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unfortunately for you, the legalities do in fact matter. also unfortunately for your POV is that you do not have all the specific facts and no matter how often you repeat your opinion, it does not make your opinion fact.
i guess you also don't believe that in america, people are presumed innocent until found guilty...
apparently the law is meaningless to you and you would rather have mob justice just because you feel you can ignore the law and form your own opinion....
Legalities matter in a debate board? Whose the judge?
What are you talking about presumed innocent and mob justice? Are you talking about Cheney and the inquisition boys? I didn't say anything about prosecuting them.
I am stating why IMO water boarding is torture.
unfortunately for you, the legalities do in fact matter. also unfortunately for your POV is that you do not have all the specific facts and no matter how often you repeat your opinion, it does not make your opinion fact.
i guess you also don't believe that in america, people are presumed innocent until found guilty...
apparently the law is meaningless to you and you would rather have mob justice just because you feel you can ignore the law and form your own opinion....
Legalities matter in a debate board? Whose the judge?
What are you talking about presumed innocent and mob justice? Are you talking about Cheney and the inquisition boys? I didn't say anything about prosecuting them.
I am stating why IMO water boarding is torture.
ok, thanks for clarifying that...i thought we were discussing legalities as you kept bringing up the military tribunals as proof of their guilt...silly me for showing you wrong as to the tribunals
all you had to say was
i don't care about the law or facts, i am only talking my opinion and nothing else and i wouldn't have said anything further to you.
Legalities matter in a debate board? Whose the judge?
What are you talking about presumed innocent and mob justice? Are you talking about Cheney and the inquisition boys? I didn't say anything about prosecuting them.
I am stating why IMO water boarding is torture.
ok, thanks for clarifying that...i thought we were discussing legalities as you kept bringing up the military tribunals as proof of their guilt...silly me for showing you wrong as to the tribunals
all you had to say was
i don't care about the law or facts, i am only talking my opinion and nothing else and i wouldn't have said anything further to you.
That wouldn't have been accurate. I do care about the facts. The fact is that the US Govt prosecuted waterboarding for the war crime of torture.
i guess you also don't believe that in america, people are presumed innocent until found guilty...
Never been accused of a crime you did not commit, have you? If you had, you would not make such a statement.
Immie
actually i have....
and i have worked with people who have
whats your point? are you saying the doctrine is wrong?
ok, thanks for clarifying that...i thought we were discussing legalities as you kept bringing up the military tribunals as proof of their guilt...silly me for showing you wrong as to the tribunals
all you had to say was
i don't care about the law or facts, i am only talking my opinion and nothing else and i wouldn't have said anything further to you.
That wouldn't have been accurate. I do care about the facts. The fact is that the US Govt prosecuted waterboarding for the war crime of torture.
yeah, and when i tell you that that fact is irrelevent and not binding in this situation, you then claim you don't care, all you care about is your opinion
you can't have it both ways
Never been accused of a crime you did not commit, have you? If you had, you would not make such a statement.
Immie
actually i have....
and i have worked with people who have
whats your point? are you saying the doctrine is wrong?
The doctrine is how we should be treating the accused, but that is not how the accused are treated. Although, maybe I should broaden that with the following statement. That is not how we treat people who are accused of certain crimes. Depending upon the crime and the "investigating Authority" some accused are treated as if they are guilty and they must prove their innocence rather than the other way around.
It all depends on how Politically Incorrect the "crime" is.
Immie
actually i have....
and i have worked with people who have
whats your point? are you saying the doctrine is wrong?
The doctrine is how we should be treating the accused, but that is not how the accused are treated. Although, maybe I should broaden that with the following statement. That is not how we treat people who are accused of certain crimes. Depending upon the crime and the "investigating Authority" some accused are treated as if they are guilty and they must prove their innocence rather than the other way around.
It all depends on how Politically Incorrect the "crime" is.
Immie
you're right about that, but that is not going to stop me from saying that in america, you are presumed innocent until found guilty. whether people always abide by that belief is irrelevent to the truth of that axiom. it is said in virtually every single criminal case in the very beginning and the end.
thats like the people who say, america doesn't torture...and telling them, you wouldn't say that because americans have tortured
The previous administration abandoned years of moral standings concerning torture. I believe that was one reason McCain lost. He was against and then he was for waterboarding. McCain prostituted his beliefs to pacify the GOP elite.
If it worked for them, it will work for US. It's all about being too cowardly to keep our values.
Every schoolchild knows that Gen. George Washington made extraordinary efforts to protect America's civilian population from the ravages of war. Fewer Americans know that Revolutionary War leaders, including Washington and the Continental Congress, considered the decent treatment of enemy combatants to be one of the principal strategic preoccupations of the American Revolution.
"In 1776," wrote historian David Hackett Fischer in "Washington's Crossing," "American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements … was to manage the war in a manner that was true to the expanding humanitarian ideals of the American Revolution."
The fact that the patriots refused to abandon these principles, even in the dark times when the war seemed lost, when the enemy controlled our cities and our ragged army was barefoot and starving, credits the character of Washington and the founding fathers and puts to shame the conduct of America's present leadership.
Fischer writes that leaders in both the Continental Congress and the Continental Army resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with a respect for human rights. This was all the more extraordinary because these courtesies were not reciprocated by King George's armies. Indeed, the British conducted a deliberate campaign of atrocities against American soldiers and civilians. While Americans extended quarter to combatants as a matter of right and treated their prisoners with humanity, British regulars and German mercenaries were threatened by their own officers with severe punishment if they showed mercy to a surrendering American soldier. Captured Americans were tortured, starved and cruelly maltreated aboard prison ships.
Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren…. Provide everything necessary for them on the road."
John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. His thoughts on the subject, expressed in a 1777 letter to his wife, might make a profitable read for Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld as we endeavor to win hearts and minds in Iraq. Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this — Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."
Even British military leaders involved in the atrocities recognized their negative effects on the overall war effort. In 1778, Col. Charles Stuart wrote to his father, the Earl of Bute: "Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate."
In the end, our founding fathers not only protected our national values, they defeated a militarily superior enemy. Indeed, it was their disciplined adherence to those values that helped them win a hopeless struggle against the best soldiers in Europe.
For those who favor torture, you are................................
America's Anti-Torture Tradition
Edited to comply with copyright policy. ~ A-15
my point has always been, not everything you guys consider torture is in fact torture
unfortunately for you, the legalities do in fact matter. also unfortunately for your POV is that you do not have all the specific facts and no matter how often you repeat your opinion, it does not make your opinion fact.
i guess you also don't believe that in america, people are presumed innocent until found guilty...
apparently the law is meaningless to you and you would rather have mob justice just because you feel you can ignore the law and form your own opinion....
Georgie didn't torture people?
I think you should ask the Mohawk nation about that before you get off that soapbox.
I know they are just injuns to you, but they do count as people.
Sullivan's 1779 campaign
Learn a little history before you spout off on what saints we were.
If it worked for them, it will work for US. It's all about being too cowardly to keep our values.
Every schoolchild knows that Gen. George Washington made extraordinary efforts to protect America's civilian population from the ravages of war. Fewer Americans know that Revolutionary War leaders, including Washington and the Continental Congress, considered the decent treatment of enemy combatants to be one of the principal strategic preoccupations of the American Revolution.
"In 1776," wrote historian David Hackett Fischer in "Washington's Crossing," "American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements was to manage the war in a manner that was true to the expanding humanitarian ideals of the American Revolution."
The fact that the patriots refused to abandon these principles, even in the dark times when the war seemed lost, when the enemy controlled our cities and our ragged army was barefoot and starving, credits the character of Washington and the founding fathers and puts to shame the conduct of America's present leadership.
Fischer writes that leaders in both the Continental Congress and the Continental Army resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with a respect for human rights. This was all the more extraordinary because these courtesies were not reciprocated by King George's armies. Indeed, the British conducted a deliberate campaign of atrocities against American soldiers and civilians. While Americans extended quarter to combatants as a matter of right and treated their prisoners with humanity, British regulars and German mercenaries were threatened by their own officers with severe punishment if they showed mercy to a surrendering American soldier. Captured Americans were tortured, starved and cruelly maltreated aboard prison ships.
Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren . Provide everything necessary for them on the road."
John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. His thoughts on the subject, expressed in a 1777 letter to his wife, might make a profitable read for Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld as we endeavor to win hearts and minds in Iraq. Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."
Even British military leaders involved in the atrocities recognized their negative effects on the overall war effort. In 1778, Col. Charles Stuart wrote to his father, the Earl of Bute: "Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate."
In the end, our founding fathers not only protected our national values, they defeated a militarily superior enemy. Indeed, it was their disciplined adherence to those values that helped them win a hopeless struggle against the best soldiers in Europe.
For those who favor torture, you are................................
America's Anti-Torture Tradition
Edited to comply with copyright policy. ~ A-15
I find two things interesting.
1. That anyone still believes that torture is still a viable option in gaining accurate information.
2. That anyone believes anything Cheney says.
If it worked for them, it will work for US. It's all about being too cowardly to keep our values.
Every schoolchild knows that Gen. George Washington made extraordinary efforts to protect America's civilian population from the ravages of war. Fewer Americans know that Revolutionary War leaders, including Washington and the Continental Congress, considered the decent treatment of enemy combatants to be one of the principal strategic preoccupations of the American Revolution.
"In 1776," wrote historian David Hackett Fischer in "Washington's Crossing," "American leaders believed it was not enough to win the war. They also had to win in a way that was consistent with the values of their society and the principles of their cause. One of their greatest achievements was to manage the war in a manner that was true to the expanding humanitarian ideals of the American Revolution."
The fact that the patriots refused to abandon these principles, even in the dark times when the war seemed lost, when the enemy controlled our cities and our ragged army was barefoot and starving, credits the character of Washington and the founding fathers and puts to shame the conduct of America's present leadership.
Fischer writes that leaders in both the Continental Congress and the Continental Army resolved that the War of Independence would be conducted with a respect for human rights. This was all the more extraordinary because these courtesies were not reciprocated by King George's armies. Indeed, the British conducted a deliberate campaign of atrocities against American soldiers and civilians. While Americans extended quarter to combatants as a matter of right and treated their prisoners with humanity, British regulars and German mercenaries were threatened by their own officers with severe punishment if they showed mercy to a surrendering American soldier. Captured Americans were tortured, starved and cruelly maltreated aboard prison ships.
Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren . Provide everything necessary for them on the road."
John Adams argued that humane treatment of prisoners and deep concern for civilian populations not only reflected the American Revolution's highest ideals, they were a moral and strategic requirement. His thoughts on the subject, expressed in a 1777 letter to his wife, might make a profitable read for Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld as we endeavor to win hearts and minds in Iraq. Adams wrote: "I know of no policy, God is my witness, but this Piety, Humanity and Honesty are the best Policy. Blasphemy, Cruelty and Villainy have prevailed and may again. But they won't prevail against America, in this Contest, because I find the more of them are employed, the less they succeed."
Even British military leaders involved in the atrocities recognized their negative effects on the overall war effort. In 1778, Col. Charles Stuart wrote to his father, the Earl of Bute: "Wherever our armies have marched, wherever they have encamped, every species of barbarity has been executed. We planted an irrevocable hatred wherever we went, which neither time nor measure will be able to eradicate."
In the end, our founding fathers not only protected our national values, they defeated a militarily superior enemy. Indeed, it was their disciplined adherence to those values that helped them win a hopeless struggle against the best soldiers in Europe.
For those who favor torture, you are................................
America's Anti-Torture Tradition
Edited to comply with copyright policy. ~ A-15
*yawn*
Define torture. Oh yeah ... your threads.
