Thou Shall Never Touch The Tax Cuts

[bush lover]

Our President, who was a successful businessman and governor before becoming one of our greatest presidents ever, knows that deep tax cuts generate additional revenue. Unfortunately, the libs want to hand that money out to their favorite leftist class warfare groups. Our President has to fight this. He needs to allocated these additional revenues to the War on Terrorism and to MORE tax cuts before he leaves office.

 

[jillian]

Depends on your definition of "try". "Trying" for a year or two doesn't cut it. Self made people put in a lifetime of effort. It's taken me over 30 years to get where I am. The real problem is, as I have said before, discipline and staying power, willing to hold to a vision through thick and thin, over the long haul. Most that bother to try come up with an excuse to give up. They make a bad choice or a series of bad choices.

I can take every person on this forum that is unhappy with their state in life, go over their life in detail from age 15 and on and pinpoint the three, four, five or so bad choices they made to get where they are. And it's usually the same things over and over again. Things like

1) Should have stayed in school

2) Should have pushed myself and taken college prep classes instead of the regular stuff

3) Should have majored in something I could have actually made money in, instead of something I could only make a living with by being a teacher....

4) Should have opted for the chevy instead of the bmw

5) Should have signed up for the $50/month payroll deduction for retirement back when I was 25

6) SHould have joined the military and let them pay for college...

7) Should have gotten so mad at my boss I just quit....with nothing else lined up.

8) Should not have shoplifted that blow drier....

9) My kids never needed Nike's when noname sneakers would have done fine....

10) Should have bought my clothes at Penny's instead of Van Maur and Lord and Taylor...

I could go on and on....

Some of what you're talking about is good decision-making. Some of what you're talking about is being frugal. But when you're working a minimum wage job and trying to support a family, there isn't anything *but* being frugal. That's a function of necessity, not judgment. (Though that's not to say that people who are poor are always smart about things like not using credit).

Thing is, the skills needed for good decision making are often taught by example. A good percentage of the population doesn't have the advantage of that type of good example.

Again, though, I think we were talking about shrinking middle class and a widening divide between rich and poor. That is not accounted for by decision-making, necessarily. That has to do with opportunity and outsourcing of jobs for skilled labor. Not everyone is equipped to work for themselves. If they were, everyone would be wealthy. However, the middle class is shaped by the availablitiy of opportunity: education, jobs for skilled labor, upward mobility. Those are the things that are societally-based... not whether everyone can be a millionaire.

 

[Bern80]

Some of what you're talking about is good decision-making. Some of what you're talking about is being frugal. But when you're working a minimum wage job and trying to support a family, there isn't anything *but* being frugal. That's a function of necessity, not judgment. (Though that's not to say that people who are poor are always smart about things like not using credit).

But how the got there in the first place could very well be a function of judgement.

Again, though, I think we were talking about shrinking middle class and a widening divide between rich and poor. That is not accounted for by decision-making, necessarily. That has to do with opportunity and outsourcing of jobs for skilled labor. Not everyone is equipped to work for themselves. If they were, everyone would be wealthy. However, the middle class is shaped by the availablitiy of opportunity: education, jobs for skilled labor, upward mobility. Those are the things that are societally-based... not whether everyone can be a millionaire.

Oh, I believe it is probably mostly attributable to our decision makeing. Think about how the character of our society has changed over time. You've heard me say this before, but our collective mentality is an instant gratification one. We are a convenience obsessed society. We constantly find ways to do things with less effort. It means that we are shifting to the point where if a person is given a decision between a difficult task or an easy one, you will probably pick easy. And for most people, while very doable, attaining wealth will not be easy so they don't persue it for that very reason.

 

[jillian]

But how the got there in the first place could very well be a function of judgement.

Yeah, couldn't possibly have anything to do with being born into a poor as dirt family where they couldn't think about more than where their next meal was coming from. Nahhhhhhhhhh... .there's nothing kids learn from their parents about survival. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Oh, I believe it is probably mostly attributable to our decision makeing. Think about how the character of our society has changed over time. You've heard me say this before, but our collective mentality is an instant gratification one. We are a convenience obsessed society. We constantly find ways to do things with less effort. It means that we are shifting to the point where if a person is given a decision between a difficult task or an easy one, you will probably pick easy. And for most people, while very doable, attaining wealth will not be easy so they don't persue it for that very reason.

Of course, shrinking middle class has nothing to do with manufacturing jobs being sent to China and Mexico and tech jobs going to India.

When was the last time you called customer service for your computer? Next time, ask them how things are in Delhi.

 

[Bern80]

Yeah, couldn't possibly have anything to do with being born into a poor as dirt family where they couldn't think about more than where their next meal was coming from. Nahhhhhhhhhh... .there's nothing kids learn from their parents about survival. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Of course it could.

Of course, shrinking middle class has nothing to do with manufacturing jobs being sent to China and Mexico and tech jobs going to India.

So there's no merit to the notion that our mentality has something to do with this widening gap? Quite dodging by responding with rhetorical questions.

When was the last time you called customer service for your computer? Next time, ask them how things are in Delhi.

Have you thought about the alternative? Those jobs mover overseas so companies can cut costs. If those jobs were here who do you suppose that expenses get passed on to? The consumer. So now your poor unmarried mother of 3 has to pay even more for goods and services. So what's your plan, regulate companies and tell them they can only charge so much even if it means operating at a loss (which would probably cause your poor unmarried mother of 3 to get layed off)?

 

[midcan5]

"This kind of inequality should be a source of concern. Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Steve Ballmer, and the other millionaires and billionaires of Microsoft are brilliant, hardworking, entrepreneurial, and justly wealthy. But only the first 5% of their wealth can be justified as an economic incentive to encourage entrepreneurship and enterprise. The next 95% would create much more happiness and opportunity if it was divided evenly among US citizens or others than if they were to consume any portion of it.

An unequal society cannot help but be an unjust society. The most important item that parents in any society try to buy is a head start for their children. And the wealthier they are, the bigger the head start. Societies that promise equality of opportunity thus cannot afford to allow inequality of outcomes to become too great."

Inequality on the March by J. Bradford DeLong
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/delong55

 

[Bern80]

"This kind of inequality should be a source of concern. Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Steve Ballmer, and the other millionaires and billionaires of Microsoft are brilliant, hardworking, entrepreneurial, and justly wealthy. But only the first 5% of their wealth can be justified as an economic incentive to encourage entrepreneurship and enterprise. The next 95% would create much more happiness and opportunity if it was divided evenly among US citizens or others than if they were to consume any portion of it.

An unequal society cannot help but be an unjust society. The most important item that parents in any society try to buy is a head start for their children. And the wealthier they are, the bigger the head start. Societies that promise equality of opportunity thus cannot afford to allow inequality of outcomes to become too great."

Inequality on the March by J. Bradford DeLong
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/delong55

Where exactley did he pull that completely arbitrary number out of? That paragraph is riddled with false assumptions. is it really just to take from those that have earned and give to those that haven't?

You're aware this isn't a socialist country and that socialism has failed wherever attempted right? What is more just then a society that rewards people for their efforts?

 

[Zoomie1980]

"This kind of inequality should be a source of concern. Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Steve Ballmer, and the other millionaires and billionaires of Microsoft are brilliant, hardworking, entrepreneurial, and justly wealthy. But only the first 5% of their wealth can be justified as an economic incentive to encourage entrepreneurship and enterprise. The next 95% would create much more happiness and opportunity if it was divided evenly among US citizens or others than if they were to consume any portion of it.

An unequal society cannot help but be an unjust society. The most important item that parents in any society try to buy is a head start for their children. And the wealthier they are, the bigger the head start. Societies that promise equality of opportunity thus cannot afford to allow inequality of outcomes to become too great."

Inequality on the March by J. Bradford DeLong
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/delong55

Uhhh.....that's been tried several times in the 20th century....and has failed everywhere it has been tried, in one major case, catastrophically with the collapse of a Socialist empire. To this day it continues to be a failure in Western Europe where growth has been minimal and unemployment has remained stuck in double digits across most of the region. The most vibrant, growing economies in Europe? EASTERN Europe in the former iron curtain countries whose growth rivals that of the Pacific Rim, who have all adopted versions of "Reaganomics" much like Pacific Rim nations have.

 

[Bern80]

Uhhh.....that's been tried several times in the 20th century....and has failed everywhere it has been tried, in one major case, catastrophically with the collapse of a Socialist empire. To this day it continues to be a failure in Western Europe where growth has been minimal and unemployment has remained stuck in double digits across most of the region. The most vibrant, growing economies in Europe? EASTERN Europe in the former iron curtain countries whose growth rivals that of the Pacific Rim, who have all adopted versions of "Reaganomics" much like Pacific Rim nations have.

At the very least it's nice to see a lib admit they're more interested in equal outcomes than equal opportunity.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

At the very least it's nice to see a lib admit they're more interested in equal outcomes than equal opportunity.

Midcan is more than a Liberal.

 

[Shogun]

Where exactley did he pull that completely arbitrary number out of? That paragraph is riddled with false assumptions. is it really just to take from those that have earned and give to those that haven't?

You're aware this isn't a socialist country and that socialism has failed wherever attempted right? What is more just then a society that rewards people for their efforts?

THATS rich.


So, did socialist russia fall on its own volition or because of the influence of a capitolst nation during the cold war? The same with socialist Cuba. Funny, I don't see China rolling over anytime soon. Venezuela? VIETNAM?



false assumptions.. thats a knee slapper!

 

[RetiredGySgt]

THATS rich.


So, did socialist russia fall on its own volition or because of the influence of a capitolst nation during the cold war? The same with socialist Cuba. Funny, I don't see China rolling over anytime soon. Venezuela? VIETNAM?



false assumptions.. thats a knee slapper!

Those 3 nations are no longer running their economies on a socialist model. And Venezuela is LOSING money because it is headed to that socialist utopia.

The Soviet Union fell because it could not compete with the West on an economic level, so badly they collapsed. And Cuba is a basket case, but they get business and money from other nations, hardly a totally socialist view.

 

[Foxfyre]

I have long thought that Congress should employ my favorite economist, Thomas Sowell, to write the tax policy, and that it should be mandatory for elected officials to memorize his rationale for why every congressperson and senator should vote to make it law.

Here are just some of his one-liners for which he has written much longer versions explaining why each is true:

"Liberalism is totalitarianism with a human face" (. . .other countries call it socialism.)

"Liberals seem to assume that, if you don't believe in their particular political solutions, then you don't really care about the people that they claim to want to help"

"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it"

"One of the consequences of such notions as "entitlements" is that people who have contributed nothing to society feel that society owes them something, apparently just for being nice enough to grace us with their presence."

"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics."

"The assumption that spending more of the taxpayer's money will make things better has survived all kinds of evidence that it has made things worse. The black family- which survived slavery, discrimination, poverty, wars and depressions- began to come apart as the federal government moved in with its well-financed programs to "help."

"Elections should be held on April 16th- the day after we pay our income taxes. That is one of the few things that might discourage politicians from being big spenders."