the Israeli military detention system.
Following an increasing number of allegations of ill-treatment of children in military
detention, UNICEF has conducted a review of practices related to children who
come into contact with the military detention system, from apprehension, to court
proceedings and outcome.

The review further considers whether the military detention system is in conformity
with the Convention on the Rights of the Child as well as the Convention against
Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Following
an overview of policies and norms related to the prohibition of ill-treatment in
international law, the paper presents the structure and operation of the Israeli
military detention system, including the legal framework, establishment of a juvenile
military court, age of criminal responsibility and penalties under military law. The
paper also reviews the legal safeguards in place against ill-treatment under military
law and discusses their conformity with the norms, guarantees and safeguards found
in international law. Subsequently, the treatment of children in the military detention
system is presented, following the passage of children through the system.
This paper is a result of this review and analysis of practices. It concludes that the
ill-treatment of children who come in contact with the military detention system
appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized throughout the process,
from the moment of arrest until the child’s prosecution and eventual conviction and
sentencing.

It is understood that in no other country are children systematically tried by juvenile
military courts that, by definition, fall short of providing the necessary guarantees
to ensure respect for their rights. All children prosecuted for offences they allegedly
committed should be treated in accordance with international juvenile justice
standards, which provide them with special protection. Most of these protections are
enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of the Child.​

Not a legally binding article just recommendations and wishes, the Geneva conventions are law along with the IHL and they set out the ground rules. Now when the Palestinians learn to treat Israeli children in the manner they want their children treat then there might be a change in the attitudes

What Israeli children do the Palestinians hold in their prisons or in detention?

 

[Coyote]

They seem to be. Israeli children are not forceably taken from their beds, seperated from their parents, denied legal counsel or family during interrogations.

Over 100 Palestinian minors reported abuse in IDF, police custody in 2009
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oP...ations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

Because they are not subject to martial law under the Geneva conventions, it is that simple a concept to understand.

So you use that as an excuse to condone the abuse of children? Israel routinely ignores the Geneva conventions particlarly in the treatment of Palestinian children.

No it is the reason for the disparity. Do provide examples of the Israeli's being in breach of the Geneva conventions with the actual Geneva conventions in full. Not the usual half addressed and incomplete sections that meet with your POV.

How about *you* provide evidence that this treatment of children in the military justice system is in compliance with the Geneva conventions?

I have by instructing you to read them in full and here they are from the people who manage them



Geneva Conventions

No you haven't. You've posted a link to a lengthy article because you are either too lazy or the material supporting the claim doesn't exist.

 

[Phoenall]

Palestinians Find Little Justice In Israeli Military Courts - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Most Palestinian detainees brought to Ofer spend only a few minutes in front of a judge — an Israeli army officer, either on active or reserve duty. Wearing brown Israeli prison uniforms and shackled at their hands and feet, the prisoners' hearings are held entirely in Hebrew, with translations to and from Arabic by Israeli soldiers.

“The translation in these courts is not professional. There’s a problem with evidential procedures and the fact that they rely on secret materials. These are not fair trials,” Francis told Al-Monitor.

“Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, when Israel immediately founded the military orders, which also established the military courts, they started to define all political activities in the occupied territories as illegal, including political parties, demonstrations, even publishing certain books.”

<snip>...Almost 100% conviction rate

In 2011, Haaretz reported that almost all cases heard by Israeli military courts — 99.74% — resulted in convictions. The military appeals courts also overwhelming sided with Israeli army prosecutors, with 67% of appeals filed by the state accepted, versus only 33% filed by the defense.

Israeli human rights group B'Tselem also reported that of the 835 Palestinian minors that were arrested and tried in military courts between 2005 and 2010 on charges of throwing stones, only one was acquitted.

This reality highlights the widespread challenges attorneys face when trying to defend Palestinians charged within this system.

For many, especially attorneys who hold West Bank-only IDs, the first step of physically accessing Israeli prisons and military courts to speak with their clients is difficult. Military orders are also not made readily available to the lawyers, and transcripts of detainee interrogations are often incomplete and also difficult to access.

“There’s no legal handbook you can buy in a military bookstore. There’s almost no access to the laws or jurisprudence of the military courts,” said Israeli attorney Gaby Lasky, who regularly represents Palestinian detainees, in a report titled, “Defending Palestinian Prisoners.”

Secret evidence is also often used, which makes building a defense nearly impossible. This is especially true in cases of Palestinians held under Israeli administrative-detention orders, which allow Israel to hold Palestinians without charge or trial for indefinite periods and without disclosing any evidence to the defense on “security” grounds.

Unequal application of the law

Although they technically live within the same geographical area, Palestinians and Israeli settlers living in the West Bank are subject to two separate legal systems: Palestinians are subject to the military courts, and settlers are governed by Israeli civil law.

Even after dozens of Israeli settlers vandalized vehicles on an Israeli military base and assaulted a top Israeli army commander in 2011, the Israeli military opposed a government suggestion that settlers also be tried in the military courts.

Prosecuting Israeli settlers in military courts would, IDF sources argued, “create further political rifts within the army, which they characterized as a strategic problem for Israel's military.”

“If a settler violates the law, or if a settler attacks a Palestinian or kills a Palestinian, they would be subject to the civil system inside Israel and receive all the protections [therein],” explained Addameer’s Sahar Francis.

“The Israelis were using this system and the policy of imprisonment to target hundreds of thousands of Palestinians all these years. This is what makes the cases of the prisoners very important. It needs lots of effort in order to protect [Palestinians] against such violations and grave breaches for the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

As it states in the Geneva conventions

From UNICEF's report:

All children in contact with judicial systems should be treated with dignity and
respect at all times. For several years, national lawyers, human rights organizations,
United Nations experts and treaty bodies have been publishing reports of ill treatment
of children who come in contact with the Israeli military detention system.
Following an increasing number of allegations of ill-treatment of children in military
detention, UNICEF has conducted a review of practices related to children who
come into contact with the military detention system, from apprehension, to court
proceedings and outcome.

The review further considers whether the military detention system is in conformity
with the Convention on the Rights of the Child as well as the Convention against
Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Following
an overview of policies and norms related to the prohibition of ill-treatment in
international law, the paper presents the structure and operation of the Israeli
military detention system, including the legal framework, establishment of a juvenile
military court, age of criminal responsibility and penalties under military law. The
paper also reviews the legal safeguards in place against ill-treatment under military
law and discusses their conformity with the norms, guarantees and safeguards found
in international law. Subsequently, the treatment of children in the military detention
system is presented, following the passage of children through the system.
This paper is a result of this review and analysis of practices. It concludes that the
ill-treatment of children who come in contact with the military detention system
appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized throughout the process,
from the moment of arrest until the child’s prosecution and eventual conviction and
sentencing.

It is understood that in no other country are children systematically tried by juvenile
military courts that, by definition, fall short of providing the necessary guarantees
to ensure respect for their rights. All children prosecuted for offences they allegedly
committed should be treated in accordance with international juvenile justice
standards, which provide them with special protection. Most of these protections are
enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of the Child.​

Not a legally binding article just recommendations and wishes, the Geneva conventions are law along with the IHL and they set out the ground rules. Now when the Palestinians learn to treat Israeli children in the manner they want their children treat then there might be a change in the attitudes

What Israeli children do the Palestinians hold in their prisons or in detention?

NONE as they prefer to torture them, sexually abuse them slit their throats and then defile their bodies once they are dead. Or haven't you been reading the papers regarding the deaths of Israeli children at the hands of the Palestinians. Or is that the news of this is suppressed in the USA because Obama does not want Americans to see the truth about the Palestinians.

 

[Phoenall]

Because they are not subject to martial law under the Geneva conventions, it is that simple a concept to understand.

So you use that as an excuse to condone the abuse of children? Israel routinely ignores the Geneva conventions particlarly in the treatment of Palestinian children.

No it is the reason for the disparity. Do provide examples of the Israeli's being in breach of the Geneva conventions with the actual Geneva conventions in full. Not the usual half addressed and incomplete sections that meet with your POV.

How about *you* provide evidence that this treatment of children in the military justice system is in compliance with the Geneva conventions?

I have by instructing you to read them in full and here they are from the people who manage them



Geneva Conventions

No you haven't. You've posted a link to a lengthy article because you are either too lazy or the material supporting the claim doesn't exist.

Or because the number of articles in all 4 Geneva conventions that apply to the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict would take up far too much room on this board. With the Geneva conventions you need to cross reference with all the articles so you arrive at the full picture, not just take one small part because it meets with your POV and claim that that is the only part that counts.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, Phoenall, et al,

It has been several years back since we've seriously discussed the "Children" (minors - un-emancipated) issue.

I think the lack of progress on this, and many similar issues, have been a result of a very intensive shift in the Israeli sympathy and frustration with the Hostile Arab Palestinian. The Israelis have been accused of being the belligerent Occupation Authority for so long, that the Israeli doesn't really care any more. OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

I often wondered, given the believe structure of the Jewish People, and the civil nature of the Israeli people in general, why the State of Israel did not build and staff a state-of-the-art, combination Protection and Detention Facility, Treatment and Youth Rehabilitation Center, Basic Education and Vocational Training Activity; for 2000 offenders. And offer an opportunity for apprenticeship programs and grants for college.

The Israelis could be the showcase for the entire region. By far, such a program would have some great rewards down the road, and the cost would be minimal, say as compared to the cost of a flight of F-16 ($15M each).

My conclusion has been that the Israelis believe that the Arab Palestinian would not appreciate an such move; and in fact would object.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...I disagree with this, it's just excusing Israel's actions towards Palestinian minors. Israel is not some third world country. They are a nation constantly extolled as being a beacon of democracy and human rights in a region where both are scarce. Their treatment of minors in the military justice system is long standing, and a bit of a seamy underbelly, especially when compared to the treatment of Jewish juveniles for the same crimes.

When you say: OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

According reports and accounts, they do do real harm and they go against all accepted standards of law concerning the treatment of children. Sexual abuse and threats of sexual abuse? Physical abuse? One of the things pointed out is many cases that should normally be sent to a civil system (either Israeli or Palestinian) end up going through the military system where children are most likely to suffer abuse.

The Geneva conventions state that an occupying power will install a martial law that will treat the criminal elements of the occupied in the same manner as they would be expected to be treated by the nation to who the land belongs. In this case this would be Jordanian law and what ever that law dictates is the maximum the Israeli's can impose. So a copy of the Jordanian legal statutes from 1967 needs to be read and applied to the actions of the Israeli military police force.

What do the Geneva conventions state about the treatment of children? Or, did you skip over that when you "read them in full"? I'll do your work for you this time but I suspect it's not as simple as "just the Geneva Conventions" since there are also Israeli and Palestinian civil courts.

Special Protection Of Children During Armed Conflicts Under The Geneva Conventions Regime - [2001] ISILYBIHRL 2

XIII. Detention or Internment of Children
During an armed conflict children can be interned for security reasons or can be detained for violating the penal code.

It has been discussed above that members of the same family and in particular parents and children shall be lodged together in the same place of internment throughout the duration of their internment except when separation of temporary nature is necessitated for certain reasons. Internees may request that their children who are left at liberty without parental care shall be interned with them. Interned members of the same family shall be housed in the same premises and given separate accommodation from other internees together with facilities for leading a proper family life. (Art. 82, IV Gen. Con.) The Detaining Power shall provide maintenance for the support of those dependent on the internees (Art. 81, IV Gen. Con.). Children under fifteen years of age shall be given additional food, in proportion to their physiological needs (Art. 89, IV Gen. Con.). All possible facilities for the education of children shall be ensured. They shall be allowed to attend schools either within the place of internment or outside. Special playing grounds shall be reserved for children and young people.

XIV. Penal and Disciplinary Sanction and Release of Interned Child
Internees including children shall be subject to the laws in force in the territory in which they are detained. The authorities concerned shall take into consideration the age of internee while awarding disciplinary punishment.

The parties to the conflict shall release the internee as soon as possible. They shall endeavour, during the armed conflict, to conclude agreements for the release, the repatriation, the return to places of residence or the accommodation in a neutral country of certain classes of internees in particular children, pregnant women, and mothers with infants and young children among others (Art. 132 of IV Gen. Con.).

The detaining power has been given wide discretion in the matter of release of an internee. This discretion must be exercised liberally in the interest of respect for humanitarian principles. The children are to be specially benefited because of what children represent for the future of humanity. For the same reason, pregnant women, and mothers of infants and young children are also included in the special category of internees to be considered for release, repatriation and accommodation in a neutral country.

With regard to enlistment for work, it is prescribed that a protected person may not be compelled to work unless over the age of 18 years. (Art. 51 of IV Gen. Con.) Therefore the children under 18 years cannot be compelled to work during internment.
​

Children & Detention (from the ICRC):

International humanitarian law and human rights law and standards address a broad range of issues related to the specific needs of children. For example, their families should be notified when they are detained, they should be able to stay in contact with their family, they must be housed separately from adults (other than their own family members) and age-appropriate food, health care and time for physical exercise must be provided. Children should also have access to education and legal support, and oversight systems should be in place for children to lodge complaints. Children have a particular right to privacy, including at all stages of criminal proceedings, to protect them from the stigma of being associated with criminal activity or conflict. Their names, and any other information or images that could identify them should not appear in the public domain without their informed consent, and they should not be exposed to public curiosity.

In international armed conflicts, children with prisoner-of-war status are protected under the Third Geneva Convention and Additional Protocol I and cannot be prosecuted for taking part in hostilities, while child civilians are entitled to protection under the Fourth Geneva Convention and Additional Protocol I, including
when they are detained.

In non-international armed conflicts, children are protected by Article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949, and by Additional Protocol II. Human rights law continues to apply in such situations, in addition to domestic law, and usefully complements the protections afforded to children under humanitarian law. The Convention on the Rights of the Child has been ratified by almost every country in the world.

This is a treaty ratified by Israel.

Jewish Settlers and Palestinians occupy the same territories, under occupation, yet are dealt with in completely different legal systems. It would seem that if the "Geneva Conventions" applied to one, it should apply to the other as well.

Palestinian Children Denied Education in Israeli Prisons - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

UN Committee on Israeli practices concerned about treatment of Palestinian children in detention

“Witnesses informed the Committee that mistreatment of Palestinian children starts from the moment of detention,” said Ambassador Palitha T.B. Kohona, Permanent Representative of Sri Lanka to the UN in New York, and Chairperson of the Committee, at the end of a fact-finding visit to Amman, Cairo and the Gaza Strip.


“Large numbers are routinely detained. Children’s homes are surrounded by Israeli soldiers late at night, sound grenades are fired into the houses, doors are broken down, live shots are often fired; no warrant is presented,” he noted. “Children are tightly bound, blindfolded and forced into the backs of military vehicles.”


Ambassador Kohona explained that parents are not allowed to accompany the detainees, and that family members are insulted, intimidated and at times physically assaulted. According to witnesses, the detention and transfer of children can last for hours, and can often include stops in Israeli settlements, Israeli checkpoints and police or military bases.


“Children are not informed of their rights, including their right to legal representation and to not incriminate themselves,” he warned. In 63% of cases involving Palestinian children, according to testimony received, Israeli officials attempt to pressure them into becoming informants. “The Committee’s view is that this is an unacceptable practice, one that Israel must end immediately.”


“Reports of the interrogation of Palestinian children are of utmost concern to the Committee, as well as conditions of detention generally,” Ambassador Kohona stressed. “Palestinian children in detention are often denied family visits, denied access to legal representation, held in cells with adults, denied access to education, and -even at the age of 12- tried in Israeli military courts.”


“We were dismayed to hear that Israel continues its practice of sentencing children to prison, or to house arrest in homes other than their own families, in effect exiling them from their families,” he said. The Committee was informed by witnesses that there were 192 children in detention, 39 were under the age of 16.

The Committee was also shocked to learn that Israel puts Palestinian children in solitary confinement. “According to testimony received, Israel uses solitary confinement against 12% of Palestinian child detainees,” Ambassador Kohona noted. “This is especially troubling when one considers that Israel arrests about 500 to 700 Palestinian children every year.” ​

 

[Coyote]

Palestinians Find Little Justice In Israeli Military Courts - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

As it states in the Geneva conventions

From UNICEF's report:

All children in contact with judicial systems should be treated with dignity and
respect at all times. For several years, national lawyers, human rights organizations,
United Nations experts and treaty bodies have been publishing reports of ill treatment
of children who come in contact with the Israeli military detention system.
Following an increasing number of allegations of ill-treatment of children in military
detention, UNICEF has conducted a review of practices related to children who
come into contact with the military detention system, from apprehension, to court
proceedings and outcome.

The review further considers whether the military detention system is in conformity
with the Convention on the Rights of the Child as well as the Convention against
Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Following
an overview of policies and norms related to the prohibition of ill-treatment in
international law, the paper presents the structure and operation of the Israeli
military detention system, including the legal framework, establishment of a juvenile
military court, age of criminal responsibility and penalties under military law. The
paper also reviews the legal safeguards in place against ill-treatment under military
law and discusses their conformity with the norms, guarantees and safeguards found
in international law. Subsequently, the treatment of children in the military detention
system is presented, following the passage of children through the system.
This paper is a result of this review and analysis of practices. It concludes that the
ill-treatment of children who come in contact with the military detention system
appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized throughout the process,
from the moment of arrest until the child’s prosecution and eventual conviction and
sentencing.

It is understood that in no other country are children systematically tried by juvenile
military courts that, by definition, fall short of providing the necessary guarantees
to ensure respect for their rights. All children prosecuted for offences they allegedly
committed should be treated in accordance with international juvenile justice
standards, which provide them with special protection. Most of these protections are
enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of the Child.​

Not a legally binding article just recommendations and wishes, the Geneva conventions are law along with the IHL and they set out the ground rules. Now when the Palestinians learn to treat Israeli children in the manner they want their children treat then there might be a change in the attitudes

What Israeli children do the Palestinians hold in their prisons or in detention?

NONE as they prefer to torture them, sexually abuse them slit their throats and then defile their bodies once they are dead. Or haven't you been reading the papers regarding the deaths of Israeli children at the hands of the Palestinians. Or is that the news of this is suppressed in the USA because Obama does not want Americans to see the truth about the Palestinians.

Exactly. None.

 

[Coyote]

So you use that as an excuse to condone the abuse of children? Israel routinely ignores the Geneva conventions particlarly in the treatment of Palestinian children.

No it is the reason for the disparity. Do provide examples of the Israeli's being in breach of the Geneva conventions with the actual Geneva conventions in full. Not the usual half addressed and incomplete sections that meet with your POV.

How about *you* provide evidence that this treatment of children in the military justice system is in compliance with the Geneva conventions?

I have by instructing you to read them in full and here they are from the people who manage them



Geneva Conventions

No you haven't. You've posted a link to a lengthy article because you are either too lazy or the material supporting the claim doesn't exist.

Or because the number of articles in all 4 Geneva conventions that apply to the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict would take up far too much room on this board. With the Geneva conventions you need to cross reference with all the articles so you arrive at the full picture, not just take one small part because it meets with your POV and claim that that is the only part that counts.

I shall wait upon your extensive cross referencing in order to provide a full picture of why Israel is allowed to abuse children in it's custody.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Coyote, Phoenall, et al,

It has been several years back since we've seriously discussed the "Children" (minors - un-emancipated) issue.

I think the lack of progress on this, and many similar issues, have been a result of a very intensive shift in the Israeli sympathy and frustration with the Hostile Arab Palestinian. The Israelis have been accused of being the belligerent Occupation Authority for so long, that the Israeli doesn't really care any more. OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

I often wondered, given the believe structure of the Jewish People, and the civil nature of the Israeli people in general, why the State of Israel did not build and staff a state-of-the-art, combination Protection and Detention Facility, Treatment and Youth Rehabilitation Center, Basic Education and Vocational Training Activity; for 2000 offenders. And offer an opportunity for apprenticeship programs and grants for college.

The Israelis could be the showcase for the entire region. By far, such a program would have some great rewards down the road, and the cost would be minimal, say as compared to the cost of a flight of F-16 ($15M each).

My conclusion has been that the Israelis believe that the Arab Palestinian would not appreciate an such move; and in fact would object.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...I disagree with this, it's just excusing Israel's actions towards Palestinian minors. Israel is not some third world country. They are a nation constantly extolled as being a beacon of democracy and human rights in a region where both are scarce. Their treatment of minors in the military justice system is long standing, and a bit of a seamy underbelly, especially when compared to the treatment of Jewish juveniles for the same crimes.

When you say: OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

According reports and accounts, they do do real harm and they go against all accepted standards of law concerning the treatment of children. Sexual abuse and threats of sexual abuse? Physical abuse? One of the things pointed out is many cases that should normally be sent to a civil system (either Israeli or Palestinian) end up going through the military system where children are most likely to suffer abuse.

The Geneva conventions state that an occupying power will install a martial law that will treat the criminal elements of the occupied in the same manner as they would be expected to be treated by the nation to who the land belongs. In this case this would be Jordanian law and what ever that law dictates is the maximum the Israeli's can impose. So a copy of the Jordanian legal statutes from 1967 needs to be read and applied to the actions of the Israeli military police force.

Did you miss this part?

Even when the definition of protected persons is set out in this way, it may seem rather complicated. Nevertheless, disregarding points of detail, it will be seen that there are two main classes of protected person: (1) ' enemy nationals ' within the national territory of each of the Parties to the conflict and (2) ' the whole population ' of occupied territories (excluding nationals of the Occupying Power).

https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/COM/380-600007?OpenDocument​

------------------------------

The main question was about the settlers: Are they civilians or not? According to the Geneva Accord they are not. Even according to the Israelis they are not.

A Dialogue with Hamas - Part 1 - Worldpress.org​

 

[Phoenall]

Coyote, Phoenall, et al,

It has been several years back since we've seriously discussed the "Children" (minors - un-emancipated) issue.

I think the lack of progress on this, and many similar issues, have been a result of a very intensive shift in the Israeli sympathy and frustration with the Hostile Arab Palestinian. The Israelis have been accused of being the belligerent Occupation Authority for so long, that the Israeli doesn't really care any more. OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

I often wondered, given the believe structure of the Jewish People, and the civil nature of the Israeli people in general, why the State of Israel did not build and staff a state-of-the-art, combination Protection and Detention Facility, Treatment and Youth Rehabilitation Center, Basic Education and Vocational Training Activity; for 2000 offenders. And offer an opportunity for apprenticeship programs and grants for college.

The Israelis could be the showcase for the entire region. By far, such a program would have some great rewards down the road, and the cost would be minimal, say as compared to the cost of a flight of F-16 ($15M each).

My conclusion has been that the Israelis believe that the Arab Palestinian would not appreciate an such move; and in fact would object.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...I disagree with this, it's just excusing Israel's actions towards Palestinian minors. Israel is not some third world country. They are a nation constantly extolled as being a beacon of democracy and human rights in a region where both are scarce. Their treatment of minors in the military justice system is long standing, and a bit of a seamy underbelly, especially when compared to the treatment of Jewish juveniles for the same crimes.

When you say: OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

According reports and accounts, they do do real harm and they go against all accepted standards of law concerning the treatment of children. Sexual abuse and threats of sexual abuse? Physical abuse? One of the things pointed out is many cases that should normally be sent to a civil system (either Israeli or Palestinian) end up going through the military system where children are most likely to suffer abuse.

The Geneva conventions state that an occupying power will install a martial law that will treat the criminal elements of the occupied in the same manner as they would be expected to be treated by the nation to who the land belongs. In this case this would be Jordanian law and what ever that law dictates is the maximum the Israeli's can impose. So a copy of the Jordanian legal statutes from 1967 needs to be read and applied to the actions of the Israeli military police force.

What do the Geneva conventions state about the treatment of children? Or, did you skip over that when you "read them in full"? I'll do your work for you this time but I suspect it's not as simple as "just the Geneva Conventions" since there are also Israeli and Palestinian civil courts.

Special Protection Of Children During Armed Conflicts Under The Geneva Conventions Regime - [2001] ISILYBIHRL 2

XIII. Detention or Internment of Children
During an armed conflict children can be interned for security reasons or can be detained for violating the penal code.

It has been discussed above that members of the same family and in particular parents and children shall be lodged together in the same place of internment throughout the duration of their internment except when separation of temporary nature is necessitated for certain reasons. Internees may request that their children who are left at liberty without parental care shall be interned with them. Interned members of the same family shall be housed in the same premises and given separate accommodation from other internees together with facilities for leading a proper family life. (Art. 82, IV Gen. Con.) The Detaining Power shall provide maintenance for the support of those dependent on the internees (Art. 81, IV Gen. Con.). Children under fifteen years of age shall be given additional food, in proportion to their physiological needs (Art. 89, IV Gen. Con.). All possible facilities for the education of children shall be ensured. They shall be allowed to attend schools either within the place of internment or outside. Special playing grounds shall be reserved for children and young people.

XIV. Penal and Disciplinary Sanction and Release of Interned Child
Internees including children shall be subject to the laws in force in the territory in which they are detained. The authorities concerned shall take into consideration the age of internee while awarding disciplinary punishment.

The parties to the conflict shall release the internee as soon as possible. They shall endeavour, during the armed conflict, to conclude agreements for the release, the repatriation, the return to places of residence or the accommodation in a neutral country of certain classes of internees in particular children, pregnant women, and mothers with infants and young children among others (Art. 132 of IV Gen. Con.).

The detaining power has been given wide discretion in the matter of release of an internee. This discretion must be exercised liberally in the interest of respect for humanitarian principles. The children are to be specially benefited because of what children represent for the future of humanity. For the same reason, pregnant women, and mothers of infants and young children are also included in the special category of internees to be considered for release, repatriation and accommodation in a neutral country.

With regard to enlistment for work, it is prescribed that a protected person may not be compelled to work unless over the age of 18 years. (Art. 51 of IV Gen. Con.) Therefore the children under 18 years cannot be compelled to work during internment.
​

Children & Detention (from the ICRC):

International humanitarian law and human rights law and standards address a broad range of issues related to the specific needs of children. For example, their families should be notified when they are detained, they should be able to stay in contact with their family, they must be housed separately from adults (other than their own family members) and age-appropriate food, health care and time for physical exercise must be provided. Children should also have access to education and legal support, and oversight systems should be in place for children to lodge complaints. Children have a particular right to privacy, including at all stages of criminal proceedings, to protect them from the stigma of being associated with criminal activity or conflict. Their names, and any other information or images that could identify them should not appear in the public domain without their informed consent, and they should not be exposed to public curiosity.

In international armed conflicts, children with prisoner-of-war status are protected under the Third Geneva Convention and Additional Protocol I and cannot be prosecuted for taking part in hostilities, while child civilians are entitled to protection under the Fourth Geneva Convention and Additional Protocol I, including
when they are detained.

In non-international armed conflicts, children are protected by Article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949, and by Additional Protocol II. Human rights law continues to apply in such situations, in addition to domestic law, and usefully complements the protections afforded to children under humanitarian law. The Convention on the Rights of the Child has been ratified by almost every country in the world.

This is a treaty ratified by Israel.

Jewish Settlers and Palestinians occupy the same territories, under occupation, yet are dealt with in completely different legal systems. It would seem that if the "Geneva Conventions" applied to one, it should apply to the other as well.

Palestinian Children Denied Education in Israeli Prisons - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

UN Committee on Israeli practices concerned about treatment of Palestinian children in detention

“Witnesses informed the Committee that mistreatment of Palestinian children starts from the moment of detention,” said Ambassador Palitha T.B. Kohona, Permanent Representative of Sri Lanka to the UN in New York, and Chairperson of the Committee, at the end of a fact-finding visit to Amman, Cairo and the Gaza Strip.


“Large numbers are routinely detained. Children’s homes are surrounded by Israeli soldiers late at night, sound grenades are fired into the houses, doors are broken down, live shots are often fired; no warrant is presented,” he noted. “Children are tightly bound, blindfolded and forced into the backs of military vehicles.”


Ambassador Kohona explained that parents are not allowed to accompany the detainees, and that family members are insulted, intimidated and at times physically assaulted. According to witnesses, the detention and transfer of children can last for hours, and can often include stops in Israeli settlements, Israeli checkpoints and police or military bases.


“Children are not informed of their rights, including their right to legal representation and to not incriminate themselves,” he warned. In 63% of cases involving Palestinian children, according to testimony received, Israeli officials attempt to pressure them into becoming informants. “The Committee’s view is that this is an unacceptable practice, one that Israel must end immediately.”


“Reports of the interrogation of Palestinian children are of utmost concern to the Committee, as well as conditions of detention generally,” Ambassador Kohona stressed. “Palestinian children in detention are often denied family visits, denied access to legal representation, held in cells with adults, denied access to education, and -even at the age of 12- tried in Israeli military courts.”


“We were dismayed to hear that Israel continues its practice of sentencing children to prison, or to house arrest in homes other than their own families, in effect exiling them from their families,” he said. The Committee was informed by witnesses that there were 192 children in detention, 39 were under the age of 16.

The Committee was also shocked to learn that Israel puts Palestinian children in solitary confinement. “According to testimony received, Israel uses solitary confinement against 12% of Palestinian child detainees,” Ambassador Kohona noted. “This is especially troubling when one considers that Israel arrests about 500 to 700 Palestinian children every year.” ​

Now look for the ones dealing with occupation and not armed conflict, they are two separate and completely different scenarios.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, Phoenall, et al,

It has been several years back since we've seriously discussed the "Children" (minors - un-emancipated) issue.

I think the lack of progress on this, and many similar issues, have been a result of a very intensive shift in the Israeli sympathy and frustration with the Hostile Arab Palestinian. The Israelis have been accused of being the belligerent Occupation Authority for so long, that the Israeli doesn't really care any more. OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

I often wondered, given the believe structure of the Jewish People, and the civil nature of the Israeli people in general, why the State of Israel did not build and staff a state-of-the-art, combination Protection and Detention Facility, Treatment and Youth Rehabilitation Center, Basic Education and Vocational Training Activity; for 2000 offenders. And offer an opportunity for apprenticeship programs and grants for college.

The Israelis could be the showcase for the entire region. By far, such a program would have some great rewards down the road, and the cost would be minimal, say as compared to the cost of a flight of F-16 ($15M each).

My conclusion has been that the Israelis believe that the Arab Palestinian would not appreciate an such move; and in fact would object.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...I disagree with this, it's just excusing Israel's actions towards Palestinian minors. Israel is not some third world country. They are a nation constantly extolled as being a beacon of democracy and human rights in a region where both are scarce. Their treatment of minors in the military justice system is long standing, and a bit of a seamy underbelly, especially when compared to the treatment of Jewish juveniles for the same crimes.

When you say: OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

According reports and accounts, they do do real harm and they go against all accepted standards of law concerning the treatment of children. Sexual abuse and threats of sexual abuse? Physical abuse? One of the things pointed out is many cases that should normally be sent to a civil system (either Israeli or Palestinian) end up going through the military system where children are most likely to suffer abuse.

The Geneva conventions state that an occupying power will install a martial law that will treat the criminal elements of the occupied in the same manner as they would be expected to be treated by the nation to who the land belongs. In this case this would be Jordanian law and what ever that law dictates is the maximum the Israeli's can impose. So a copy of the Jordanian legal statutes from 1967 needs to be read and applied to the actions of the Israeli military police force.

What do the Geneva conventions state about the treatment of children? Or, did you skip over that when you "read them in full"? I'll do your work for you this time but I suspect it's not as simple as "just the Geneva Conventions" since there are also Israeli and Palestinian civil courts.

Special Protection Of Children During Armed Conflicts Under The Geneva Conventions Regime - [2001] ISILYBIHRL 2

XIII. Detention or Internment of Children
During an armed conflict children can be interned for security reasons or can be detained for violating the penal code.

It has been discussed above that members of the same family and in particular parents and children shall be lodged together in the same place of internment throughout the duration of their internment except when separation of temporary nature is necessitated for certain reasons. Internees may request that their children who are left at liberty without parental care shall be interned with them. Interned members of the same family shall be housed in the same premises and given separate accommodation from other internees together with facilities for leading a proper family life. (Art. 82, IV Gen. Con.) The Detaining Power shall provide maintenance for the support of those dependent on the internees (Art. 81, IV Gen. Con.). Children under fifteen years of age shall be given additional food, in proportion to their physiological needs (Art. 89, IV Gen. Con.). All possible facilities for the education of children shall be ensured. They shall be allowed to attend schools either within the place of internment or outside. Special playing grounds shall be reserved for children and young people.

XIV. Penal and Disciplinary Sanction and Release of Interned Child
Internees including children shall be subject to the laws in force in the territory in which they are detained. The authorities concerned shall take into consideration the age of internee while awarding disciplinary punishment.

The parties to the conflict shall release the internee as soon as possible. They shall endeavour, during the armed conflict, to conclude agreements for the release, the repatriation, the return to places of residence or the accommodation in a neutral country of certain classes of internees in particular children, pregnant women, and mothers with infants and young children among others (Art. 132 of IV Gen. Con.).

The detaining power has been given wide discretion in the matter of release of an internee. This discretion must be exercised liberally in the interest of respect for humanitarian principles. The children are to be specially benefited because of what children represent for the future of humanity. For the same reason, pregnant women, and mothers of infants and young children are also included in the special category of internees to be considered for release, repatriation and accommodation in a neutral country.

With regard to enlistment for work, it is prescribed that a protected person may not be compelled to work unless over the age of 18 years. (Art. 51 of IV Gen. Con.) Therefore the children under 18 years cannot be compelled to work during internment.
​

Children & Detention (from the ICRC):

International humanitarian law and human rights law and standards address a broad range of issues related to the specific needs of children. For example, their families should be notified when they are detained, they should be able to stay in contact with their family, they must be housed separately from adults (other than their own family members) and age-appropriate food, health care and time for physical exercise must be provided. Children should also have access to education and legal support, and oversight systems should be in place for children to lodge complaints. Children have a particular right to privacy, including at all stages of criminal proceedings, to protect them from the stigma of being associated with criminal activity or conflict. Their names, and any other information or images that could identify them should not appear in the public domain without their informed consent, and they should not be exposed to public curiosity.

In international armed conflicts, children with prisoner-of-war status are protected under the Third Geneva Convention and Additional Protocol I and cannot be prosecuted for taking part in hostilities, while child civilians are entitled to protection under the Fourth Geneva Convention and Additional Protocol I, including
when they are detained.

In non-international armed conflicts, children are protected by Article 3 common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949, and by Additional Protocol II. Human rights law continues to apply in such situations, in addition to domestic law, and usefully complements the protections afforded to children under humanitarian law. The Convention on the Rights of the Child has been ratified by almost every country in the world.

This is a treaty ratified by Israel.

Jewish Settlers and Palestinians occupy the same territories, under occupation, yet are dealt with in completely different legal systems. It would seem that if the "Geneva Conventions" applied to one, it should apply to the other as well.

Palestinian Children Denied Education in Israeli Prisons - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

UN Committee on Israeli practices concerned about treatment of Palestinian children in detention

“Witnesses informed the Committee that mistreatment of Palestinian children starts from the moment of detention,” said Ambassador Palitha T.B. Kohona, Permanent Representative of Sri Lanka to the UN in New York, and Chairperson of the Committee, at the end of a fact-finding visit to Amman, Cairo and the Gaza Strip.


“Large numbers are routinely detained. Children’s homes are surrounded by Israeli soldiers late at night, sound grenades are fired into the houses, doors are broken down, live shots are often fired; no warrant is presented,” he noted. “Children are tightly bound, blindfolded and forced into the backs of military vehicles.”


Ambassador Kohona explained that parents are not allowed to accompany the detainees, and that family members are insulted, intimidated and at times physically assaulted. According to witnesses, the detention and transfer of children can last for hours, and can often include stops in Israeli settlements, Israeli checkpoints and police or military bases.


“Children are not informed of their rights, including their right to legal representation and to not incriminate themselves,” he warned. In 63% of cases involving Palestinian children, according to testimony received, Israeli officials attempt to pressure them into becoming informants. “The Committee’s view is that this is an unacceptable practice, one that Israel must end immediately.”


“Reports of the interrogation of Palestinian children are of utmost concern to the Committee, as well as conditions of detention generally,” Ambassador Kohona stressed. “Palestinian children in detention are often denied family visits, denied access to legal representation, held in cells with adults, denied access to education, and -even at the age of 12- tried in Israeli military courts.”


“We were dismayed to hear that Israel continues its practice of sentencing children to prison, or to house arrest in homes other than their own families, in effect exiling them from their families,” he said. The Committee was informed by witnesses that there were 192 children in detention, 39 were under the age of 16.

The Committee was also shocked to learn that Israel puts Palestinian children in solitary confinement. “According to testimony received, Israel uses solitary confinement against 12% of Palestinian child detainees,” Ambassador Kohona noted. “This is especially troubling when one considers that Israel arrests about 500 to 700 Palestinian children every year.” ​

Now look for the ones dealing with occupation and not armed conflict, they are two separate and completely different scenarios.

No. It's time for you to pull out the ones dealing with CHILDREN.

You can start here: Customary IHL - Practice Relating to Rule 135. Children

 

[Phoenall]

As it states in the Geneva conventions

From UNICEF's report:

All children in contact with judicial systems should be treated with dignity and
respect at all times. For several years, national lawyers, human rights organizations,
United Nations experts and treaty bodies have been publishing reports of ill treatment
of children who come in contact with the Israeli military detention system.
Following an increasing number of allegations of ill-treatment of children in military
detention, UNICEF has conducted a review of practices related to children who
come into contact with the military detention system, from apprehension, to court
proceedings and outcome.

The review further considers whether the military detention system is in conformity
with the Convention on the Rights of the Child as well as the Convention against
Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Following
an overview of policies and norms related to the prohibition of ill-treatment in
international law, the paper presents the structure and operation of the Israeli
military detention system, including the legal framework, establishment of a juvenile
military court, age of criminal responsibility and penalties under military law. The
paper also reviews the legal safeguards in place against ill-treatment under military
law and discusses their conformity with the norms, guarantees and safeguards found
in international law. Subsequently, the treatment of children in the military detention
system is presented, following the passage of children through the system.
This paper is a result of this review and analysis of practices. It concludes that the
ill-treatment of children who come in contact with the military detention system
appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized throughout the process,
from the moment of arrest until the child’s prosecution and eventual conviction and
sentencing.

It is understood that in no other country are children systematically tried by juvenile
military courts that, by definition, fall short of providing the necessary guarantees
to ensure respect for their rights. All children prosecuted for offences they allegedly
committed should be treated in accordance with international juvenile justice
standards, which provide them with special protection. Most of these protections are
enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of the Child.​

Not a legally binding article just recommendations and wishes, the Geneva conventions are law along with the IHL and they set out the ground rules. Now when the Palestinians learn to treat Israeli children in the manner they want their children treat then there might be a change in the attitudes

What Israeli children do the Palestinians hold in their prisons or in detention?

NONE as they prefer to torture them, sexually abuse them slit their throats and then defile their bodies once they are dead. Or haven't you been reading the papers regarding the deaths of Israeli children at the hands of the Palestinians. Or is that the news of this is suppressed in the USA because Obama does not want Americans to see the truth about the Palestinians.

Exactly. None.

YEP because they brutally rape them, torture them and the murder them before defiling their dead bodies and dumping them like rubbish.

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF THE ISREALIS DID THAT TO PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ?

 

[Phoenall]

No it is the reason for the disparity. Do provide examples of the Israeli's being in breach of the Geneva conventions with the actual Geneva conventions in full. Not the usual half addressed and incomplete sections that meet with your POV.

How about *you* provide evidence that this treatment of children in the military justice system is in compliance with the Geneva conventions?

I have by instructing you to read them in full and here they are from the people who manage them



Geneva Conventions

No you haven't. You've posted a link to a lengthy article because you are either too lazy or the material supporting the claim doesn't exist.

Or because the number of articles in all 4 Geneva conventions that apply to the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict would take up far too much room on this board. With the Geneva conventions you need to cross reference with all the articles so you arrive at the full picture, not just take one small part because it meets with your POV and claim that that is the only part that counts.

I shall wait upon your extensive cross referencing in order to provide a full picture of why Israel is allowed to abuse children in it's custody.

I gave you the means to see where you are wrong and my post would not alter your POV one iota. You are so set in your islamonazi hatred and racism that nothing short of your own being targeted will ever make you change.

 

[Phoenall]

Coyote, Phoenall, et al,

It has been several years back since we've seriously discussed the "Children" (minors - un-emancipated) issue.

I think the lack of progress on this, and many similar issues, have been a result of a very intensive shift in the Israeli sympathy and frustration with the Hostile Arab Palestinian. The Israelis have been accused of being the belligerent Occupation Authority for so long, that the Israeli doesn't really care any more. OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

I often wondered, given the believe structure of the Jewish People, and the civil nature of the Israeli people in general, why the State of Israel did not build and staff a state-of-the-art, combination Protection and Detention Facility, Treatment and Youth Rehabilitation Center, Basic Education and Vocational Training Activity; for 2000 offenders. And offer an opportunity for apprenticeship programs and grants for college.

The Israelis could be the showcase for the entire region. By far, such a program would have some great rewards down the road, and the cost would be minimal, say as compared to the cost of a flight of F-16 ($15M each).

My conclusion has been that the Israelis believe that the Arab Palestinian would not appreciate an such move; and in fact would object.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco...I disagree with this, it's just excusing Israel's actions towards Palestinian minors. Israel is not some third world country. They are a nation constantly extolled as being a beacon of democracy and human rights in a region where both are scarce. Their treatment of minors in the military justice system is long standing, and a bit of a seamy underbelly, especially when compared to the treatment of Jewish juveniles for the same crimes.

When you say: OH, they won't do any real harm, but they are not going to treat the children much differently then a detention authority would in any other Arab Nation.

According reports and accounts, they do do real harm and they go against all accepted standards of law concerning the treatment of children. Sexual abuse and threats of sexual abuse? Physical abuse? One of the things pointed out is many cases that should normally be sent to a civil system (either Israeli or Palestinian) end up going through the military system where children are most likely to suffer abuse.

The Geneva conventions state that an occupying power will install a martial law that will treat the criminal elements of the occupied in the same manner as they would be expected to be treated by the nation to who the land belongs. In this case this would be Jordanian law and what ever that law dictates is the maximum the Israeli's can impose. So a copy of the Jordanian legal statutes from 1967 needs to be read and applied to the actions of the Israeli military police force.

Did you miss this part?

Even when the definition of protected persons is set out in this way, it may seem rather complicated. Nevertheless, disregarding points of detail, it will be seen that there are two main classes of protected person: (1) ' enemy nationals ' within the national territory of each of the Parties to the conflict and (2) ' the whole population ' of occupied territories (excluding nationals of the Occupying Power).

https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/COM/380-600007?OpenDocument​

------------------------------

The main question was about the settlers: Are they civilians or not? According to the Geneva Accord they are not. Even according to the Israelis they are not.

A Dialogue with Hamas - Part 1 - Worldpress.org​

And the rest as your cherry picked part is out of context

 

[Coyote]

How about *you* provide evidence that this treatment of children in the military justice system is in compliance with the Geneva conventions?

I have by instructing you to read them in full and here they are from the people who manage them



Geneva Conventions

No you haven't. You've posted a link to a lengthy article because you are either too lazy or the material supporting the claim doesn't exist.

Or because the number of articles in all 4 Geneva conventions that apply to the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict would take up far too much room on this board. With the Geneva conventions you need to cross reference with all the articles so you arrive at the full picture, not just take one small part because it meets with your POV and claim that that is the only part that counts.

I shall wait upon your extensive cross referencing in order to provide a full picture of why Israel is allowed to abuse children in it's custody.

I gave you the means to see where you are wrong and my post would not alter your POV one iota. You are so set in your islamonazi hatred and racism that nothing short of your own being targeted will ever make you change.

Translation: you are unable to provide what you demand of others so you will resort to throwing monkey poo.

Please provide the text that gives the full picture of why Israel is allowed to abuse children in it's custody. You can do that, right?

 

[Coyote]

From UNICEF's report:

All children in contact with judicial systems should be treated with dignity and
respect at all times. For several years, national lawyers, human rights organizations,
United Nations experts and treaty bodies have been publishing reports of ill treatment
of children who come in contact with the Israeli military detention system.
Following an increasing number of allegations of ill-treatment of children in military
detention, UNICEF has conducted a review of practices related to children who
come into contact with the military detention system, from apprehension, to court
proceedings and outcome.

The review further considers whether the military detention system is in conformity
with the Convention on the Rights of the Child as well as the Convention against
Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Following
an overview of policies and norms related to the prohibition of ill-treatment in
international law, the paper presents the structure and operation of the Israeli
military detention system, including the legal framework, establishment of a juvenile
military court, age of criminal responsibility and penalties under military law. The
paper also reviews the legal safeguards in place against ill-treatment under military
law and discusses their conformity with the norms, guarantees and safeguards found
in international law. Subsequently, the treatment of children in the military detention
system is presented, following the passage of children through the system.
This paper is a result of this review and analysis of practices. It concludes that the
ill-treatment of children who come in contact with the military detention system
appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized throughout the process,
from the moment of arrest until the child’s prosecution and eventual conviction and
sentencing.

It is understood that in no other country are children systematically tried by juvenile
military courts that, by definition, fall short of providing the necessary guarantees
to ensure respect for their rights. All children prosecuted for offences they allegedly
committed should be treated in accordance with international juvenile justice
standards, which provide them with special protection. Most of these protections are
enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of the Child.​

Not a legally binding article just recommendations and wishes, the Geneva conventions are law along with the IHL and they set out the ground rules. Now when the Palestinians learn to treat Israeli children in the manner they want their children treat then there might be a change in the attitudes

What Israeli children do the Palestinians hold in their prisons or in detention?

NONE as they prefer to torture them, sexually abuse them slit their throats and then defile their bodies once they are dead. Or haven't you been reading the papers regarding the deaths of Israeli children at the hands of the Palestinians. Or is that the news of this is suppressed in the USA because Obama does not want Americans to see the truth about the Palestinians.

Exactly. None.

YEP because they brutally rape them, torture them and the murder them before defiling their dead bodies and dumping them like rubbish.

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF THE ISREALIS DID THAT TO PALESTINIAN CHILDREN ?

Nice deflection.

Please provide evidence that the Palestinians routinely brutally rape and torture and defile dead Israeli children, particularly those whom they hold in custody.

 

[Phoenall]

I have by instructing you to read them in full and here they are from the people who manage them



Geneva Conventions

No you haven't. You've posted a link to a lengthy article because you are either too lazy or the material supporting the claim doesn't exist.

Or because the number of articles in all 4 Geneva conventions that apply to the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict would take up far too much room on this board. With the Geneva conventions you need to cross reference with all the articles so you arrive at the full picture, not just take one small part because it meets with your POV and claim that that is the only part that counts.

I shall wait upon your extensive cross referencing in order to provide a full picture of why Israel is allowed to abuse children in it's custody.

I gave you the means to see where you are wrong and my post would not alter your POV one iota. You are so set in your islamonazi hatred and racism that nothing short of your own being targeted will ever make you change.

Translation: you are unable to provide what you demand of others so you will resort to throwing monkey poo.

Please provide the text that gives the full picture of why Israel is allowed to abuse children in it's custody. You can do that, right?

No I gave you the means because it is against the rules to cut and paste the full set of documents, or did you forget that you reprimanded someone for that last week. Is that what you want so you can use your "hand of god" against the opposition and have them silenced. There are 5 Geneva conventions in all and they are very comprehensive and would take every bit of this boards bandwidth. So if you give your go ahead I will post them in full, agreed.

 

[Phoenall]

I have by instructing you to read them in full and here they are from the people who manage them



Geneva Conventions

No you haven't. You've posted a link to a lengthy article because you are either too lazy or the material supporting the claim doesn't exist.

Or because the number of articles in all 4 Geneva conventions that apply to the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict would take up far too much room on this board. With the Geneva conventions you need to cross reference with all the articles so you arrive at the full picture, not just take one small part because it meets with your POV and claim that that is the only part that counts.

I shall wait upon your extensive cross referencing in order to provide a full picture of why Israel is allowed to abuse children in it's custody.

I gave you the means to see where you are wrong and my post would not alter your POV one iota. You are so set in your islamonazi hatred and racism that nothing short of your own being targeted will ever make you change.

Translation: you are unable to provide what you demand of others so you will resort to throwing monkey poo.

Please provide the text that gives the full picture of why Israel is allowed to abuse children in it's custody. You can do that, right?

First you need to show your evidence from unbiased and non partisan sources that this is common practise, and not a once in a lifetime action.