This Pride Sign Is at the Entrance of a WA School

[Seymour Flops]

I am a bit confused but this is what I do know. Some trans-people -men and women identify as gay and some consider themselves straight.

For instance, a trans woman may be attracted to ciswomen (or transwomen) and therefore she is a lesbian. If she is attracted to cismen (or transmen) She is straight

Yes, and all that is wonderful, I really mean it. All part of being a grown up and doing like you please in a free society. I'm libertarian, if I haven't mentioned that. I love that adults are free to have sex with whoever they like in whatever way they like with whatever number they like.

Kids will grow up with all kinds of feeling and they have plenty of time between when those feeling start and when they become adults to figure out what they like. Their parents will be as supportive as their parent choose to be, in whatever way the parents choose to be. What the do not need is for staff of government schools to take it upon themselves to judge whether the parents way of being supportive is sufficient or whether they, as government officials, need to step in.

You may feel that if parents are not supportive of a fourth grader who announces that they are trans, then a school counselor has a duty to step in. To understand how that sounds to a parent, ask yourself would it be acceptable for an adult to talk "straight" sex with children. Imagine the following dialogue between a heterosexual cis male elementary school counselor and an eight year-old female student. Let's call them Lisa and Mr. Farnsworth:

Lisa: Mr. Farnsworth, I'm really starting to look at boys, I mean a lot. I am very attracted to them. But when I talk to my parents, they say I don't need to be thinking about boys and that I shouldn't do anything about my feelings.

Farnsworth: Oh, Lisa. Your feelings just mean that you may be heterosexual, often called straight. It is as natural as any other feeling. I'm sorry that your parents are not more supportive. Come into my office, and I'll close the door and answer any questions you have. I don't have to mention this to your parents, don't worry.

You would see how inappropriate that would be, so why would it be any different with a kid who announces they are trans in whatever words they would use, and a counselor respond in a similar way?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

I'm aware of that distinction, but I didn't express it well, my fault. I understand that trans =/= gay.

I didn't mean two gay men, I meant a transwoman and a man who enjoys sex with a cis male who enjoys sex with a transwoman. In the transwoman's mind, she is a woman having heterosexual sex with a man. But the AIDS virus can transmit just as easily as from a gay male top to a gay male bottom, if the sex between transwoman and cis man is anal sex.

If it never happens, no one should be virulently opposed to banning it. Suppose some conservative PAC proposed banning exceeding the speed of light on federal highways. I could understand rolling your eyes and saying that law is not needed because that doesn't happen. But, would you get into the kind of twist that they left is getting into over banning discussing gender issues with third grade and below?

Why worry about a ban on that if it never happens, anyway?

I think I have an answer to that, but I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt, so I'll ask this: How would you define "supportive parent," when it comes to a fourth grader who announces that they are transgender?

They should be taken seriously and be allowed to be who they want to be. Tell them -as I think you said- that some kids change their minds and that you are open to whatever he or she decides. Let then know that they may encounter others who will ridicule and torment them, but that you, and hopefully others will be their for them.

f it never happens, no one should be virulently opposed to banning it. Suppose some conservative PAC proposed banning exceeding the speed of light on federal highways. I could understand rolling your eyes and saying that law is not needed because that doesn't happen. But, would you get into the kind of twist that they left is getting into over banning discussing gender issues with third grade and below?

Friend, they want to ban any and all discussion of gender and sexuality based in part on the false claim that they are "grooming " the kids and influencing their gender identity and sexual orientation. I would not be opposed to a ban on grooming if they could come up with a rational and identifiable definition of it that does not include such things as banning age appropriate discussion of gender and sexuality or instruction on tolerance and respect for others. But these loons freak out at the simple suggestion that it is OK to be gay or trans and call that grooming. It is not.

There are "groomers " out there to be sure and some are in schools. People who gain the confidence and trust of kids for nefarious purposes- usually to have sex with them, not to steer them in terms of sexuality. If they are successful that is of course already illegal

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

I think I have an answer to that, but I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt, so I'll ask this: How would you define "supportive parent," when it comes to a fourth grader who announces that they are transgender?

They should be taken seriously and be allowed to be who they want to be. Tell them -as I think you said- that some kids change their minds and that you are open to whatever he or she decides. They must befree and given permission to express their gender as they see fit. The alternative is often suicide

Let then know that they may encounter others who will ridicule and torment them, but that you, and hopefully others will be their for them. That is why it is so important to have these programs that teach tolerance in the schools. The parent can't be there all of the time

It would be a bit soon for any discussion of hormonal replacement and certainly not surgery. The sex part can wait too

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

What the do not need is for staff of government schools to take it upon themselves to judge whether the parents way of being supportive is sufficient or whether they, as government officials, need to step in.

Well, I do not know how many different ways there are of being supportive. The conflict seems to be between being supportive and the lack of support or outright rejection. The later may rise to the level of emotional abuse and it may well be appropriate for the government to step in whether it is an educator, or protective services which I worked in for many years although that was before this all reached the boiling point. But this is as much about teaching values as anything else- and I have no problem with a school instilling such values as respect and tolerance. There will be some homophobic bigoted parents that will have a problem, but my position is that they are doing a disservice to the child and that child must be exposed to alternative views if they are to make it in this life

 

[Seymour Flops]

They should be taken seriously and be allowed to be who they want to be. Tell them -as I think you said- that some kids change their minds and that you are open to whatever he or she decides. Let then know that they may encounter others who will ridicule and torment them, but that you, and hopefully others will be their for them.

Yes, the ridicule and torment part should also be explained to kids who express Christian beliefs in public school. Or wear a MAGA hat. Or wear a pro-Biden t-shirt. Or wear Muslim garb. Or kids who are smart but socially awkward. Or kids who are not good at sports, but required to play them during PE. I feel like this post could exceed the posting limit if I go on.

In fact, I wonder if there should be a blanket lesson that everyone gets bullied at some time in their lives, so changing who you are and how you act to avoid being bullied is futile. The best strategy is to develop resiliency, and to learn how to avoid the bullies, and that there is safety in numbers.

Well, that is actually the second best strategy. I got bullied in middle school because I was short (still am). My father, also a short man, told me how he dealt with bullying when he was in junior high. I tried it the next day and it worked like a charm. The school suspended me, but my parents were very supportive.

Every student I have that expresses that they are LGBT-Q, I want to give them the website for this anti-bullying organization on their 18th birthday, but I fear I would be risking my job, and being demonized by both left and right.

https://pinkpistols.org/PPUtilityManual.pdf

Friend, they want to ban any and all discussion of gender and sexuality based in part on the false claim that they are "grooming " the kids and influencing their gender identity and sexual orientation. I would not be opposed to a ban on grooming if they could come up with a rational and identifiable definition of it that does not include such things as banning age appropriate discussion of gender and sexuality or instruction on tolerance and respect for others.

I think that bolded part is a big overstatement. As with any type of speech, time, manner and place are important considerations. Teachers, or other school officials talking to third graders and below about gender and sexuality at school is not the time manner and place, according to the elected lawmakers of Florida. I don't know how I can say that they are wrong.

Do you have any other examples of bans that you oppose?

But these loons freak out at the simple suggestion that it is OK to be gay or trans and call that grooming. It is not.

I don't think that is grooming. I hope you agree that the imaginary dialogue I described would be inappropriate, whether grooming or not, and regardless of the sexuality expressed by the child.

Let me get your honest opinion: Suppose a student tells a counselor that they are trans or gay and the counselor says, "It's Ok to be trans or gay," and the student says, "My parents don't think so."

What should the counselor say next?

There are "groomers " out there to be sure and some are in schools. People who gain the confidence and trust of kids for nefarious purposes- usually to have sex with them, not to steer them in terms of sexuality. If they are successful that is of course already illegal

Banning "grooming" specifically can have its own pitfalls.

Outrage of the Morning: Lunch Lady Accused of “Grooming” A Kid | Free-Range Kids

www.freerangekids.com

I certainly believe that a teacher can talk to to a student about sexuality, with no intention of being a predator. But I also believe that being given free reign to talk to children about sexuality with parents being kept in the dark would be boon to a person who is predisposed to be a predator.

In Texas, we have a program called SHAC, which is the School Health Advisor Counsel. Each district has one, composed of teachers and parents. They agree on exactly what will be taught in the district about sex and sexuality and they require the teachers to teach that and only that, on specified days.

One community may decide that sex can be taught anytime a student brings it up, and there are no limits to what the adults and students can talk about. Another may decide, as mine does, that a canned curriculum will be taught by trained teachers on the normally wasted days following standardized testing. In my district, the emphasis is on avoiding pregnancy, so homosexuality is not mentioned.

I'm sure that many teachers talk to students about sexuality "off the record." I allow my behavior students to talk about whatever they want, but I don't offer them input into that, usually. I don't think that would run afoul of the Florida law, if I were teaching there. I'd check, but I'm tired of looking it up to dispute false claims about it.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Lisa: Mr. Farnsworth, I'm really starting to look at boys, I mean a lot. I am very attracted to them. But when I talk to my parents, they say I don't need to be thinking about boys and that I shouldn't do anything about my feelings.

Farnsworth: Oh, Lisa. Your feelings just mean that you may be heterosexual, often called straight. It is as natural as any other feeling. I'm sorry that your parents are not more supportive. Come into my office, and I'll close the door and answer any questions you have. I don't have to mention this to your parents, don't worry.

You would see how inappropriate that would be, so why would it be any different with a kid who announces they are trans in whatever words they would use, and a counselor respond in a similar way?

Of course Farnsworth is being inappropriate ! "Come into my office, and I'll close the door and answer any questions you have. I don't have to mention this to your parents, don't worry." Are you serious? Why is he mentioning heterosexuality? This is not what I mean when I talk about being supportive and it is not what is happening with gay or trans kids. Just let the kid know that what they are feeling is normal. Ask if she has discussed it with her parents. Ask if she in in any form of counselling and if she would like to be. Do not get into the details of sexual relationships.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Well, I do not know how many different ways there are of being supportive. The conflict seems to be between being supportive and the lack of support or outright rejection. The later may rise to the level of emotional abuse and it may well be appropriate for the government to step in whether it is an educator, or protective services which I worked in for many years although that was before this all reached the boiling point. But this is as much about teaching values as anything else- and I have no problem with a school instilling such values as respect and tolerance. There will be some homophobic bigoted parents that will have a problem, but my position is that they are doing a disservice to the child and that child must be exposed to alternative views if they are to make it in this life

I think that school officials and protective service case workers or investigators (sorry, I don't know what they are called) have to be very, very careful not to let themselves think that a parent who does not parent exactly the way the government official would parent their child rises to abuse.

As far as I know, parents still have the right to teach their children that homosexuality is immoral and/or wrong, etc. Catholicism, the religion clung to by our President and Speaker of the House, teaches that it is a sin. So does evangelical Christianity, the religion of the president before the current one, and so does Islam, the religion of the president before him. Is that bigoted? I say yes. But it is not out of the mainstream.

That said, I believe that when a parent sends their child to a government school, they cannot expect to control every part of what is taught to or said to that child. Taxpayers, not parents, fund the schools, and voters elect those who run the schools. Obviously there is overlap in those groups, but the power to influence what is done in public schools comes from the power to vote in and out those who set policy, not from having kids in those schools.

In Florida, the voters decided that gender and sexuality are not appropriate topics for Pre-K through third graders in school. In Texas, the SHAC committees make those decisions, in accordance with law passed by Texas elected officials.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Of course Farnsworth is being inappropriate ! "Come into my office, and I'll close the door and answer any questions you have. I don't have to mention this to your parents, don't worry." Are you serious? Why is he mentioning heterosexuality? This is not what I mean when I talk about being supportive and it is not what is happening with gay or trans kids. Just let the kid know that what they are feeling is normal. Ask if she has discussed it with her parents. Ask if she in in any form of counselling and if she would like to be. Do not get into the details of sexual relationships.

So don't say gay?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Every student I have that expresses that they are LGBT-Q, I want to give them the website for this anti-bullying organization on their 18th birthday, but I fear I would be risking my job, and being demonized by both left and right.

So you're a teacher. Very nice. But why would your job be at risk for providing an anti bullying resource?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

I think that school officials and protective service case workers or investigators (sorry, I don't know what they are called) have to be very, very careful not to let themselves think that a parent who does not parent exactly the way the government official would parent their child rises to abuse.

They are careful, but must also recognize when a line has been crossed

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

As far as I know, parents still have the right to teach their children that homosexuality is immoral and/or wrong, etc. Catholicism, the religion clung to by our President and Speaker of the House, teaches that it is a sin. So does evangelical Christianity, the religion of the president before the current one, and so does Islam, the religion of the president before him. Is that bigoted? I say yes. But it is not out of the mainstream.

Actually, parents have to right to express their views to children on thsre things and encourage them follow suit. They do not have the right to brainwash them and to prevent them from being exposed to other viewpoints. And Obama is no a Muslim but I really would not care if he was

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

That said, I believe that when a parent sends their child to a government school, they cannot expect to control every part of what is taught to or said to that child. Taxpayers, not parents, fund the schools, and voters elect those who run the schools. Obviously there is overlap in those groups, but the power to influence what is done in public schools comes from the power to vote in and out those who set policy, not from having kids in those schools.

You seem to have a problem with government schools. What sort of school do you teach in?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

So don't say gay?

No I did not say that. In this case, sexual orientation was not an issue and need not have been brought up. But you should certainly be able to say gay in the context of a general discussion about sexuality

 

[Seymour Flops]

Actually, parents have to right to express their views to children on there things and encourage them follow suit. They do not have the right to brainwash them and to prevent them from being exposed to other viewpoints.

As I said, if they send them to public schools, they will be exposed to other viewpoints. I do think that parents have the right to choose not to let their children be exposed to specific viewpoints. For example, I would not have wanted my children to be exposed to a white supremist viewpoint. If they had friends who espoused that, I would forbid them from associating with them. I know they will be exposed to that sooner or later, but while they were children, I controlled their access to that kind of thing, while preparing them to deal with exposure to it later.

Every concerned parent does that, controls their child's access to viewpoints. Our differences are in what we find acceptable and not acceptable.

And Obama is no a Muslim but I really would not care if he was

Neither do I. He was raised Muslim and of course was influenced by the Islamic religion and culture. I think there is an element of Islamophobia in some of his supporters supposed outrage at the mentioning of this fact.

 

[Seymour Flops]

So you're a teacher. Very nice. But why would your job be at risk for providing an anti bullying resource?

I think the conservative element would accuse me of steering the child to a gay organization and the liberal element would accuse me of steering a child to a group of gun nuts. Being a libertarian means being stuck in the middle pretty often, but it keeps life interesting.

 

[Seymour Flops]

You seem to have a problem with government schools. What sort of school do you teach in?

Not all all. I teach in public school. I started a thread about my district, in the Education forum. but I fictionalized the names of the district and schools. Unfortunately, it was derailed by a poster feigning outrage that I fictionalized the district, so the very interesting (at least I thought so) stories I tell are going unread.

My problem is with parents who imagine that, because they are parents, they should or do control how schools are run. Alsol with school officials and teachers who think that because the are school staff, they should or do control how schools are run.

Government schools are government run. That comes with the same downsides that other programs have. The private schools have their downsides also, don't get me wrong.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

As I said, if they send them to public schools, they will be exposed to other viewpoints. I do think that parents have the right to choose not to let their children be exposed to specific viewpoints. For example, I would not have wanted my children to be exposed to a white supremist viewpoint. If they had friends who espoused that, I would forbid them from associating with them. I know they will be exposed to that sooner or later, but while they were children, I controlled their access to that kind of thing, while preparing them to deal with exposure to it later.

I understand what you are saying but forbidding kids to do anything or to associate with certain people can and often does backfire. If they are drawn to a culture that you disapprove of, they may only become more entrenched if you push back to hard. The best approach is to have an honest ongoing dialogue with them and let them know what you believe and why

 

[Bob Blaylock]

There will be some homophobic bigoted parents that will have a problem…

By that, of course, everyone knows that what you mean is parents who do not want some sick pedophile sexually fucking with their children.

That's nearly all parents.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

By that, of course, everyone knows that what you mean is parents who do not want some sick pedophile sexually fucking with their children.

That's nearly all parents.

Get the fuck over it Bobby Boy

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

OK Slick. Let's try this. Look at post 231 and tell what you think. What do you agree with and what do you disagree with? Let's see if you are going to run from this too.

As I thought, You are still running. You are still a fucking coward, Nothing remotely intelligent to contribute! What a fucking mess!

Weatherman2020