Time to put pressure on the GOP. . .

[IM2]

He's a successful businessman. Is he perfect?? No but then no one is.

He is not a successful businessman. And you will learn the hard way that he has failed this country.

Ah, the poor minions, still arguing that a man who has made billions of dollars in the real estate, entertainment and other industries isn't "successful," meantime flashback to reality and the poll in this thread, could this be a blueprint for things to come? The OP suggests that the GOP should chuck DJT, meantime------ reality:

View attachment 259903

Trump wins again with an 80% overall popularity rating of either liking the president or at least supporting what he brings to the table vs. 20% who don't.

And THAT is NOT looking good for the Democrats.

In the world outside of USMB, Trump trails all the top democrats in the polls. There is no Hillary Clinton this time and Trump has a record that is not good.

Your polls are all a lie again, Trump's record is great and you don't have anyone even as good as Hillary. At least she was a slick savvy politician when she wasn't coughing, choking and could stand, walk and talk.

Trump tells you his record and you believe it without question. That's because he enables your racism. But his record is lousy. He's bragging about an economy he did not create and one that he actually is destroying.

 

[candycorn]

Looking at it from a purely objective standpoint, awhile back I came to the conclusion that Trump's biggest obstacle is not the Democrats.

In my opinion, I have come to expect the Democrats to be angry, vindictive, irresponsible, hypocritical, intellectually dishonest, malicious, hateful, obstructive no matter who they hurt or how bad for the country because frankly that's pretty much all they have offered lately. They certainly don't offer any kind of agenda that won't make things far worse for most Americans and hurt the country much more than it offers any kind of defensible positive solutions.

But it is timid, feckless, and mostly self-serving members of the permanent political class in the Republican Party that are most dangerous to making America great again. The Paul Ryans, the Mitch McConnells, the Mitt Romneys, and their ilk added to a few pure RINOs and an RNC that too often insults our intelligence instead of getting behind the President and helping him accomplish his agenda that are the President's worst hindrance. The status quo has enriched and empowered them greatly, and they seem determined not to upset it. And it is necessary to upset it in order to accomplish the President's agenda.

Those of us who really embrace the concept of MAGA, don't really care that the President is occasionally petulant, sometimes tweets a positively cringeworthy comment, and sometimes has an unlikable side. Or we do care but it isn't a deal breaker for us. We understand and believe in his vision and agenda and appreciate the bulldog terrier in him and his willingness to put up with unprecedented hateful and dishonest opposition as he looks for ways to get it done.

And it occurred to me that those of us who support that vision and agenda may have to start really putting the pressure on McConnell, et al, to get behind it.

When I ran across this essay today, it really spoke to how I have been thinking and feeling:

Richard Viguerie and Craig Shirley: Trump’s next battle: McConnell and the GOP Swamp

With the Mueller report in his rearview mirror . . .

Trump can now turn his full attention to his policy agenda and the 2020 elections. His most consequential hindrance in Washington in this regard won’t be Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, nor Democrat House committee chairs Adam Schiff, D-Calif., and Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y. Compared to the sophisticated Deep State attempt to take down the Trump presidency, Democrats in Congress will appear to Trump and his revved-up supporters as little more than a clown car show.

The next serious challenge Trump faces will be Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and the GOP swamp that he leads . . .​

Unless those of us who want lasting peace, prosperity, law and order, individual liberty and incentive etc. have the back of the President and those who share his vision, I genuinely fear for the future of our country.

I only hope there are enough of us to re-elect President Trump by a landslide in 2020.

Do you agree that if we want the President to succeed we have to have his back? The back of those who support him and/or his agenda? Do you agree that we need to push all Republicans and what honorable Democrats remain to get behind that agenda? And we should work to elect those who do even if it means replacing Republicans who are more hindrance than help to the President's agenda?

The poll is public and multiple choice and allows for changes in choices checked.

By all means vote out McConnell. LOL
You’re one of the most dishonest people on this board. Your “expecting” democrats to be dishonest is frankly hilarious.

I’m admittedly perplexed by one thing. You think there is a choice to be made between someone who can deliver some of what you want and someone who can deliver some of what you want while being a decent person. I would ask how you sank so low but my feeling is that you were there all along.

 

[Foxfyre]

What if the "anti-Trumpers" believe that what they do is in the best interests of the country? You seem to be saying that only agreeing with Trump could be in the best interests of the country.

If a member of Congress is opposing this or that Trump policy cuz he or she believes the policy is wrong or not in the best interests of the country or because he or she believes his or her constituents want him or her to oppose it, then fine. But these days I am not sure how many in either party support or oppose any policy or position based on those reasons, or is it something else? Like how does this affect my chances for re-election? Or, how much money am I going to get or lose for my campaign fund? Or worse, how much will I or a family member or friend/supporter gain or lose?

When I see pols who were for something and now they are against it, it's kinda hard to convince me that they are doing what is best for the country. And both sides are guilty of this I think. Sides and positions are switched depending in part on who's in the majority and who's in the WH. I may be wrong, but I do believe that most polls these days indicate that most Americans do not trust their gov't and do not believe they are working in our best interests instead of theirs.

What you are describing is a permanent political class that are in it for their own personal benefit and not for those who put them there.

Why I think they hate President Trump so much apart from the fact that he beat their nominee who was supposed to be a shoo in?

1. President Trump is not a politician.

2. President Trump is non partisan.

3. President Trump is not an ideologue.

4. President Trump thumbs his nose at political correctness.

5. President Trump gives no respect to a status quo that has not been producing the results it is supposed to.

6. President Trump sets his objective and goal and then goes from Plan A to B or C or however many different plans it takes to achieve the desired outcome. He doesn't easily take no for an answer, he isn't afraid to try no matter how many say it can't be done, and he isn't afraid to fail along the way until the right solution or fix is found, and if it is important to him, he doesn't quit. (He will sometimes withdraw, regroup, and recalculate before trying again.)

7. President Trump is determined to do the job he set out to do and whether he does it out of ego or an honest desire to help America and Americans, it doesn't matter. He intends to get it done and he has kept campaign promises more faithfully and in actuality than ANY President in my now very long lifetime.

If he is sometimes petulant, petty, cringeworthy, unlikable at times, well that's a small price to pay to get somebody who actually wants to do the job. So I want to keep him.

He is the exact opposite of the professional political class and is a danger to their existance. And that is why they and their supporters in both parties hate him.

1. At this point Trump certainly is a politician. Before being elected, he acted a lot like politicians do; the bad qualities, at least.

2. I honestly don't know where you get this idea that Trump is so non-partisan. He's made comment after comment about how bad Democrats and 'the left' are, hasn't he?

3. Trump doesn't seem to be an ideologue, unless you were to describe promoting the Trump brand as his ideology.

4. True, but thumbing one's nose at political correctness doesn't have to mean being crass and rude.

5. Has the status quo really changed all that much?

6. Unfortunately, at least based on the things he says, Trump seems like the type who not only won't admit to ever failing, but who would keep promoting a failing policy in order to avoid such an admission. He also comes across as a person who would only go from Plan A to B or C if they were his plans, or he could take credit for them. That's just an impression, though.

7. How do you know what Trump, or any president, is determined to do? I have no idea how Trump compares to other presidents as far as keeping campaign promises. If he's kept more than other presidents, that's admirable.

I think most presidents want the job.

I don't think Trump is the opposite of the professional political class. I think he is more like a somewhat tarnished reflection of them. I think getting someone who is the opposite would be next to impossible because no one one would want to do the job is likely to try to get it. Worse, no one one would want to do the job is likely to get elected, even if they were to run. Presidential elections seem like more of a beauty contest than a political election to me.

You can't find any trait or action of President Trump that would make him part of the permanent political class.

Trump praises and compliments and thanks ANY Democrat who isn't trying to destroy him and his agenda. There are precious few of them, and he well understands that the Republican Party holds the only hope he has for getting legislation done that will help America, however tepid that hope is with status quo Republicans heading the party. So far all the Democrats are offering are short term benefits that cannot be sustained and socialist/even fascist initiatives that will hurt us some in the short term and pretty much all in the long term.

What they are offering could damage America to the point it would resemble Venezuela, not that long ago one of the top economies in the world but due to socialist/fascist policies now reduced to a warring, miserable, dangerous place with poverty, even starvation, too much the norm.

And that list of Trump era accomplishments up there. It ALL is much more than the status quo was. And every President has to live with his own administration's record. The Trump Administration is putting out a very VERY commendable record.

How does anybody justify taking the risk to reverse that just because they hate the President?

Not being part of the permanent political class isn't the same as being the opposite.

Democrat and Republican politicians all spend a large amount of time claiming the other 'side' is going to destroy the country, or is in the process of destroying the country. You yourself seem to have just said that Democrats are only doing things which will hurt the country. I find that idea funny, in a sad sort of way. Democrats and Republicans can and do both have ideas that would work for the country, just as both parties come up with ideas that would not. With a Republican controlled Congress and Presidency, the country has one of the highest deficits in history. With a Democrat controlled Congress and Presidency under Obama, the country had the highest deficit in history. Regardless of the party in power we've had wars and conflicts in various countries around the world. Regardless of the party in power we've had decades of the failed war on drugs. We've had the creation, continuation, and even expansion of the intrusive Patriot Act. Both parties seem to have some of the same bad ideas about how to run the government.

Venezuela was a top economy because of their massive oil reserves, I believe. I don't know if they ever had the sort of economy the US does.

Not everyone agrees with your assessment of the state of the country or of the reasons for why things are the way they are. So not everyone will see it as a risk to reverse some of the things that have occurred during the Trump administration.

I'm curious about which Democrats Trump has praised and complimented.

I get it. You really dislike the President and that probably makes you resist giving him credit for the good things that are happening. I can accept that and appreciate your civility in expressing it. We are unlikely to agree on this one though.

 

[Foxfyre]

I mainly support the president in his involuntary policy of NOT being Hillary Clinton.

We dodged a huge bullet. All else is gravy.

To impeach him for allegedly obstructing an investigation into something that is not a crime seems a bit coup-ish.

.

You can't find something in his agenda or accomplishments to date to appreciate, get behind, support?

I cant as of this point. Every time he seens as if he will offer something I could support (which is rare) he reverses or lies. Most of his agenda is too far to the right and my feelings on the Reoubs and Trump pretty much ech yours on the Dems. Most of the presidents positions are the antithesis of mine and destroying our country.

You oppose more money in the pockets of working Americans?

You oppose efforts to stop the crisis on the border?

You oppose great numbers in increases in construction and manufacturing jobs that are the backbone of a healthy and lasting good economy?

You oppose millions of people having good paying full time jobs with benefits again instead of making do on fewer hours than they need or working multiple part time jobs?

You oppose trade deals that give American a fair deal?

You oppose record or near record unemployment numbers in virtually EVERY category, men, women, minorities, high school grads, high school drop outs that anybody in the world would envy and that are pulling people out of poverty, off food stamps, increasing individual and family income and wealth with lower income people seeing the greatest advances?

You oppose strengthening our military which is the world's best chance for lasting peace?

I'm sorry but the only ones I see as intent on destroying the country are those who would do away with all that out of their hatred for President Trump.

Great Strawman from a Trump Sycophant. So disliking Trump's policies is all about hating Trump? I wonder if you would apply that to Obama? Likely not.

Do you support record low levels of support and respect for America nationwide?

Do you support a near total and thoughtless dismantling of environmental protections (for the sole reason that they are Obama's) regardless of impact?

Do you support decreasing safety regulations in the fossil fuel industry despite the fact it is a very dangerous occupation and disasters have far ranging economic and environmental impacts?

Do you support tearing children away from migrant families and sending the parent back without their children - NOT because they are being trafficked but to send a message?

Do you support ignoring and downplaying the effect of foreign influences in our election?

Do you support a president who name calls foreign leaders and political rivals like a Jr Highschool adolescent, and then demands they respect him?

Do you like being the laughing stock of the world as China forges ahead with it's economic global policies and South China Sea installations?

How's the NK "deal" going?

Where is the new Health Insurance deal we are supposed to have while you have been systematically dismantling healthcare?

Where is the new deal with Iran since we pulled out of a negotiated deal?

What's the plan for the effects of global warming given that it's happening and the skeptics are an ever diminishing circle jerk of flat earthers? More coal?

Oh, and let's save the best for the last. Trump conflates religious liberty with freedom to be a bigot. Freedom to discriminate. These means in small rural towns where services are far more restricted, gays, lesbians, transexuals and women will have far fewer options for health care. Hell, a gay man can be denied a life saving pharmacy prescription because of his a pharmacist's so called religious feelings (needless to say - those feelings done't seem to involve OTHER religious abominations). Thank you Trump for codifying the right to bigotry and discrimination in a way that I seriously doubt Jesus ever intended.


View attachment 259883

You're going to personal insults now? Not cool my friend.

We simply aren't going to agree on this. And yes, those who buy into the erroneous and sometimes malicious talking points--one example, Trump is dismantling all environmental regulations which is totally false--I do believe do so out of hatred for the man. Such folks simply are not willing to entertain any thought that most of the anti-Trump propaganda is just that, propaganda with little or no bearing on the truth.

To ignore all the wonderfully good things that are happening and focusing only on that propaganda simply is not good debate.

Yes, there are numerous things in the President's style that have raised my eyebrows many times. I often much dislike when he comes across as petulant, sometimes petty, and can be unlikable at times. But on more than one occasion I have questioned and criticized the wisdom of some of that and have had to admit he was more right than I was. And in some others he will likely be found to be wrong. He is after all human.

To expect him to fix really difficult problems on the first try, or second try, or third try or in his first two years in office comes from pure partisan hatred and not out of any sense of reality. At least he is working for real fixes, real solutions instead of the make believe pretend fixes that some of his predecessors claimed or reactions just to claim that we reacted but that accomplished nothing.

I will put up with his unlikable side, and his unorthodox and sometimes combatant management style in return for all those terrific results. I think everybody else should allow him the chance to try too. His predecessor sure as heck didn't get it done. Nor did George W. Bush. Nor did Bill Clinton.

 

[Foxfyre]

Looking at it from a purely objective standpoint, awhile back I came to the conclusion that Trump's biggest obstacle is not the Democrats.

In my opinion, I have come to expect the Democrats to be angry, vindictive, irresponsible, hypocritical, intellectually dishonest, malicious, hateful, obstructive no matter who they hurt or how bad for the country because frankly that's pretty much all they have offered lately. They certainly don't offer any kind of agenda that won't make things far worse for most Americans and hurt the country much more than it offers any kind of defensible positive solutions.

But it is timid, feckless, and mostly self-serving members of the permanent political class in the Republican Party that are most dangerous to making America great again. The Paul Ryans, the Mitch McConnells, the Mitt Romneys, and their ilk added to a few pure RINOs and an RNC that too often insults our intelligence instead of getting behind the President and helping him accomplish his agenda that are the President's worst hindrance. The status quo has enriched and empowered them greatly, and they seem determined not to upset it. And it is necessary to upset it in order to accomplish the President's agenda.

Those of us who really embrace the concept of MAGA, don't really care that the President is occasionally petulant, sometimes tweets a positively cringeworthy comment, and sometimes has an unlikable side. Or we do care but it isn't a deal breaker for us. We understand and believe in his vision and agenda and appreciate the bulldog terrier in him and his willingness to put up with unprecedented hateful and dishonest opposition as he looks for ways to get it done.

And it occurred to me that those of us who support that vision and agenda may have to start really putting the pressure on McConnell, et al, to get behind it.

When I ran across this essay today, it really spoke to how I have been thinking and feeling:

Richard Viguerie and Craig Shirley: Trump’s next battle: McConnell and the GOP Swamp

With the Mueller report in his rearview mirror . . .

Trump can now turn his full attention to his policy agenda and the 2020 elections. His most consequential hindrance in Washington in this regard won’t be Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, nor Democrat House committee chairs Adam Schiff, D-Calif., and Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y. Compared to the sophisticated Deep State attempt to take down the Trump presidency, Democrats in Congress will appear to Trump and his revved-up supporters as little more than a clown car show.

The next serious challenge Trump faces will be Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and the GOP swamp that he leads . . .​

Unless those of us who want lasting peace, prosperity, law and order, individual liberty and incentive etc. have the back of the President and those who share his vision, I genuinely fear for the future of our country.

I only hope there are enough of us to re-elect President Trump by a landslide in 2020.

Do you agree that if we want the President to succeed we have to have his back? The back of those who support him and/or his agenda? Do you agree that we need to push all Republicans and what honorable Democrats remain to get behind that agenda? And we should work to elect those who do even if it means replacing Republicans who are more hindrance than help to the President's agenda?

The poll is public and multiple choice and allows for changes in choices checked.

Donald Trump is not a conservative while Ronald Reagan was. The fact is that Trump's support lies in right wing hate groups, white supremacists and neo-nazis. The rest go along because power is more important to them than principle.

The fact is that intelligent people do not support Trump. You people are the morons. The fact is that Trump has shattered the Reagan coalition. Reagan won among men and women. Among rural voters and suburban voters. Among people with high school educations and 4 year degrees. He also won among young voters. Trump has lost suburban voters, women, educated people and young voters. In 2018, Republicans lost Blacks, Hispanics and Asians.

Ronald Reagan stood for mainstream conservatism and he was a canny judge of character even when he ignored it. Ronald Reagan's first instinct was Jack Kemp or Paul Laxalt for VP. He had no respect for Bush's political skills and ultimately was proven right in Bush's lousy campaign in 1992. Trump's political instincts show how clueless and stupid he is. Ronald Reagan did not disparage people from the White House because he had too much respect for it.

Ronald Reagan got things done and he didn't need to use reconciliation to ram things through. He did not use policy for political retaliation against states that did not support him. He navigated moderate Republicans to pass his initial tax cuts and later worked with Democrats to get tax reform passed. He got rid of tax loopholes for the rich unlike the tax reform Republicans passed.

Having the back of Donald Trump means supporting far right wing animals. It means putting up with bigoted rhetoric towards Muslims, Hispanics and women. That is a bridge too far. Trump has likely lost Michigan and Pennsylvania which means they have to thread a needle. A poll in Arizona shows Biden with a 5 point lead which suggests Arizona likely will be very close. Texas polls have suggested a race between Trump and Biden would be similar to the O'Rourke-Cruz race.

Ronald Reagan was more hated by the radical left than Nixon ever was. And they worked almost as hard to destroy him as they are working to destroy President Trump. The only difference is that there were still enough honorable Democrats unwilling to participate in malicious hypocrisy to buffer that a bit, and most of the media was still doing respectable journalism.

As far as your other comments, I'll just add those to the roster of the group afflicted with DTS and unable to think for themselves beyond parroting the assigned talking points.

And let me save you some time. The DTS crowd pretty much describes all Trump or Trump agenda supporters as:

RACIST
Prejudiced
Bigoted
Deplorable
Hateful
Nazi
Fascist
Violent
White Supremacist
Sexist
Xenophobic
Fear brown people
Islamophobic
Homophobic
Christian sharia
Basement dwellers
Birthers
Misogynistic
Teabaggers
Greedy
Uncaring
Insensitive
Hate the poor
Want to keep the poor in poverty
Violate every person's bedroom and every woman's womb
Smelly Walmart people
Low information
Uneducated
Unscientific
Environmentally irresponsible
Clinging to their guns and religion
and white women vote according to how their husbands, bosses, sons tell them to vote.
Brainwashed

Let me know if I left anything out. I give credit for creativity because there seems to be precious little of it.

I agree with most of those descriptions. I do believe that Ronald Reagan would have supported Dreamers. He would have helped people in mortal fear of their lives. Ronald Reagan talked about people from various countries being able to come to the US, work and go back home.

I'm sure you do. In my opinion people who think that way are most of the problem, the very worst in hateful partisanship and fully embracing TDS. When the focus is on demonizing those with whom you disagree, nothing can come out of it other than devisiveness and bad, even destructive policy. God willing, the most hateful of the left will not prevail.

 

[toobfreak]

Trump tells you his record and you believe it without question.

How many times did Obama tell you his "record?" Please tell us how many times you disbelieved it and how you confirmed or refuted it?

That's because he enables your racism.

Please tell us how his record has anything to do with racism? Or do you just see it everywhere you look?

But his record is lousy. He's bragging about an economy he did not create and one that he actually is destroying.

Please document how an economy that has shot off ever since he took office is doing lousy , he did not create and is actually destroying?
Then tell us the economy that Obama created that most called the longest recession in recent history since the Great Depression?

 

[Foxfyre]

Trump tells you his record and you believe it without question.

How many times did Obama tell you his "record?" Please tell us how many times you disbelieved it and how you confirmed or refuted it?

That's because he enables your racism.

Please tell us how his record has anything to do with racism? Or do you just see it everywhere you look?

But his record is lousy. He's bragging about an economy he did not create and one that he actually is destroying.

Please document how an economy that has shot off ever since he took office is doing lousy , he did not create and is actually destroying?
Then tell us the economy that Obama created that most called the longest recession in recent history since the Great Depression?

Good points but you would be shot down on one point in a formal debate, i.e. that Obama created the recession. He didn't.

The worst he did to create it was to be one of the Democrats in the majority in Congress who kept insisting there was no problem despite being warned 17 times by President Bush in 2007 and 2008 that the situation was critical. Chris Dodd, Barney Frank et al went before the cameras again and again to say there was no problem. And Pelosi and Reid, majority leaders, refused to consider any legislation to deal with it. Admittedly the Republicans didn't act either when they were in the majority and before it had reached crisis levels.

Obama can take credit however for presiding over the slowest recovery to a recession since the Great Depression and an entirely lackluster economy as a result of that.

 

[toobfreak]

Trump tells you his record and you believe it without question.

How many times did Obama tell you his "record?" Please tell us how many times you disbelieved it and how you confirmed or refuted it?

That's because he enables your racism.

Please tell us how his record has anything to do with racism? Or do you just see it everywhere you look?

But his record is lousy. He's bragging about an economy he did not create and one that he actually is destroying.

Please document how an economy that has shot off ever since he took office is doing lousy , he did not create and is actually destroying?
Then tell us the economy that Obama created that most called the longest recession in recent history since the Great Depression?

Good points but you would be shot down on one point in a formal debate, i.e. that Obama created the recession. He didn't.

The worst he did to create it was to be one of the Democrats in the majority in Congress who kept insisting there was no problem despite being warned 17 times by President Bush that we were in trouble. Chris Dodd, Barney Frank et al went before the cameras again and again to say there was no problem. And Pelosi and Reid, majority leaders, refused to consider any legislation to deal with it.

Obama can take credit however for presiding over the slowest recovery to a recession since the Great Depression and an entirely lackluster economy as a result of that.

So you agree. The democrats CREATED the recession through their hapless banking and SNL kibosh which Obama was a part of, then Obama as president presided over the slowest recovery even as he funneled hundreds of billions of dollars to his cronies which has all disappeared.

 

[Coyote]

I mainly support the president in his involuntary policy of NOT being Hillary Clinton.

We dodged a huge bullet. All else is gravy.

To impeach him for allegedly obstructing an investigation into something that is not a crime seems a bit coup-ish.

.

You can't find something in his agenda or accomplishments to date to appreciate, get behind, support?

I cant as of this point. Every time he seens as if he will offer something I could support (which is rare) he reverses or lies. Most of his agenda is too far to the right and my feelings on the Reoubs and Trump pretty much ech yours on the Dems. Most of the presidents positions are the antithesis of mine and destroying our country.

You oppose more money in the pockets of working Americans?

You oppose efforts to stop the crisis on the border?

You oppose great numbers in increases in construction and manufacturing jobs that are the backbone of a healthy and lasting good economy?

You oppose millions of people having good paying full time jobs with benefits again instead of making do on fewer hours than they need or working multiple part time jobs?

You oppose trade deals that give American a fair deal?

You oppose record or near record unemployment numbers in virtually EVERY category, men, women, minorities, high school grads, high school drop outs that anybody in the world would envy and that are pulling people out of poverty, off food stamps, increasing individual and family income and wealth with lower income people seeing the greatest advances?

You oppose strengthening our military which is the world's best chance for lasting peace?

I'm sorry but the only ones I see as intent on destroying the country are those who would do away with all that out of their hatred for President Trump.

Great Strawman from a Trump Sycophant. So disliking Trump's policies is all about hating Trump? I wonder if you would apply that to Obama? Likely not.

Do you support record low levels of support and respect for America nationwide?

Do you support a near total and thoughtless dismantling of environmental protections (for the sole reason that they are Obama's) regardless of impact?

Do you support decreasing safety regulations in the fossil fuel industry despite the fact it is a very dangerous occupation and disasters have far ranging economic and environmental impacts?

Do you support tearing children away from migrant families and sending the parent back without their children - NOT because they are being trafficked but to send a message?

Do you support ignoring and downplaying the effect of foreign influences in our election?

Do you support a president who name calls foreign leaders and political rivals like a Jr Highschool adolescent, and then demands they respect him?

Do you like being the laughing stock of the world as China forges ahead with it's economic global policies and South China Sea installations?

How's the NK "deal" going?

Where is the new Health Insurance deal we are supposed to have while you have been systematically dismantling healthcare?

Where is the new deal with Iran since we pulled out of a negotiated deal?

What's the plan for the effects of global warming given that it's happening and the skeptics are an ever diminishing circle jerk of flat earthers? More coal?

Oh, and let's save the best for the last. Trump conflates religious liberty with freedom to be a bigot. Freedom to discriminate. These means in small rural towns where services are far more restricted, gays, lesbians, transexuals and women will have far fewer options for health care. Hell, a gay man can be denied a life saving pharmacy prescription because of his a pharmacist's so called religious feelings (needless to say - those feelings done't seem to involve OTHER religious abominations). Thank you Trump for codifying the right to bigotry and discrimination in a way that I seriously doubt Jesus ever intended.


View attachment 259883

You're going to personal insults now? Not cool my friend.

We simply aren't going to agree on this. And yes, those who buy into the erroneous and sometimes malicious talking points--one example, Trump is dismantling all environmental regulations which is totally false--I do believe do so out of hatred for the man. Such folks simply are not willing to entertain any thought that most of the anti-Trump propaganda is just that, propaganda with little or no bearing on the truth.

To ignore all the wonderfully good things that are happening and focusing only on that propaganda simply is not good debate.

Yes, there are numerous things in the President's style that have raised my eyebrows many times. I often much dislike when he comes across as petulant, sometimes petty, and can be unlikable at times. But on more than one occasion I have questioned and criticized the wisdom of some of that and have had to admit he was more right than I was. And in some others he will likely be found to be wrong. He is after all human.

To expect him to fix really difficult problems on the first try, or second try, or third try or in his first two years in office comes from pure partisan hatred and not out of any sense of reality. At least he is working for real fixes, real solutions instead of the make believe pretend fixes that some of his predecessors claimed or reactions just to claim that we reacted but that accomplished nothing.

I will put up with his unlikable side, and his unorthodox and sometimes combatant management style in return for all those terrific results. I think everybody else should allow him the chance to try too. His predecessor sure as heck didn't get it done. Nor did George W. Bush. Nor did Bill Clinton.

I think calling legitimate criticism of Trump policies "propoganda" or the by product of Trump-hate is not good debate either. Neother is is sugar coating real problems

I apologize for the insults but your tesponse came across as rather insulting.

 

[Foxfyre]

You can't find something in his agenda or accomplishments to date to appreciate, get behind, support?

I cant as of this point. Every time he seens as if he will offer something I could support (which is rare) he reverses or lies. Most of his agenda is too far to the right and my feelings on the Reoubs and Trump pretty much ech yours on the Dems. Most of the presidents positions are the antithesis of mine and destroying our country.

You oppose more money in the pockets of working Americans?

You oppose efforts to stop the crisis on the border?

You oppose great numbers in increases in construction and manufacturing jobs that are the backbone of a healthy and lasting good economy?

You oppose millions of people having good paying full time jobs with benefits again instead of making do on fewer hours than they need or working multiple part time jobs?

You oppose trade deals that give American a fair deal?

You oppose record or near record unemployment numbers in virtually EVERY category, men, women, minorities, high school grads, high school drop outs that anybody in the world would envy and that are pulling people out of poverty, off food stamps, increasing individual and family income and wealth with lower income people seeing the greatest advances?

You oppose strengthening our military which is the world's best chance for lasting peace?

I'm sorry but the only ones I see as intent on destroying the country are those who would do away with all that out of their hatred for President Trump.

Great Strawman from a Trump Sycophant. So disliking Trump's policies is all about hating Trump? I wonder if you would apply that to Obama? Likely not.

Do you support record low levels of support and respect for America nationwide?

Do you support a near total and thoughtless dismantling of environmental protections (for the sole reason that they are Obama's) regardless of impact?

Do you support decreasing safety regulations in the fossil fuel industry despite the fact it is a very dangerous occupation and disasters have far ranging economic and environmental impacts?

Do you support tearing children away from migrant families and sending the parent back without their children - NOT because they are being trafficked but to send a message?

Do you support ignoring and downplaying the effect of foreign influences in our election?

Do you support a president who name calls foreign leaders and political rivals like a Jr Highschool adolescent, and then demands they respect him?

Do you like being the laughing stock of the world as China forges ahead with it's economic global policies and South China Sea installations?

How's the NK "deal" going?

Where is the new Health Insurance deal we are supposed to have while you have been systematically dismantling healthcare?

Where is the new deal with Iran since we pulled out of a negotiated deal?

What's the plan for the effects of global warming given that it's happening and the skeptics are an ever diminishing circle jerk of flat earthers? More coal?

Oh, and let's save the best for the last. Trump conflates religious liberty with freedom to be a bigot. Freedom to discriminate. These means in small rural towns where services are far more restricted, gays, lesbians, transexuals and women will have far fewer options for health care. Hell, a gay man can be denied a life saving pharmacy prescription because of his a pharmacist's so called religious feelings (needless to say - those feelings done't seem to involve OTHER religious abominations). Thank you Trump for codifying the right to bigotry and discrimination in a way that I seriously doubt Jesus ever intended.


View attachment 259883

You're going to personal insults now? Not cool my friend.

We simply aren't going to agree on this. And yes, those who buy into the erroneous and sometimes malicious talking points--one example, Trump is dismantling all environmental regulations which is totally false--I do believe do so out of hatred for the man. Such folks simply are not willing to entertain any thought that most of the anti-Trump propaganda is just that, propaganda with little or no bearing on the truth.

To ignore all the wonderfully good things that are happening and focusing only on that propaganda simply is not good debate.

Yes, there are numerous things in the President's style that have raised my eyebrows many times. I often much dislike when he comes across as petulant, sometimes petty, and can be unlikable at times. But on more than one occasion I have questioned and criticized the wisdom of some of that and have had to admit he was more right than I was. And in some others he will likely be found to be wrong. He is after all human.

To expect him to fix really difficult problems on the first try, or second try, or third try or in his first two years in office comes from pure partisan hatred and not out of any sense of reality. At least he is working for real fixes, real solutions instead of the make believe pretend fixes that some of his predecessors claimed or reactions just to claim that we reacted but that accomplished nothing.

I will put up with his unlikable side, and his unorthodox and sometimes combatant management style in return for all those terrific results. I think everybody else should allow him the chance to try too. His predecessor sure as heck didn't get it done. Nor did George W. Bush. Nor did Bill Clinton.

I think calling legitimate criticism of Trump policies "propoganda" or the by product of Trump-hate is not good debate either. Neother is is sugar coating real problems

I apologize for the insults but your tesponse came across as rather insulting.

No legitimate criticism is not propaganda and I will give anybody props who can argue legitimate criticism using evidence and intellectually honest logic whether or not I agree with him/her. But reciting talking points without being able to show any evidence or make a logical, intellectually honest argument for how they are accurate is propaganda.

I will admit that I too often characterize things in ways that are more insulting than useful. It is one of my worst failings. I wish I could say I won't do that any more but I know I probably will. Sometimes it is hard not to push back against the irrational and hateful and sometimes maliciously ignorant or dishonest characterizations that others use.

However my comment re your rather mild personal insult was only mentioned because it is so out of character for you.

 

[Coyote]

I cant as of this point. Every time he seens as if he will offer something I could support (which is rare) he reverses or lies. Most of his agenda is too far to the right and my feelings on the Reoubs and Trump pretty much ech yours on the Dems. Most of the presidents positions are the antithesis of mine and destroying our country.

You oppose more money in the pockets of working Americans?

You oppose efforts to stop the crisis on the border?

You oppose great numbers in increases in construction and manufacturing jobs that are the backbone of a healthy and lasting good economy?

You oppose millions of people having good paying full time jobs with benefits again instead of making do on fewer hours than they need or working multiple part time jobs?

You oppose trade deals that give American a fair deal?

You oppose record or near record unemployment numbers in virtually EVERY category, men, women, minorities, high school grads, high school drop outs that anybody in the world would envy and that are pulling people out of poverty, off food stamps, increasing individual and family income and wealth with lower income people seeing the greatest advances?

You oppose strengthening our military which is the world's best chance for lasting peace?

I'm sorry but the only ones I see as intent on destroying the country are those who would do away with all that out of their hatred for President Trump.

Great Strawman from a Trump Sycophant. So disliking Trump's policies is all about hating Trump? I wonder if you would apply that to Obama? Likely not.

Do you support record low levels of support and respect for America nationwide?

Do you support a near total and thoughtless dismantling of environmental protections (for the sole reason that they are Obama's) regardless of impact?

Do you support decreasing safety regulations in the fossil fuel industry despite the fact it is a very dangerous occupation and disasters have far ranging economic and environmental impacts?

Do you support tearing children away from migrant families and sending the parent back without their children - NOT because they are being trafficked but to send a message?

Do you support ignoring and downplaying the effect of foreign influences in our election?

Do you support a president who name calls foreign leaders and political rivals like a Jr Highschool adolescent, and then demands they respect him?

Do you like being the laughing stock of the world as China forges ahead with it's economic global policies and South China Sea installations?

How's the NK "deal" going?

Where is the new Health Insurance deal we are supposed to have while you have been systematically dismantling healthcare?

Where is the new deal with Iran since we pulled out of a negotiated deal?

What's the plan for the effects of global warming given that it's happening and the skeptics are an ever diminishing circle jerk of flat earthers? More coal?

Oh, and let's save the best for the last. Trump conflates religious liberty with freedom to be a bigot. Freedom to discriminate. These means in small rural towns where services are far more restricted, gays, lesbians, transexuals and women will have far fewer options for health care. Hell, a gay man can be denied a life saving pharmacy prescription because of his a pharmacist's so called religious feelings (needless to say - those feelings done't seem to involve OTHER religious abominations). Thank you Trump for codifying the right to bigotry and discrimination in a way that I seriously doubt Jesus ever intended.


View attachment 259883

You're going to personal insults now? Not cool my friend.

We simply aren't going to agree on this. And yes, those who buy into the erroneous and sometimes malicious talking points--one example, Trump is dismantling all environmental regulations which is totally false--I do believe do so out of hatred for the man. Such folks simply are not willing to entertain any thought that most of the anti-Trump propaganda is just that, propaganda with little or no bearing on the truth.

To ignore all the wonderfully good things that are happening and focusing only on that propaganda simply is not good debate.

Yes, there are numerous things in the President's style that have raised my eyebrows many times. I often much dislike when he comes across as petulant, sometimes petty, and can be unlikable at times. But on more than one occasion I have questioned and criticized the wisdom of some of that and have had to admit he was more right than I was. And in some others he will likely be found to be wrong. He is after all human.

To expect him to fix really difficult problems on the first try, or second try, or third try or in his first two years in office comes from pure partisan hatred and not out of any sense of reality. At least he is working for real fixes, real solutions instead of the make believe pretend fixes that some of his predecessors claimed or reactions just to claim that we reacted but that accomplished nothing.

I will put up with his unlikable side, and his unorthodox and sometimes combatant management style in return for all those terrific results. I think everybody else should allow him the chance to try too. His predecessor sure as heck didn't get it done. Nor did George W. Bush. Nor did Bill Clinton.

I think calling legitimate criticism of Trump policies "propoganda" or the by product of Trump-hate is not good debate either. Neother is is sugar coating real problems

I apologize for the insults but your tesponse came across as rather insulting.

No legitimate criticism is not propaganda. But reciting talking points without being able to show any evidence or make a logical, intellectually honest argument for how they are accurate is propaganda.

What you call "talking points " is legitimate criticism.

 

[Coyote]

Trump tells you his record and you believe it without question.

How many times did Obama tell you his "record?" Please tell us how many times you disbelieved it and how you confirmed or refuted it?

That's because he enables your racism.

Please tell us how his record has anything to do with racism? Or do you just see it everywhere you look?

But his record is lousy. He's bragging about an economy he did not create and one that he actually is destroying.

Please document how an economy that has shot off ever since he took office is doing lousy , he did not create and is actually destroying?
Then tell us the economy that Obama created that most called the longest recession in recent history since the Great Depression?

Good points but you would be shot down on one point in a formal debate, i.e. that Obama created the recession. He didn't.

The worst he did to create it was to be one of the Democrats in the majority in Congress who kept insisting there was no problem despite being warned 17 times by President Bush in 2007 and 2008 that the situation was critical. Chris Dodd, Barney Frank et al went before the cameras again and again to say there was no problem. And Pelosi and Reid, majority leaders, refused to consider any legislation to deal with it. Admittedly the Republicans didn't act either when they were in the majority and before it had reached crisis levels.

Obama can take credit however for presiding over the slowest recovery to a recession since the Great Depression and an entirely lackluster economy as a result of that.

You seem to forget this recession was by far the worst since the Great Depression. Recovery takes time but it was steady and trending upward..

 

[Foxfyre]

You oppose more money in the pockets of working Americans?

You oppose efforts to stop the crisis on the border?

You oppose great numbers in increases in construction and manufacturing jobs that are the backbone of a healthy and lasting good economy?

You oppose millions of people having good paying full time jobs with benefits again instead of making do on fewer hours than they need or working multiple part time jobs?

You oppose trade deals that give American a fair deal?

You oppose record or near record unemployment numbers in virtually EVERY category, men, women, minorities, high school grads, high school drop outs that anybody in the world would envy and that are pulling people out of poverty, off food stamps, increasing individual and family income and wealth with lower income people seeing the greatest advances?

You oppose strengthening our military which is the world's best chance for lasting peace?

I'm sorry but the only ones I see as intent on destroying the country are those who would do away with all that out of their hatred for President Trump.

Great Strawman from a Trump Sycophant. So disliking Trump's policies is all about hating Trump? I wonder if you would apply that to Obama? Likely not.

Do you support record low levels of support and respect for America nationwide?

Do you support a near total and thoughtless dismantling of environmental protections (for the sole reason that they are Obama's) regardless of impact?

Do you support decreasing safety regulations in the fossil fuel industry despite the fact it is a very dangerous occupation and disasters have far ranging economic and environmental impacts?

Do you support tearing children away from migrant families and sending the parent back without their children - NOT because they are being trafficked but to send a message?

Do you support ignoring and downplaying the effect of foreign influences in our election?

Do you support a president who name calls foreign leaders and political rivals like a Jr Highschool adolescent, and then demands they respect him?

Do you like being the laughing stock of the world as China forges ahead with it's economic global policies and South China Sea installations?

How's the NK "deal" going?

Where is the new Health Insurance deal we are supposed to have while you have been systematically dismantling healthcare?

Where is the new deal with Iran since we pulled out of a negotiated deal?

What's the plan for the effects of global warming given that it's happening and the skeptics are an ever diminishing circle jerk of flat earthers? More coal?

Oh, and let's save the best for the last. Trump conflates religious liberty with freedom to be a bigot. Freedom to discriminate. These means in small rural towns where services are far more restricted, gays, lesbians, transexuals and women will have far fewer options for health care. Hell, a gay man can be denied a life saving pharmacy prescription because of his a pharmacist's so called religious feelings (needless to say - those feelings done't seem to involve OTHER religious abominations). Thank you Trump for codifying the right to bigotry and discrimination in a way that I seriously doubt Jesus ever intended.


View attachment 259883

You're going to personal insults now? Not cool my friend.

We simply aren't going to agree on this. And yes, those who buy into the erroneous and sometimes malicious talking points--one example, Trump is dismantling all environmental regulations which is totally false--I do believe do so out of hatred for the man. Such folks simply are not willing to entertain any thought that most of the anti-Trump propaganda is just that, propaganda with little or no bearing on the truth.

To ignore all the wonderfully good things that are happening and focusing only on that propaganda simply is not good debate.

Yes, there are numerous things in the President's style that have raised my eyebrows many times. I often much dislike when he comes across as petulant, sometimes petty, and can be unlikable at times. But on more than one occasion I have questioned and criticized the wisdom of some of that and have had to admit he was more right than I was. And in some others he will likely be found to be wrong. He is after all human.

To expect him to fix really difficult problems on the first try, or second try, or third try or in his first two years in office comes from pure partisan hatred and not out of any sense of reality. At least he is working for real fixes, real solutions instead of the make believe pretend fixes that some of his predecessors claimed or reactions just to claim that we reacted but that accomplished nothing.

I will put up with his unlikable side, and his unorthodox and sometimes combatant management style in return for all those terrific results. I think everybody else should allow him the chance to try too. His predecessor sure as heck didn't get it done. Nor did George W. Bush. Nor did Bill Clinton.

I think calling legitimate criticism of Trump policies "propoganda" or the by product of Trump-hate is not good debate either. Neother is is sugar coating real problems

I apologize for the insults but your tesponse came across as rather insulting.

No legitimate criticism is not propaganda. But reciting talking points without being able to show any evidence or make a logical, intellectually honest argument for how they are accurate is propaganda.

What you call "talking points " is legitimate criticism.

Not when it can't be backed up with any evidence or intellectually honest logic.

 

[Montrovant]

If a member of Congress is opposing this or that Trump policy cuz he or she believes the policy is wrong or not in the best interests of the country or because he or she believes his or her constituents want him or her to oppose it, then fine. But these days I am not sure how many in either party support or oppose any policy or position based on those reasons, or is it something else? Like how does this affect my chances for re-election? Or, how much money am I going to get or lose for my campaign fund? Or worse, how much will I or a family member or friend/supporter gain or lose?

When I see pols who were for something and now they are against it, it's kinda hard to convince me that they are doing what is best for the country. And both sides are guilty of this I think. Sides and positions are switched depending in part on who's in the majority and who's in the WH. I may be wrong, but I do believe that most polls these days indicate that most Americans do not trust their gov't and do not believe they are working in our best interests instead of theirs.

What you are describing is a permanent political class that are in it for their own personal benefit and not for those who put them there.

Why I think they hate President Trump so much apart from the fact that he beat their nominee who was supposed to be a shoo in?

1. President Trump is not a politician.

2. President Trump is non partisan.

3. President Trump is not an ideologue.

4. President Trump thumbs his nose at political correctness.

5. President Trump gives no respect to a status quo that has not been producing the results it is supposed to.

6. President Trump sets his objective and goal and then goes from Plan A to B or C or however many different plans it takes to achieve the desired outcome. He doesn't easily take no for an answer, he isn't afraid to try no matter how many say it can't be done, and he isn't afraid to fail along the way until the right solution or fix is found, and if it is important to him, he doesn't quit. (He will sometimes withdraw, regroup, and recalculate before trying again.)

7. President Trump is determined to do the job he set out to do and whether he does it out of ego or an honest desire to help America and Americans, it doesn't matter. He intends to get it done and he has kept campaign promises more faithfully and in actuality than ANY President in my now very long lifetime.

If he is sometimes petulant, petty, cringeworthy, unlikable at times, well that's a small price to pay to get somebody who actually wants to do the job. So I want to keep him.

He is the exact opposite of the professional political class and is a danger to their existance. And that is why they and their supporters in both parties hate him.

1. At this point Trump certainly is a politician. Before being elected, he acted a lot like politicians do; the bad qualities, at least.

2. I honestly don't know where you get this idea that Trump is so non-partisan. He's made comment after comment about how bad Democrats and 'the left' are, hasn't he?

3. Trump doesn't seem to be an ideologue, unless you were to describe promoting the Trump brand as his ideology.

4. True, but thumbing one's nose at political correctness doesn't have to mean being crass and rude.

5. Has the status quo really changed all that much?

6. Unfortunately, at least based on the things he says, Trump seems like the type who not only won't admit to ever failing, but who would keep promoting a failing policy in order to avoid such an admission. He also comes across as a person who would only go from Plan A to B or C if they were his plans, or he could take credit for them. That's just an impression, though.

7. How do you know what Trump, or any president, is determined to do? I have no idea how Trump compares to other presidents as far as keeping campaign promises. If he's kept more than other presidents, that's admirable.

I think most presidents want the job.

I don't think Trump is the opposite of the professional political class. I think he is more like a somewhat tarnished reflection of them. I think getting someone who is the opposite would be next to impossible because no one one would want to do the job is likely to try to get it. Worse, no one one would want to do the job is likely to get elected, even if they were to run. Presidential elections seem like more of a beauty contest than a political election to me.

You can't find any trait or action of President Trump that would make him part of the permanent political class.

Trump praises and compliments and thanks ANY Democrat who isn't trying to destroy him and his agenda. There are precious few of them, and he well understands that the Republican Party holds the only hope he has for getting legislation done that will help America, however tepid that hope is with status quo Republicans heading the party. So far all the Democrats are offering are short term benefits that cannot be sustained and socialist/even fascist initiatives that will hurt us some in the short term and pretty much all in the long term.

What they are offering could damage America to the point it would resemble Venezuela, not that long ago one of the top economies in the world but due to socialist/fascist policies now reduced to a warring, miserable, dangerous place with poverty, even starvation, too much the norm.

And that list of Trump era accomplishments up there. It ALL is much more than the status quo was. And every President has to live with his own administration's record. The Trump Administration is putting out a very VERY commendable record.

How does anybody justify taking the risk to reverse that just because they hate the President?

Not being part of the permanent political class isn't the same as being the opposite.

Democrat and Republican politicians all spend a large amount of time claiming the other 'side' is going to destroy the country, or is in the process of destroying the country. You yourself seem to have just said that Democrats are only doing things which will hurt the country. I find that idea funny, in a sad sort of way. Democrats and Republicans can and do both have ideas that would work for the country, just as both parties come up with ideas that would not. With a Republican controlled Congress and Presidency, the country has one of the highest deficits in history. With a Democrat controlled Congress and Presidency under Obama, the country had the highest deficit in history. Regardless of the party in power we've had wars and conflicts in various countries around the world. Regardless of the party in power we've had decades of the failed war on drugs. We've had the creation, continuation, and even expansion of the intrusive Patriot Act. Both parties seem to have some of the same bad ideas about how to run the government.

Venezuela was a top economy because of their massive oil reserves, I believe. I don't know if they ever had the sort of economy the US does.

Not everyone agrees with your assessment of the state of the country or of the reasons for why things are the way they are. So not everyone will see it as a risk to reverse some of the things that have occurred during the Trump administration.

I'm curious about which Democrats Trump has praised and complimented.

I get it. You really dislike the President and that probably makes you resist giving him credit for the good things that are happening. I can accept that and appreciate your civility in expressing it. We are unlikely to agree on this one though.

Actually, I dislike the president, but I think all presidents get far too much credit for things like the state of the economy. It doesn't matter if it's Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. Very basically, the executive is supposed to enforce policy, not make it, so I tend to think Congress should have more influence on the economy. Further, I think that government in general is given too much credit for the economy. That tends to ignore both the free market and the influence of the rest of the world. It's just one of many examples of where I think people look to the government too quickly as the answer.

 

[Foxfyre]

Trump tells you his record and you believe it without question.

How many times did Obama tell you his "record?" Please tell us how many times you disbelieved it and how you confirmed or refuted it?

That's because he enables your racism.

Please tell us how his record has anything to do with racism? Or do you just see it everywhere you look?

But his record is lousy. He's bragging about an economy he did not create and one that he actually is destroying.

Please document how an economy that has shot off ever since he took office is doing lousy , he did not create and is actually destroying?
Then tell us the economy that Obama created that most called the longest recession in recent history since the Great Depression?

Good points but you would be shot down on one point in a formal debate, i.e. that Obama created the recession. He didn't.

The worst he did to create it was to be one of the Democrats in the majority in Congress who kept insisting there was no problem despite being warned 17 times by President Bush in 2007 and 2008 that the situation was critical. Chris Dodd, Barney Frank et al went before the cameras again and again to say there was no problem. And Pelosi and Reid, majority leaders, refused to consider any legislation to deal with it. Admittedly the Republicans didn't act either when they were in the majority and before it had reached crisis levels.

Obama can take credit however for presiding over the slowest recovery to a recession since the Great Depression and an entirely lackluster economy as a result of that.

You seem to forget this recession was by far the worst since the Great Depression. Recovery takes time but it was steady and trending upward..

I think Trump would have addressed it much more competently and the recovery would not have dragged on for more than a few months are at the most a year or so.

Written in 2012, this is one of the best explanations/comparisons I've seen:

If mismanaging an economic recovery were an Olympic event, President Obama would be standing on the middle platform right now, accepting the gold medal.

Deep recessions are supposed to be followed by strong recoveries, but, under Obama, the worst recession since the 1930s has been followed by the slowest economic recovery in the history of the republic. In a very real sense, there has been no recovery at all—things are still getting worse. . .

. . .For those not familiar with the sport, the Olympic “Worst First Three Years of Economic Recovery” event is a pentathlon—it’s composed of five individual trials.

The trials making up this pentathlon are as follows: 1) total employment growth; 2) unemployment rate reduction; 3) per capita GDP growth; 4) change in the Real Dow; and 5) change in real produced assets.

Because the goal is economic mismanagement, in the total employment growth event, the lowest number wins.

Obama was victorious in this trial by producing an increase in jobs during the first 36 months of his economic recovery of only 1.72%. This handily beat out Bush 43, who turned in a jobs gain of 2.93% during his recovery, and the team of Bush 41 and Bill Clinton, who delivered 3.64% more jobs during theirs. And, Obama absolutely creamed Ronald Reagan, who produced an increase in total jobs of 8.97% during the first three years of the economic recovery that he oversaw. . .​

Obama Wins The Gold For Worst Economic Recovery Ever[/INDENT]

And using real numbers, things did not improve dramatically over the next five years either. Even a lot of Obama's good numbers in lowering unemployment was due to people giving up and dropping out of the work force and/or people accepting fewer hours and/or part time jobs in lieu of good jobs.

 

[Coyote]

The people who are blaming TDS for criticism of Trump were themselves OBS sufferers. Maybe we ought to consider the novel idea that there is legitinate criticosm.

For example, no one claimed Trump is dismantling all environmental regulations. He has however, without thought, attempted to with as many Obama era rules as he can with no study, no careful pro and con consideration of the effects but solely because Obama did it. Many of the people he put in charge are energy industry people who will directly benefit from these actions. Add to that he has had a number of ethically challenged if not downright corrupt people in charge.


His behavior regarding healthcare is similar. No replacement but doing all he can to wreck it. How will that effect people? Now I am willing to give him a positive if he tackles drug prices.

 

[Foxfyre]

What you are describing is a permanent political class that are in it for their own personal benefit and not for those who put them there.

Why I think they hate President Trump so much apart from the fact that he beat their nominee who was supposed to be a shoo in?

1. President Trump is not a politician.

2. President Trump is non partisan.

3. President Trump is not an ideologue.

4. President Trump thumbs his nose at political correctness.

5. President Trump gives no respect to a status quo that has not been producing the results it is supposed to.

6. President Trump sets his objective and goal and then goes from Plan A to B or C or however many different plans it takes to achieve the desired outcome. He doesn't easily take no for an answer, he isn't afraid to try no matter how many say it can't be done, and he isn't afraid to fail along the way until the right solution or fix is found, and if it is important to him, he doesn't quit. (He will sometimes withdraw, regroup, and recalculate before trying again.)

7. President Trump is determined to do the job he set out to do and whether he does it out of ego or an honest desire to help America and Americans, it doesn't matter. He intends to get it done and he has kept campaign promises more faithfully and in actuality than ANY President in my now very long lifetime.

If he is sometimes petulant, petty, cringeworthy, unlikable at times, well that's a small price to pay to get somebody who actually wants to do the job. So I want to keep him.

He is the exact opposite of the professional political class and is a danger to their existance. And that is why they and their supporters in both parties hate him.

1. At this point Trump certainly is a politician. Before being elected, he acted a lot like politicians do; the bad qualities, at least.

2. I honestly don't know where you get this idea that Trump is so non-partisan. He's made comment after comment about how bad Democrats and 'the left' are, hasn't he?

3. Trump doesn't seem to be an ideologue, unless you were to describe promoting the Trump brand as his ideology.

4. True, but thumbing one's nose at political correctness doesn't have to mean being crass and rude.

5. Has the status quo really changed all that much?

6. Unfortunately, at least based on the things he says, Trump seems like the type who not only won't admit to ever failing, but who would keep promoting a failing policy in order to avoid such an admission. He also comes across as a person who would only go from Plan A to B or C if they were his plans, or he could take credit for them. That's just an impression, though.

7. How do you know what Trump, or any president, is determined to do? I have no idea how Trump compares to other presidents as far as keeping campaign promises. If he's kept more than other presidents, that's admirable.

I think most presidents want the job.

I don't think Trump is the opposite of the professional political class. I think he is more like a somewhat tarnished reflection of them. I think getting someone who is the opposite would be next to impossible because no one one would want to do the job is likely to try to get it. Worse, no one one would want to do the job is likely to get elected, even if they were to run. Presidential elections seem like more of a beauty contest than a political election to me.

You can't find any trait or action of President Trump that would make him part of the permanent political class.

Trump praises and compliments and thanks ANY Democrat who isn't trying to destroy him and his agenda. There are precious few of them, and he well understands that the Republican Party holds the only hope he has for getting legislation done that will help America, however tepid that hope is with status quo Republicans heading the party. So far all the Democrats are offering are short term benefits that cannot be sustained and socialist/even fascist initiatives that will hurt us some in the short term and pretty much all in the long term.

What they are offering could damage America to the point it would resemble Venezuela, not that long ago one of the top economies in the world but due to socialist/fascist policies now reduced to a warring, miserable, dangerous place with poverty, even starvation, too much the norm.

And that list of Trump era accomplishments up there. It ALL is much more than the status quo was. And every President has to live with his own administration's record. The Trump Administration is putting out a very VERY commendable record.

How does anybody justify taking the risk to reverse that just because they hate the President?

Not being part of the permanent political class isn't the same as being the opposite.

Democrat and Republican politicians all spend a large amount of time claiming the other 'side' is going to destroy the country, or is in the process of destroying the country. You yourself seem to have just said that Democrats are only doing things which will hurt the country. I find that idea funny, in a sad sort of way. Democrats and Republicans can and do both have ideas that would work for the country, just as both parties come up with ideas that would not. With a Republican controlled Congress and Presidency, the country has one of the highest deficits in history. With a Democrat controlled Congress and Presidency under Obama, the country had the highest deficit in history. Regardless of the party in power we've had wars and conflicts in various countries around the world. Regardless of the party in power we've had decades of the failed war on drugs. We've had the creation, continuation, and even expansion of the intrusive Patriot Act. Both parties seem to have some of the same bad ideas about how to run the government.

Venezuela was a top economy because of their massive oil reserves, I believe. I don't know if they ever had the sort of economy the US does.

Not everyone agrees with your assessment of the state of the country or of the reasons for why things are the way they are. So not everyone will see it as a risk to reverse some of the things that have occurred during the Trump administration.

I'm curious about which Democrats Trump has praised and complimented.

I get it. You really dislike the President and that probably makes you resist giving him credit for the good things that are happening. I can accept that and appreciate your civility in expressing it. We are unlikely to agree on this one though.

Actually, I dislike the president, but I think all presidents get far too much credit for things like the state of the economy. It doesn't matter if it's Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. Very basically, the executive is supposed to enforce policy, not make it, so I tend to think Congress should have more influence on the economy. Further, I think that government in general is given too much credit for the economy. That tends to ignore both the free market and the influence of the rest of the world. It's just one of many examples of where I think people look to the government too quickly as the answer.

You are right. The government can't make a country great in any respect no matter how much left believes it can.

But the government can absolutely prevent the people from accomplishing the goals as stated in the Preamble of the Constitution as well as prosperity when it exercises control, over regulates, over mandates, takes over responsibilities the people were intended to have. Note: I am not saying there is no need for ANY control, regulation, mandates etc., but I am referring to the nonproductive, unnecessary hindrances the government can impose.

President Trump would be the first to say--in fact has said--that government has not created our current economic prosperity and all the benefits we are seeing from it that are the envy of the world. But he properly takes credit for policies that have moved the government out of the way so that the people have done that. Policies that are helping prevent other countries from hindering our own best interests. He deserves all the credit for the role he personally has had in that.

 

[Darkwind]

The only concern I have is the continued rise in the country's debt. Neither party has shown an interest in that issue.
I would like to see more language regarding term limits on the Legislative Branch.
Otherwise Trump has my full support and will get my vote again.

The debt is worrying but the only President who ever balanced the America budget was Andrew Jackson back in the 1840's.

As long as we have a Congress that spends money like it grows on a tree no one will balance the budget.

Another good reason for those term limits.
Get the career elites out. All of them.

I can't really say that I can support term limits because so often we get rid of the devil we know and wind up with one far worse. I look at the amazing knowledge of people like Lindsay Graham, Jim Jordan, et al, how much their experience helps us in understanding what is going on, and how unwise it might be in putting inexperienced rookies in charge of issues most critical to the security and well being of the country. (And yes, I have had my issues with Lindsay in the past too, but I'll have to say he has been exemplary the last couple of years.)

I would far rather see us have a constitutional amendment that maybe allows more annual income for our elected representatives, but that would require them to pass no legislation of any kind that benefits any group or entity that does not benefit all, that would not allow them to dispense charity or grants of any kind. And all contracts would be put out for bids. Further they should pay into their own 401ks or IRAs and health plans--the same plans they force on the rest of us--and take those with them when they leave office with no government retirement after that.

Do that and it removes all incentive for dishonorable lobbying, or for anybody who is in office to benefit himself/herself to stay there or run for office at all. That would leave us with public servants who love America and work for the people again and I don't care how long they stick around.

Something has to be done. They voted themselves half the keys to the country during Carter..then they voted themselves the second half during Reagan's second Congress.

They've been living high on our money and making us poorer ever since.

Lobbying needs to be outlawed period. It is bribery.

There is honorable lobbying. There is nothing wrong with an industry or an entity sending representatives to the State House or Washington to explain why this or that legislation would, could, does, doesn't make things better or creates serious problems. It can be a significant and necessary component to educate legislators who have to make those decisions.

Dishonorable lobbying is that which seeks to bribe, extort, coerce, manipulate advantages from the government. Advantages others probably won't have. The proposals I made to restrict anyone in the federal government from responding to that would eliminate it. And it also prevents those in government from extorting money from groups, industries, unions, entities, etc.

I recommend everybody read this short book for a real education on how that works and why a permanent political class in Washington needs to be broken up.

He has an even better one, and solid information on why Mitch McConnel needs to go.

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Empires-American-Political-Corruption-ebook/dp/B07RC557SQ/?tag=usmb-20

 

[iceberg]

He has torn the country apart, and has left it open to it's enemies, and namely one of it's greatest enemies.

Him being there can only lead to disaster.

Which side is stopping us from controlling illegal immigration again?

 

[Foxfyre]

The people who are blaming TDS for criticism of Trump were themselves OBS sufferers. Maybe we ought to consider the novel idea that there is legitinate criticosm.

For example, no one claimed Trump is dismantling all environmental regulations. He has however, without thought, attempted to with as many Obama era rules as he can with no study, no careful pro and con consideration of the effects but solely because Obama did it. Many of the people he put in charge are energy industry people who will directly benefit from these actions. Add to that he has had a number of ethically challenged if not downright corrupt people in charge.


His behavior regarding healthcare is similar. No replacement but doing all he can to wreck it. How will that effect people? Now I am willing to give him a positive if he tackles drug prices.

Your evidence that the rolled back regulations were done with no study or careful pro and con consideration for the effects? Or are you simply reciting the propaganda/talking points the left puts out about that? Those rolled back regulations have been an important part of the current economic boom as is the stability in a much more business and prosperity friendly tax code.

My husband and I losing our primary care doctors and him losing his trusted cancer doctor as a direct result of Obamacare was enough for me to want to dump the whole thing that President Trump has not done. Nor is he trying to get rid of coverage for pre-existing conditions. He has removed some of the most damning and ridiculous aspects of it which is one of several reasons the economy is now booming and couldn't before. Much more needs to be removed as well.

Obama went before the cameras time and again to assure us that if like our doctor we can keep our doctor, period. If we like our healthcare plan we can keep our healthcare plan, period. Both turned out to be bald faced lies. Doctors and healthcare plans had to comply with Obamacare rules or they were not allowed to be in business.

Obama assured us our taxes would not go up one penny due to Obamacare. Then his lawyers went before the Supreme Court arguing that the mandates were a tax and therefore legal for Congress to enact.

Though they haven't repealed it yet, there wasn't anything in place before Obamacare other than Medicare and Medicaid and the VA. So requiring the government to REPLACE any part of Obamacare with something is pretty short sighted. When you put out a fire, what do you replace it with?

Obama claimed millions who were uninsured before Obamacare now had insurance. But he never admitted that the results were too often such enormous deductibles, copays, and coverage holes for so many people and/or lack of access to healthcare that they were far worse off than they were before. Which has been the case with us in addition to premiums for non government subsidized insurance increasing far more rapidly than it had before.

Partisan talking points are not convincing for those dealing with onerous and unnecessary government taxes, regulation, mandates in the real world. I have run a business that dealt with hundreds of businesses dealing with issues in the real world. So I know first hand, up close and personal why Trump's policies beat most of Obama's hands down.