Today's mob mentality politics: Just deny it, and keep moving

[Mac1958]

This article hits the nail right on the head..sadly, as the article states..no one cares:

Today's mob mentality politics: Just deny it, and keep moving

We have no reason to expect an honest and thorough conversation about the kind of cultural degeneracy that may have led a white 17-year-old to cross state lines to patrol and fire shots at those protesting the shooting of a Black man in front of his children. We have no reason to expect an introspective conversation about the messaging that led hundreds to riot and loot in Minneapolis based on false information.
Notwithstanding Democratic nominee Joe Biden's speech last week, we should only expect deflection, denials and insults from conservative and progressive hardliners. Few will question their own tactics because publicly critiquing your tribe is considered treasonous. In this truth-deficient dialogue, facts and principles are inconveniences - unless they can be weaponized. Only the narrative seems to matter. Our pride and prejudices compel us to take sides and defend them, come hell or high water.
If one thing is clear about the American public discourse today, it's that we're totally ill-equipped or unwilling to engage in honest debate.

It's not right to ignore political violence.

Likewise, it's not right to ignore the precise details of the cases you cite. Characterizing Rittenhouse as a 17 year old that traveled across state lines to shoot at protesters ignores significant pieces of the story and asserts motive without evidence, perhaps even in spite of it. Can't have honest debate by characterizing events dishonestly, even if your motives are all Kumbaya.

Because you disagree with the characterization does not mean that it is false..just sayin'. Rittenhouse is a tragedy--no matter the final outcome. I can't help but notice that you have no comment at all about the protestors..or any of the circumstances. It cannot be denied that if Kyle had stayed home...told the fool that asked for his help, "no thanks"--that things would have turned out better...but the haters have gotten a hold of the narrative..and away we go.

Significant pieces of the story seems to depend on which narrative you buy into

Well, this is part of the problem.

The most destructive feature of this intense tribalism is that we are now literally working under different realities. There is "news" and "facts" and "information" that fully supports both tribes, and it purposely avoids and distorts all contrary news, facts and information.

We can't fix our problems if we can't communicate. We can't communicate if we exist in different realities.

You're illustrating the problem. I tell you that what you've highlighted amounts to omission and unproven assertion, and you imply that I'm living in a different reality.

Yeah, maybe. My reality requires that evidence not be left out of the conversation before fact is determined. Call me crazy.

I'm not implying it, I'm saying it. There are now two identifiable "news" and "information" realities.

However, I did not single you out, nor was I thinking about you personally when I wrote it. I'm not very familiar with you.

Fair enough if you aren't referring to my response above.

The point stands, however, that accepting one of those two "realities" as the truth and then couching that assertion within a frame of trying to encourage people to listen to the other side is laughably self oblivious at best.

I'm not sure what that means, but thanks.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

This article hits the nail right on the head..sadly, as the article states..no one cares:

Today's mob mentality politics: Just deny it, and keep moving

We have no reason to expect an honest and thorough conversation about the kind of cultural degeneracy that may have led a white 17-year-old to cross state lines to patrol and fire shots at those protesting the shooting of a Black man in front of his children. We have no reason to expect an introspective conversation about the messaging that led hundreds to riot and loot in Minneapolis based on false information.
Notwithstanding Democratic nominee Joe Biden's speech last week, we should only expect deflection, denials and insults from conservative and progressive hardliners. Few will question their own tactics because publicly critiquing your tribe is considered treasonous. In this truth-deficient dialogue, facts and principles are inconveniences - unless they can be weaponized. Only the narrative seems to matter. Our pride and prejudices compel us to take sides and defend them, come hell or high water.
If one thing is clear about the American public discourse today, it's that we're totally ill-equipped or unwilling to engage in honest debate.

It's not right to ignore political violence.

Likewise, it's not right to ignore the precise details of the cases you cite. Characterizing Rittenhouse as a 17 year old that traveled across state lines to shoot at protesters ignores significant pieces of the story and asserts motive without evidence, perhaps even in spite of it. Can't have honest debate by characterizing events dishonestly, even if your motives are all Kumbaya.

Because you disagree with the characterization does not mean that it is false..just sayin'. Rittenhouse is a tragedy--no matter the final outcome. I can't help but notice that you have no comment at all about the protestors..or any of the circumstances. It cannot be denied that if Kyle had stayed home...told the fool that asked for his help, "no thanks"--that things would have turned out better...but the haters have gotten a hold of the narrative..and away we go.

Significant pieces of the story seems to depend on which narrative you buy into

Well, this is part of the problem.

The most destructive feature of this intense tribalism is that we are now literally working under different realities. There is "news" and "facts" and "information" that fully supports both tribes, and it purposely avoids and distorts all contrary news, facts and information.

We can't fix our problems if we can't communicate. We can't communicate if we exist in different realities.

You're illustrating the problem. I tell you that what you've highlighted amounts to omission and unproven assertion, and you imply that I'm living in a different reality.

Yeah, maybe. My reality requires that evidence not be left out of the conversation before fact is determined. Call me crazy.

I'm not implying it, I'm saying it. There are now two identifiable "news" and "information" realities.

However, I did not single you out, nor was I thinking about you personally when I wrote it. I'm not very familiar with you.

Fair enough if you aren't referring to my response above.

The point stands, however, that accepting one of those two "realities" as the truth and then couching that assertion within a frame of trying to encourage people to listen to the other side is laughably self oblivious at best.

I'm not sure what that means, but thanks.

It means that making the assertion that Rittenhouse went there to kill protesters while giving lip service to the idea that people need to push out of their tribal narratives is hilariously ironic.

 

[Mac1958]

This article hits the nail right on the head..sadly, as the article states..no one cares:

Today's mob mentality politics: Just deny it, and keep moving

We have no reason to expect an honest and thorough conversation about the kind of cultural degeneracy that may have led a white 17-year-old to cross state lines to patrol and fire shots at those protesting the shooting of a Black man in front of his children. We have no reason to expect an introspective conversation about the messaging that led hundreds to riot and loot in Minneapolis based on false information.
Notwithstanding Democratic nominee Joe Biden's speech last week, we should only expect deflection, denials and insults from conservative and progressive hardliners. Few will question their own tactics because publicly critiquing your tribe is considered treasonous. In this truth-deficient dialogue, facts and principles are inconveniences - unless they can be weaponized. Only the narrative seems to matter. Our pride and prejudices compel us to take sides and defend them, come hell or high water.
If one thing is clear about the American public discourse today, it's that we're totally ill-equipped or unwilling to engage in honest debate.

It's not right to ignore political violence.

Likewise, it's not right to ignore the precise details of the cases you cite. Characterizing Rittenhouse as a 17 year old that traveled across state lines to shoot at protesters ignores significant pieces of the story and asserts motive without evidence, perhaps even in spite of it. Can't have honest debate by characterizing events dishonestly, even if your motives are all Kumbaya.

Because you disagree with the characterization does not mean that it is false..just sayin'. Rittenhouse is a tragedy--no matter the final outcome. I can't help but notice that you have no comment at all about the protestors..or any of the circumstances. It cannot be denied that if Kyle had stayed home...told the fool that asked for his help, "no thanks"--that things would have turned out better...but the haters have gotten a hold of the narrative..and away we go.

Significant pieces of the story seems to depend on which narrative you buy into

Well, this is part of the problem.

The most destructive feature of this intense tribalism is that we are now literally working under different realities. There is "news" and "facts" and "information" that fully supports both tribes, and it purposely avoids and distorts all contrary news, facts and information.

We can't fix our problems if we can't communicate. We can't communicate if we exist in different realities.

You're illustrating the problem. I tell you that what you've highlighted amounts to omission and unproven assertion, and you imply that I'm living in a different reality.

Yeah, maybe. My reality requires that evidence not be left out of the conversation before fact is determined. Call me crazy.

I'm not implying it, I'm saying it. There are now two identifiable "news" and "information" realities.

However, I did not single you out, nor was I thinking about you personally when I wrote it. I'm not very familiar with you.

Fair enough if you aren't referring to my response above.

The point stands, however, that accepting one of those two "realities" as the truth and then couching that assertion within a frame of trying to encourage people to listen to the other side is laughably self oblivious at best.

I'm not sure what that means, but thanks.

It means that making the assertion that Rittenhouse went there to kill protesters while giving lip service to the idea that people need to push out of their tribal narratives is hilariously ironic.

Yes, I would agree with that. I can only agree on principle, because I have never posted about the kid.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

We have no reason to expect an introspective conversation about the messaging that led hundreds to riot and loot in Minneapolis based on false information.

What false information?

The suicide that was reported as a police shooting....do keep up...lol!

 

[Olde Europe]

We have no reason to expect an introspective conversation about the messaging that led hundreds to riot and loot in Minneapolis based on false information.

What false information?

The suicide that was reported as a police shooting....do keep up...lol!

I don't think your ridicule does the incident justice. Also, I haven't found any "report", just rumors spreading through Minneapolis. Here's what I have found to be a good - uh, introspective conversation about it, just what we've been sternly informed we won't see. But the Both-Sides bullshit requires both sides be found defective or otherwise lacking, no matter what.

 

[candycorn]

We have no reason to expect an introspective conversation about the messaging that led hundreds to riot and loot in Minneapolis based on false information.

What false information?

The suicide that was reported as a police shooting....do keep up...lol!

In Minneapolis?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This article hits the nail right on the head..sadly, as the article states..no one cares:

Today's mob mentality politics: Just deny it, and keep moving

We have no reason to expect an honest and thorough conversation about the kind of cultural degeneracy that may have led a white 17-year-old to cross state lines to patrol and fire shots at those protesting the shooting of a Black man in front of his children. We have no reason to expect an introspective conversation about the messaging that led hundreds to riot and loot in Minneapolis based on false information.
Notwithstanding Democratic nominee Joe Biden's speech last week, we should only expect deflection, denials and insults from conservative and progressive hardliners. Few will question their own tactics because publicly critiquing your tribe is considered treasonous. In this truth-deficient dialogue, facts and principles are inconveniences - unless they can be weaponized. Only the narrative seems to matter. Our pride and prejudices compel us to take sides and defend them, come hell or high water.
If one thing is clear about the American public discourse today, it's that we're totally ill-equipped or unwilling to engage in honest debate.

So what’s the resolution?

Needless to say, each side will just blame the other as to why we're totally ill-equipped or unwilling to engage in honest debate.

It’s insufficient to simply complain about a lack of honest debate without addressing the root cause or causes and without offering solutions – indeed, these ‘both sides are the same’ threads only contribute to, and perpetuate, the discord an intransigence.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

We have no reason to expect an introspective conversation about the messaging that led hundreds to riot and loot in Minneapolis based on false information.

What false information?

The suicide that was reported as a police shooting....do keep up...lol!

I don't think your ridicule does the incident justice. Also, I haven't found any "report", just rumors spreading through Minneapolis. Here's what I have found to be a good - uh, introspective conversation about it, just what we've been sternly informed we won't see. But the Both-Sides bullshit requires both sides be found defective or otherwise lacking, no matter what.

Reported as in...spread like wildfire over social media and inspiring a flash riot.

Police release video of suicide that sparked Minneapolis looting, riots

Minneapolis police released surveillance video of a murder suspect committing suicide Wednesday — to dispel widespread rumors that cops killed the man. The false reports of a police-involved …

nypost.com

The false reports of a police-involved shooting sparked a violent night of looting and vandalism across the city.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

This article hits the nail right on the head..sadly, as the article states..no one cares:

Today's mob mentality politics: Just deny it, and keep moving

We have no reason to expect an honest and thorough conversation about the kind of cultural degeneracy that may have led a white 17-year-old to cross state lines to patrol and fire shots at those protesting the shooting of a Black man in front of his children. We have no reason to expect an introspective conversation about the messaging that led hundreds to riot and loot in Minneapolis based on false information.
Notwithstanding Democratic nominee Joe Biden's speech last week, we should only expect deflection, denials and insults from conservative and progressive hardliners. Few will question their own tactics because publicly critiquing your tribe is considered treasonous. In this truth-deficient dialogue, facts and principles are inconveniences - unless they can be weaponized. Only the narrative seems to matter. Our pride and prejudices compel us to take sides and defend them, come hell or high water.
If one thing is clear about the American public discourse today, it's that we're totally ill-equipped or unwilling to engage in honest debate.

So what’s the resolution?

Needless to say, each side will just blame the other as to why we're totally ill-equipped or unwilling to engage in honest debate.

It’s insufficient to simply complain about a lack of honest debate without addressing the root cause or causes and without offering solutions – indeed, these ‘both sides are the same’ threads only contribute to, and perpetuate, the discord an intransigence.

Well..you might be asking a bit of this forum for that--I offer you a solution...Honest debate depends on a willingness to be persuaded..for it to work effectively as a tool for cogent change. I believe that honest debate cannot happen out on the edges..only moderate pragmatists are interested..and that brand is not selling in DC...LOL

Out on the fringes...their realities are different..if there is one thing this site has taught me..it is that.

 

[Olde Europe]

From the OP article:

The ideological left has trouble acknowledging that many of their ideas don't even have the support of the people for whom they claim to speak. For example, most Black people just aren't as "progressive" or liberal as the left would have you believe. We desperately want criminal justice reform but disagree with the left's conclusions about the importance of police and prosecutors, based on practical considerations. Furthermore, the left loathes to admit that the chaos in places such as Portland is unjustified, incredibly counterproductive and has little to do with the dignity of Black life.​

Has anyone ever said, Black people are just a uniform block? Ideologically aligned with the progressives? All of them? Is there a single person of any stature so demented as to say that? I mean, never ever heard about Herman Cain? Is Cory Booker a "progressive", for that matter? Does "the left" actually claim they speak for Blacks? I can't remember having heard that, either.

Then, let's look at that article (first link above), allegedly proving Blacks aren't all that progressive. The article, based on a study bringing together money and political persuasion, finds that Blacks quite often keep a buck rather than to donate it to a party (surprise!), less so while being observed by other Blacks. Now, that earth shattering finding has the authors declare:

Social pressure is what cements that relationship between the black electorate and the Democratic party.​

So, about nine of ten Blacks, in the privacy of the voting booth, are voting (D). Because social pressure. If you think that's true... naw, no one does. Moreover, the article doesn't prove what the OP's article claims, that blacks aren't that progressive, and that liberals fail to acknowledge that.

The latter part deals with policing. The underlying article deals with Black attitudes toward policing, and whether they want police to spend more or less time in their neighborhoods. The money quote in that Gallup article (second link above) reads:

Most Black Americans want the police to spend at least as much time in their area as they currently do, indicating that they value the need for the service that police provide. However, that exposure comes with more trepidation for Black than White or Hispanic Americans about what they might experience in a police encounter. And those harboring the least confidence that they will be treated well, or who have had negative encounters in the past, are much more likely to want the police presence curtailed.

These results correspond with Gallup's previously reported findings showing that only 22% of Black Americans favor abolishing police departments. However, the vast majority believe reform is needed, with upward of 90% favoring specific reforms aimed at improving police relations with the communities they serve and preventing or punishing abusive police behavior.​

That sounds about reasonable. It is also the prevailing stance among Democrats, with a tiny minority opting to "defund the police", whatever that means in detail. In no way, shape or form is there a consensus on the left in favor of abolishing police departments up and down the country, and replacing them with nothing. Just why a family dispute needs to be resolved with gun-toting, trigger-happy, frightened-to-death police is an open, unanswered question. Finally, I have seen no politician of national stature who denied, as the OP author claims, "that the chaos in places such as Portland is unjustified, incredibly counterproductive and has little to do with the dignity of Black life." To be precise, looting and arson have nothing whatsoever to do with the dignity of Black life.

So, that's crap, from the first word to the last. Utter, disingenuous, fact-free crap.

This one had me chuckling: "celebrating sexual promiscuity on the left become [a ] noble sign[] of defiance." Not just "promiscuity", but "sexual promiscuity", and celebrated by "the left." Gawd, how much I hoped to find enough honesty in any party for them to come forward with their true stance on sexuality - the one they'd willingly live by. Goes without saying, there was none to be found. They all would have to "celebrate" promiscuity if they themselves benefit, and decry it in case others do. Honestly.

The author, with all due respect, is an idiot. But I am supposed humbly to listen. That is, humbly listen to folks who deny the reality of man-made climate change, and the danger it poses to humankind, and who would gloat about any and all efforts to thwart every last counter-measure. Listen - humbly - to folks who celebrate Trump as the second coming, rather than to decry that vulgar Orange dunce as the danger to the Republic he is. I am supposed to listen, humbly, to folks who would, in deplorable subservience to their Dear Leader, depict wearing masks, this very timely and necessary expression of our care for each other, as an abomination, and who would declare 180,000 dead Americans - estimated to be 400,000 by the end of the year - "acceptable". Why, why on earth would anyone not completely benighted do such a thing?

Let me put this as clearly as I possibly can: I would not jump up and down and expect anyone to listen to what I have to say on the Theory of Relativity - as I have nothing of any worth or interest to say about that matter. There are also folks who have nothing of any worth or interest to say about politics. They are just too ignorant, too demented, too eaten up by resentments or hate, or too ideologically boneheaded to be worth listening to. Because their racism, their supremacist needs, their misogyny, or whatever else ails them, trump the very reality, science, or facts they cannot and do not respect. End of. Pointless. It's actually the worst kind of Both-Sides bullshitters who would deny that, while they demonstrably listen very selectively in order to be able to make up and dish out self-serving lies about the side they wish to decry - with not a shred of a justification for it.

 

[Olde Europe]

Reported as in...spread like wildfire over social media and inspiring a flash riot.

Police release video of suicide that sparked Minneapolis looting, riots

Minneapolis police released surveillance video of a murder suspect committing suicide Wednesday — to dispel widespread rumors that cops killed the man. The false reports of a police-involved …

nypost.com

The false reports of a police-involved shooting sparked a violent night of looting and vandalism across the city.

"The suicide that was reported as a police shooting".

It was not in any reasonable sense "reported", Eye. I have looked for quite a while, and that crappy article by the crappy NYPost also couldn't link to any false "report". "Reported" shall not be confused with "rumored", and the implied involvement of the media should not be confused with the bowel movements of the so-called "social media", don't you agree? Words matter.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

Reported as in...spread like wildfire over social media and inspiring a flash riot.

Police release video of suicide that sparked Minneapolis looting, riots

Minneapolis police released surveillance video of a murder suspect committing suicide Wednesday — to dispel widespread rumors that cops killed the man. The false reports of a police-involved …

nypost.com

The false reports of a police-involved shooting sparked a violent night of looting and vandalism across the city.

"The suicide that was reported as a police shooting".

It was not in any reasonable sense "reported", Eye. I have looked for quite a while, and that crappy article by the crappy NYPost also couldn't link to any false "report". "Reported" shall not be confused with "rumored", and the implied involvement of the media should not be confused with the bowel movements of the so-called "social media", don't you agree? Words matter.

That..actually...would be MY point. That you ignore the facts...a suicide...false cries of police shooting...riots as a result--mystifies me. A simple DuckDuckGo search got me a line of articles from papers video from news stations..and some cogent followup....try these search terms...minneopolis riot over suicide

Can it be..that you are crying "fake news'? How ironic?

 

[Olde Europe]

That..actually...would be MY point. That you ignore the facts...a suicide...false cries of police shooting...riots as a result--mystifies me. A simple DuckDuckGo search got me a line of articles from papers video from news stations..and some cogent followup....try these search terms...minneopolis riot over suicide

Can it be..that you are crying "fake news'? How ironic?

I am shaking my head here, Eye. You seemed to allege "fake news" "reported" on a police shooting, and a riot ensued over what was a suicide. I looked for quite some time but couldn't find any media "report" claiming there was a police shooting. Are we talking past each other, when all there is is your - in my view - misleading use of the term "reported"?

The facts are: A murder suspect committed suicide. Rumors spread about a police shooting that wasn't. A riot ensued.

Rumor spreading, and many either were ignorant, of refused to believe the claims about "suicide" - quite understandably given the long history of lies by the police - and they went on a rampage anyway.

Cleared that up?

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

That..actually...would be MY point. That you ignore the facts...a suicide...false cries of police shooting...riots as a result--mystifies me. A simple DuckDuckGo search got me a line of articles from papers video from news stations..and some cogent followup....try these search terms...minneopolis riot over suicide

Can it be..that you are crying "fake news'? How ironic?

I am shaking my head here, Eye. You seemed to allege "fake news" "reported" on a police shooting, and a riot ensued over what was a suicide. I looked for quite some time but couldn't find any media "report" claiming there was a police shooting. Are we talking past each other, when all there is is your - in my view - misleading use of the term "reported"?

The facts are: A murder suspect committed suicide. Rumors spread about a police shooting that wasn't. A riot ensued.

Rumor spreading, and many either were ignorant, of refused to believe the claims about "suicide" - quite understandably given the long history of lies by the police - and they went on a rampage anyway.

Cleared that up?

Yup..that pesky word 'report' I used it differently than your context...my bad.

Ya know..the police also have a long history of saving lives--poor black ones included. I don't think it is quite understandably at all. BTW..this has happened at least one other time..in Chicago--Twitter riots..is this the coming thing?

I've been in riots...participated...when a young man..felt the madness and the power...the freedom of being young and breaking shit. There is no politic in that...no justification either..and the cause is just an excuse to rampage. Martin would sigh....

 

[Olde Europe]

Yup..that pesky word 'report' I used it differently than your context...my bad.

Ya know..the police also have a long history of saving lives--poor black ones included. I don't think it is quite understandably at all. BTW..this has happened at least one other time..in Chicago--Twitter riots..is this the coming thing?

I've been in riots...participated...when a young man..felt the madness and the power...the freedom of being young and breaking shit. There is no politic in that...no justification either..and the cause is just an excuse to rampage. Martin would sigh....

At... 120, you should still remember the last half century or so of lynch mobs. So, mobs organizing based on rumors, acting on their prevailing resentments or need for supremacist self-aggrandizing (or whatever), are nothing new. It's probably a safe bet that rumor-mongering on twitter (etc.) might lead to a heightened prevalence of same - particularly in times of high unemployment, and many young males with very little by way of a future and very much by way of time out on the streets.

Yep, rage about whatever slight, vaguely felt injustice or indignity, acted upon while breaking all the usual rules and burdensome constraints, can be quite the experience.