Trolling and politics

[EvMetro]

Politics have always been ugly. As seen below in the clip from Wikipedia, even warfare is used in political discourse:

"A variety of methods are deployed in politics, which include promoting one's own political views among people, negotiation with other political subjects, making laws, and exercising force, including warfare against adversaries."

Politics - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

We can't kill each other on a political board, but normal political discourse most certainly includes saying the worst things we can think of to our fellow humans. Political boards are places specifically designed for the ugliest type of dialog there is, which is political discussion. Almost everything I read from my political opponents is vile, disgusting trolling, but this is because trolling IS political discourse. Trolling is the name of the language used in political discussion. On gardening or engineering forums, trolling does not fit in and can easily be eliminated, but not so on political boards where trolling is the language of politics.

The notion that the language of politics can be eliminated on a politics specific forum is absurd. Complaining about or censoring perceived trolling on a political board is absurd. On a gardening forum yes, but NEVER on a political board.

 

[EvMetro]

Exploiting the word "trolling", which actually does have a meaning on non political sites, is a popular political weapon. Admins can label posts as trolling like social media labels things they don't like as hate speech, and posts can then be censored for supposed trolling. Members can complain about and report trolling in an effort to exploit rules and manipulate mods into censoring their political opponents. Yep, trolling is EXTREMELY political, and it is the language of politics. It will always be the language of political boards.

 

[Jets]

The other problem is how to define “trolling”.

It can be a subjective term.

 

[Gdjjr]

making laws,

Always favor, usually political donors- and they make law writers appear to be relevant.

 

[EvMetro]

When you feel like somebody is trolling you, it is very likely that they hate you. This is par for the course.

The other problem is how to define “trolling”.

It can be a subjective term.

Textbook politics. I like watching campaign trolling. Attack ads are classic politics/ trolling.

 

[Circe]

Exploiting the word "trolling", which actually does have a meaning on non political sites, is a popular political weapon. Admins can label posts as trolling like social media labels things they don't like as hate speech, and posts can then be censored for supposed trolling. Members can complain about and report trolling in an effort to exploit rules and manipulate mods into censoring their political opponents. Yep, trolling is EXTREMELY political, and it is the language of politics. It will always be the language of political boards.

I don't agree. Trolling is deliberate trouble-making, often personal animus. Trolling is also a word used for foreign propaganda, such as all those awful Russkies in 2016, remember Putin's Minions?

I'm saying "trolling" can refer to bad behavior that is not merely political.

That said, sure, the term is tossed around as a way to defeat one's enemies on a political board. I have been called a troll countless times, but so has everyone here. It's a pretty useless term, except when we really are under attack by foreign propagandists, which sure does happen sometimes.

 

[Rigby5]

Trolling is bad because it is intended only to cause a harmful emotional reaction instead of actually making a rational argument that could change the opinion of others in some way.

The most common way to troll is to attack something that can't ever be determined, like the motives of a political faction.

 

[EvMetro]

I don't agree. Trolling is deliberate trouble-making, often personal animus

Classic politics. Much nicer than killing each other.

 

[EvMetro]

Trolling is bad because it is intended only to cause a harmful emotional reaction instead of actually making a rational argument that could change the opinion of others in some way.

The most common way to troll is to attack something that can't ever be determined, like the motives of a political faction.

Retaliation and spite are ugly indeed. Textbook politics.

 

[Circe]

I don't agree. Trolling is deliberate trouble-making, often personal animus

Classic politics. Much nicer than killing each other.

Nicer than killing each other? That's not how I see it: I see the current national animus as a lead-in to civil war. That's exactly how it worked the last time, after all. The animosity expressed constantly in the 1850s was spectacular, and several prominent citizens, including Ralph Waldo Emerson, paid for John Brown's attack on Harpers Ferry.

What you are calling trolling is fight talk.

 

[task0778]

The notion that the language of politics can be eliminated on a politics specific forum is absurd.

Nobody is trying to eliminate the language of politics on this board, that notion is absurd.

Complaining about or censoring perceived trolling on a political board is absurd.

In order to foster reasonable and open political discussion, this board and others employ rules and enforce them to reduce inflammatory or personal attacks to some degree. During my time here I see a fairly substantial range of opinions; generally speaking, anyone can say what they want but it has to be within reason. Moderator are selected based on experience and judgement, kinda like a baseball umpire calling balls and strikes. Sometimes on a close pitch the call could go either way, perhaps depending on the Mod; but I don't spend any time worrying about it, I just go about my business.

A good rule of thumb: quityerbitchin and play nice with everyone. Focus on the message and not the messager. Do that and you'll be okay.

 

[EvMetro]

I don't agree. Trolling is deliberate trouble-making, often personal animus

Classic politics. Much nicer than killing each other.

Nicer than killing each other? That's not how I see it: I see the current national animus as a lead-in to civil war. That's exactly how it worked the last time, after all. The animosity expressed constantly in the 1850s was spectacular, and several prominent citizens, including Ralph Waldo Emerson, paid for John Brown's attack on Harpers Ferry.

What you are calling trolling is fight talk.

Political warfare is nothing new, it is par for the course. See the wiki quote in the opening post.

 

[EvMetro]

The notion that the language of politics can be eliminated on a politics specific forum is absurd.

Nobody is trying to eliminate the language of politics on this board, that notion is absurd.

Complaining about or censoring perceived trolling on a political board is absurd.

In order to foster reasonable and open political discussion, this board and others employ rules and enforce them to reduce inflammatory or personal attacks to some degree. During my time here I see a fairly substantial range of opinions; generally speaking, anyone can say what they want but it has to be within reason. Moderator are selected based on experience and judgement, kinda like a baseball umpire calling balls and strikes. Sometimes on a close pitch the call could go either way, perhaps depending on the Mod; but I don't spend any time worrying about it, I just go about my business.

A good rule of thumb: quityerbitchin and play nice with everyone. Focus on the message and not the messager. Do that and you'll be okay.

Do you trust Facebook and Twitter to determine what hate speech is?

 

[EvMetro]

The notion that the language of politics can be eliminated on a politics specific forum is absurd.

Nobody is trying to eliminate the language of politics on this board, that notion is absurd.

Complaining about or censoring perceived trolling on a political board is absurd.

In order to foster reasonable and open political discussion, this board and others employ rules and enforce them to reduce inflammatory or personal attacks to some degree. During my time here I see a fairly substantial range of opinions; generally speaking, anyone can say what they want but it has to be within reason. Moderator are selected based on experience and judgement, kinda like a baseball umpire calling balls and strikes. Sometimes on a close pitch the call could go either way, perhaps depending on the Mod; but I don't spend any time worrying about it, I just go about my business.

A good rule of thumb: quityerbitchin and play nice with everyone. Focus on the message and not the messager. Do that and you'll be okay.

Mods really are needed here, but only to patrol spam accounts and spam bots.

 

[EvMetro]

The bloodshed from political warfare could fill an ocean, because people hate to be governed by those who they hate. Fortunately for us here on a political forum, nobody can kill each other. What we see instead is the trolling, which is the native language of politics. We still hate to be governed and we still hate those who do it, but this is peaceful environment of trolling instead of bloodshed.

 

[Mac1958]

The other problem is how to define “trolling”.
It can be a subjective term.

Even more difficult, now that words have virtually no solid meaning any more.

 

[task0778]

The notion that the language of politics can be eliminated on a politics specific forum is absurd.

Nobody is trying to eliminate the language of politics on this board, that notion is absurd.

Complaining about or censoring perceived trolling on a political board is absurd.

In order to foster reasonable and open political discussion, this board and others employ rules and enforce them to reduce inflammatory or personal attacks to some degree. During my time here I see a fairly substantial range of opinions; generally speaking, anyone can say what they want but it has to be within reason. Moderator are selected based on experience and judgement, kinda like a baseball umpire calling balls and strikes. Sometimes on a close pitch the call could go either way, perhaps depending on the Mod; but I don't spend any time worrying about it, I just go about my business.

A good rule of thumb: quityerbitchin and play nice with everyone. Focus on the message and not the messager. Do that and you'll be okay.

Do you trust Facebook and Twitter to determine what hate speech is?

No, I do not. But, they are not specifically political boards, and neither is the USMB actually. Presumably you are referring to the Politics Forum here, right? To a certain extent, hate speech is hard to quantify, and IMHO the USMB make a concerted effort to walk that fine line between what is acceptable and what isn't, and that line is apt to vary from Mod to Mod and maybe day to day. I do have a Facebook account that I use to converse with my far-flung family; I do see political stuff on FB from time to time, my brother is a dyed in the wool conservative and my other brother is an idiot liberal. He married a liberal woman and I think she brainwashed him, but nonetheless.

Mods really are needed here, but only to keep spam accounts and spam bots.

It's more than that. Their job is also to foster the flow of what I would call reasonable and open political discussion that can be very attractive to a lot of people on the 'net. So there's a business aspect to it, but more than that this place can be a place to exchange perspectives and learn something if a member is willing to do so. To me then, this place is also a public service, if this country is ever to heal it's divisiveness it will have to come via communicating with each other, and social media is or could be a central player in that. And if that is ever to occur then it's going to have to offer an open and honest means of discussion that is relatively free of hate speech and the like, but without limiting too much each person's free speech. Not the easiest line to manage.

About 10 years ago, I used to post here under a different name. Let me tell you, this place then was an internet version of the wild west, insults and negs flowed left and right all the time and newbies were often harshly targeted and most moved on to other forums. Management at the time made a concerted effort to change the culture around here, and what you see here today is a far cry from what it used to be. So, change is possible, but it ain't going to happen overnight.

This place is essentially a means to whatever end you want to achieve. Used wisely and with some discretion, it can be very rewarding; you can learn shit here. Otherwise, you are basically wasting your time IMHO.

 

[EvMetro]

The notion that the language of politics can be eliminated on a politics specific forum is absurd.

Nobody is trying to eliminate the language of politics on this board, that notion is absurd.

Complaining about or censoring perceived trolling on a political board is absurd.

In order to foster reasonable and open political discussion, this board and others employ rules and enforce them to reduce inflammatory or personal attacks to some degree. During my time here I see a fairly substantial range of opinions; generally speaking, anyone can say what they want but it has to be within reason. Moderator are selected based on experience and judgement, kinda like a baseball umpire calling balls and strikes. Sometimes on a close pitch the call could go either way, perhaps depending on the Mod; but I don't spend any time worrying about it, I just go about my business.

A good rule of thumb: quityerbitchin and play nice with everyone. Focus on the message and not the messager. Do that and you'll be okay.

Do you trust Facebook and Twitter to determine what hate speech is?

No, I do not. But, they are not specifically political boards, and neither is the USMB actually. Presumably you are referring to the Politics Forum here, right? To a certain extent, hate speech is hard to quantify, and IMHO the USMB make a concerted effort to walk that fine line between what is acceptable and what isn't, and that line is apt to vary from Mod to Mod and maybe day to day. I do have a Facebook account that I use to converse with my far-flung family; I do see political stuff on FB from time to time, my brother is a dyed in the wool conservative and my other brother is an idiot liberal. He married a liberal woman and I think she brainwashed him, but nonetheless.

Mods really are needed here, but only to keep spam accounts and spam bots.

It's more than that. Their job is also to foster the flow of what I would call reasonable and open political discussion that can be very attractive to a lot of people on the 'net. So there's a business aspect to it, but more than that this place can be a place to exchange perspectives and learn something if a member is willing to do so. To me then, this place is also a public service, if this country is ever to heal it's divisiveness it will have to come via communicating with each other, and social media is or could be a central player in that. And if that is ever to occur then it's going to have to offer an open and honest means of discussion that is relatively free of hate speech and the like, but without limiting too much each person's free speech. Not the easiest line to manage.

About 10 years ago, I used to post here under a different name. Let me tell you, this place then was an internet version of the wild west, insults and negs flowed left and right all the time and newbies were often harshly targeted and most moved on to other forums. Management at the time made a concerted effort to change the culture around here, and what you see here today is a far cry from what it used to be. So, change is possible, but it ain't going to happen overnight.

This place is essentially a means to whatever end you want to achieve. Used wisely and with some discretion, it can be very rewarding; you can learn shit here. Otherwise, you are basically wasting your time IMHO.

The wild west is a great way to describe HONEST political discussion and debate. If mods get their hands into the mix of real political discourse, it is fake discussion. All mods can really do without altering real and honest political discourse is stick to cleaning up the spam bot accounts. If they are claiming to be cleaning up trolling, they are just applying their own bias and censoring people. Trolling is the language of politics, just like bombs and weapons of war are.

 

[EvMetro]

Civilized political debate or discussion is an oxymoron. People can pretend for a little while, but that turns into a time bomb of even more hate. I absolutely prefer seeing all the lefties troll my threads with evasion, which they do, than to see them silenced. Even if it sounds like juvenile Beavis and butthead posts trolling me from a basement or a foreign enemy expressing their deepest hatred for me, it is better than fascism and censorship. At least it is what they really want to say. Trying to fix trolling on a political board where trolling is the native language is ridiculous.

 

[forkup]

Civilized political debate or discussion is an oxymoron. People can pretend for a little while, but that turns into a time bomb of even more hate. I absolutely prefer seeing all the lefties troll my threads with evasion, which they do, than to see them silenced. Even if it sounds like juvenile Beavis and butthead posts trolling me from a basement or a foreign enemy expressing their deepest hatred for me, it is better than fascism and censorship. At least it is what they really want to say. Trying to fix trolling on a political board where trolling is the native language is ridiculous.

I've been on here for about 5 years now and to this day I try to have civil discussions here. I actively look for it. I rarely rise to people who try to bait me and I tend to not engage with those that are obviously here to do nothing else. In my personal experience, it hasn't led me to "hate" those I disagree with. It has frustrated me on plenty of occasions but hate is something I have a hard time feeling for people I will most likely never personally meet.

As to your OP. Trolling indeed has been a time-honoured tradition in political discourse. Agent-provocateurs have been around before the US was even conceived. Having said that the advent of the internet has changed the objective of trolling. It used to be used as a way to provoke a response from your political opponent in order to show them to be unreasonable or as a justification for advancing your own policies. It seems to me that modern-day trolling has evolved as an objective by itself.

If the only thing you are trying to achieve is frustrating your political opponent without a clear policy goal in mind, I fail to see a point to it. Besides feeling the satisfaction of being the kid that breaks other peoples toys.