this is why we went to iraq?

[DKSuddeth]

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Joy at the capture of Saddam Hussein gave way to resentment toward Washington Monday as Iraqis confronted afresh the bloodshed, shortages and soaring prices of life under U.S. occupation.


The morning after Iraq's U.S. governor revealed the ousted strongman was a disheveled prisoner, Iraqis flooded the streets to snatch up newspapers emblazoned with photos of the man who ruled them by fear, now humbled and captive.


Many were ecstatic to see Saddam captured and hoped he would answer for his deeds but said they would not rush to thank America -- in their eyes the source of their problems since a U.S.-led coalition toppled Saddam in April.


"I hope that we get the chance to try him our way, to let everyone who suffered make him taste what he had made us taste," said Ali Hussein, 29, a stationery shop owner who said he was still dizzy with joy.


"But whether he's in a hole or in jail, it does nothing for me today, it won't feed me or protect me or send my children to school," he said.


Even as news of Saddam's capture sank in, car bombs ripped through two police stations in the capital, the latest in a series of attacks U.S. forces blame on loyalists of Saddam and on foreign "terrorists" infiltrating Iraq.


President Bush warned that catching Saddam would not end attacks by people who do not "accept the rise of liberty in the heart of the Middle East," implying a pledge of a better life many Iraqis said Bush was failing to keep.


"It's great that he's caught, but it wasn't him who screwed up the petrol and the electricity and everything else so badly, so now a canister of gas that was 250 dinars costs 4,000, if you can get one," said Ghazi, a 52-year-old dentist, from his car as he queued with hundreds of other drivers waiting for petrol.


"This is an oil country and it should be rich. It should not be Afghanistan."


Other drivers echoed the complaints of chronic fuel shortages in a country with the world's second-largest oil reserves, as well as of their treatment at the hands of troops who have killed civilians while hunting suspected Saddam partisans or pursuing criminals with Iraqi police.


"The Americans promised freedom and prosperity; what's this? Go up to their headquarters, at one of those checkpoints where they point their guns at you, and tell them that you hate them as much as Saddam, and see what they do to you," said Mohammad Saleh, 39, a building contractor.


"The only difference is that Saddam would kill you in private, where the Americans will kill you in public," he said.


"A lot of things -- safety, freedom, prosperity -- that we were supposed to have are gone. They promised many things, and now that they have caught Saddam maybe they kept one."

 

[jimnyc]

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the title "this is why we went to iraq?"

Getting Saddam Hussein was top priority and it's now a done deal. Did you think things would be back to normal overnight? It took this man 30 years to annihilate this country, at least give it a few years before they start prospering from their freedom.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Getting Saddam Hussein was top priority and it's now a done deal.

Weapons of Mass Destruction and husseins refusal to produce them or records of destroying them were top priority.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the title "this is why we went to iraq?"

I'm 'getting at' the issue of these people bitching about us not finding hussein and now that we've found him, it goes right back to bitching about us being there.

We shouldn't have gone in because most of us knew these people would not appreciate freedom from hussein. They weren't ready for independence.

 

[jimnyc]

Weapons of Mass Destruction and husseins refusal to produce them or records of destroying them were top priority.

No, you're making it YOUR top priority. The USA has stated various reasons for going into Iraq from the beginning, and it's ALWAYS been to remove the threat that Saddam Hussein posed to the world.

I'm 'getting at' the issue of these people bitching about us not finding hussein and now that we've found him, it goes right back to bitching about us being there.

You read a few quotes from 21 year olds in Iraq and take it as gospel. I guess you ignored the thousands upon thousand dancing in the streets in celebration. The only bitching is coming from the liberals.

We shouldn't have gone in because most of us knew these people would not appreciate freedom from hussein. They weren't ready for independence.

Yeah, you're right, we should have let the killing fields reign supreme.

 

[DKSuddeth]

No, you're making it YOUR top priority. The USA has stated various reasons for going into Iraq from the beginning, and it's ALWAYS been to remove the threat that Saddam Hussein posed to the world.

No, President Bush made it top priority. How many speeches and news conferences did he and his administration members state he could hand off WMD's to terrorists?

You read a few quotes from 21 year olds in Iraq and take it as gospel. I guess you ignored the thousands upon thousand dancing in the streets in celebration.

you take a few quotes from someone in the white house and read it as gospel....but face the fact, the majority of those iraqi morons, while glad to be rid of hussein, are showing a piss poor gratitude about it. Now, would that be because they just have a piss poor attitude or because the white house has failed to live up to its side of the deal with peace and prosperity? If you read the article at all you'd see that theres plenty to be pissed about. Would you be happy having to pay 4 dollars a gallon?

The only bitching is coming from the liberals.

You'd better open your eyes and ears a bit more. there are plenty of republicans who are also not happy with the presidents policies.

Yeah, you're right, we should have let the killing fields reign supreme.

thats pretty damn funny how you can pick and choose about which people need to be saved or liberated as to which people you could give a damn about. I don't see you bitching about the rotten ass life that the north korean people have, or that the non-violent palestinians want to pursue.

You can't force freedom and independence on a people if they are not ready for it, despite the good intentions you might have about it.

 

[jimnyc]

No, President Bush made it top priority. How many speeches and news conferences did he and his administration members state he could hand off WMD's to terrorists?

And with him captured I guess that's no longer a possibility! Is that so hard to understand?

you take a few quotes from someone in the white house and read it as gospel....but face the fact, the majority of those iraqi morons, while glad to be rid of hussein, are showing a piss poor gratitude about it. Now, would that be because they just have a piss poor attitude or because the white house has failed to live up to its side of the deal with peace and prosperity? If you read the article at all you'd see that theres plenty to be pissed about. Would you be happy having to pay 4 dollars a gallon?

BZZZZZZ! Wrong! I've probably read a few hundred articles in the last 24 hours alone, and the overall consensus is that the Iraq people are elated to be rid of Saddam, and the rest of the world is in acknowledgement and also elated in his capture. They're a bit naive if they thought things would be rosy overnight or that economic issues would immediately be cured. And again, the overall consensus is that it's a great thing that Saddam is gone and now is the time to start making real progress. Bitching about what has or hasn't happened in less than 24 hours is dumb.

You'd better open your eyes and ears a bit more. there are plenty of republicans who are also not happy with the presidents policies.

Define plenty, and specify exactly what policies you refer to. I think it's fair to say that the overwhelming majority of republicans are pleased with Bush and progress in Iraq.

thats pretty damn funny how you can pick and choose about which people need to be saved or liberated as to which people you could give a damn about. I don't see you bitching about the rotten ass life that the north korean people have, or that the non-violent palestinians want to pursue.

That's pretty damn funny that you ignore the fact that we were involved in war with Iraq. To infer that I don't give a damn about people in other countries simply because I spoke out in benefit of the Iraqi people makes you look foolish. This news is on the forefront right now, I don't think it's unexpected that it gets most talked about. Did I ever once state that civilians in NK don't deserve to be liberated from their wacky leader? Discussing the situation in Iraq doesn't equate to ignoring the people in NK.

You can't force freedom and independence on a people if they are not ready for it, despite the good intentions you might have about it.

We can and we did. What they do with it in the future will be up to them. I hope they're smart enough to capitalize on the situation.

 

[lilcountriegal]

No, President Bush made it top priority

Actually, no DK, I take exception to this. President Bush's top reason for going into Iraq was simply stated as a regime change needed, that Saddam needed to be removed from power. Secondary reasonings were his ability to use chemical weapons, yes, but that was not Bush's priority. You may be mistaking Bush for Tony Blair, who gave the WMD reasoning to the people from GB (I'm surprised you didnt hear this story when Bush visited Blair).

Just wanted to jump in and clear that one up.

With the latest capture of Saddam and the pictures of all the people dancing in the streets, I would tend to believe that picture. That is something I can see. What you posted is an article interviewing a couple Iraqis... what I see on television is a completely different story.

I can counter your post with other articles from Iraqis that are thanking Bush, thanking America. It means nothing. Its all in the hands of the interviewer and who he chooses to interview. There are stories from both sides out there, DK.

 

[DKSuddeth]

And with him captured I guess that's no longer a possibility! Is that so hard to understand?

no longer a possibility? for hussein to hand them off, yes. Where are they? Do we know? If they were even there then I'd say we have a bigger problem at hand and capturing hussein meant little except to the iraqi people. While they may have celebrated the capture its obvious that they still have an issue with US occupation. I say its piss poor planning on the DoD and white house side of it and thats why they seem unhappy with us.

They're a bit naive if they thought things would be rosy overnight or that economic issues would immediately be cured. And again, the overall consensus is that it's a great thing that Saddam is gone and now is the time to start making real progress. Bitching about what has or hasn't happened in less than 24 hours is dumb.

are the only articles you've read concern the capture of hussein? Did you read the article about iraqi army desertions because of pay? just how much are you keeping up with? are you only interested in how things affect the US then?

While you may think its dumb to bitch in less than 24 hours you don't have the luxury of experiencing life in their shoes. Calling them naive based on their perceptions of what life should be like after hussein and its not happening is pure speculation and bad judgement on your part. You have no clue how they are living over there, and if you did you wouldn't be making that rush to judgement.

Define plenty, and specify exactly what policies you refer to. I think it's fair to say that the overwhelming majority of republicans are pleased with Bush and progress in Iraq.

I'd define plenty as in about 1/3rd, but don't take my word for it, im only a liberal. I think its fair to say that blinders might be required issue for those that refuse to see the bad side of bush policies.

We can and we did. What they do with it in the future will be up to them. I hope they're smart enough to capitalize on the situation.

when the country, and the world, sees that we wasted our time, effort, and money on a failed 'nation building' exercise to impose freedom on a nation then maybe you'll accept the fact that forced independence will not work.

 

[eric]

There is one comment I would like to inject into this discussion. Let us not make the mistake of confusing freedom with democracy. To say that people are not ready for freedom and independence or that they don't want it, IMHO, is just plain wrong. What they may not want, understand, appreciate, or are ready for is democracy, not freedom. Every Human being, in fact every animal, has a need for freedom hard-wired into their being. We did not start our journey of evolution on this planet in bondage to anyone or anything, we roamed free. Cage or corner any animal and tell me their reaction, tell me this is what they desire, well, we are no different. Inside all of us is a natural love of freedom and a desire to excersize it, again it is part of our makeup. As sophisticated as you think we might be, every human makes decisions based on one of two factors, to avoid pain, or to gain pleasure, nothing more, nothing less. They drive and motivate all of our actions, whether we realize it or not. Think about the last decision you made and be honest with yourself while thinking about what I just said, you will see my point. Freedom satisfies both of the above and that is why is such a powerful desire in the human psyche. It is not that people do not desire freedom or are afraid of it, but rather they do not know how to conduct themselves in a free society or economic system. It is democracy, captialism, and man made systems that intimidate people not freedom. Would you not agree?

 

[DKSuddeth]

yeah, I can agree with that eric. Thanks for the interjection.

I've got a job interview to go to, talk to you all later.

:cof:

 

[jimnyc]

no longer a possibility? for hussein to hand them off, yes. Where are they? Do we know? If they were even there then I'd say we have a bigger problem at hand and capturing hussein meant little except to the iraqi people. While they may have celebrated the capture its obvious that they still have an issue with US occupation. I say its piss poor planning on the DoD and white house side of it and thats why they seem unhappy with us.

That's correct, perhaps the biggest piece of the pie has been removed and eliminated a huge threat. Of course other threats will exist and maybe even a few new ones will open up, does that mean we shouldn't have removed the biggest one of all?

The "piss poor planning" of the Department of Defense just removed a severe threat. You bring them down all you like, I'm too busy congratulating them.

are the only articles you've read concern the capture of hussein? Did you read the article about iraqi army desertions because of pay? just how much are you keeping up with? are you only interested in how things affect the US then?

You ave serious comprehension issues. I made it very clear that things still need improvement, but it's obviously not going to happen overnight. Strides have been being made and they now have the opportunity to make life better in Iraq than it has ever been for them before.

While you may think its dumb to bitch in less than 24 hours you don't have the luxury of experiencing life in their shoes. Calling them naive based on their perceptions of what life should be like after hussein and its not happening is pure speculation and bad judgement on your part. You have no clue how they are living over there, and if you did you wouldn't be making that rush to judgement.

It's NOT speculation, to expect all the regions problems to be completely fixed immediately with Saddam's removal WOULD be naive. THEM bitching is their right and they want more. They will soon see progress being made and eventually things will settle down. You have no interest in improvement in Iraq other than the bitching you get to do over what you see as lack of progress thus far. I also have just as much of a clue how things are over there as you do, yet you seem to think you can immediately rush to judgement and declare that the nation as a whole is still unhappy with the US efforts. Kinda hypocritical if you ask me.

I'd define plenty as in about 1/3rd, but don't take my word for it, im only a liberal. I think its fair to say that blinders might be required issue for those that refuse to see the bad side of bush policies.

You are correct, I won't be taking your word for it. YOU made the statement, now YOU back it up. I want clear proof that 1/3 or more of republicans are unhappy with the presidents policies, which you still failed to specify. I'll be waiting anxiously for your proof.

when the country, and the world, sees that we wasted our time, effort, and money on a failed 'nation building' exercise to impose freedom on a nation then maybe you'll accept the fact that forced independence will not work.

Only someone with serious issues would call protecting hundreds of thousands of lives a "waste of time". Removing Saddam as a threat was a waste of time. Exposing the mass murders he participated in was a waste of time. Fighting off terrorists in Iraq was a waste of time. Affording the citizens of Iraq freedom they have never seen before was a waste of time. Get real!

 

[jon_forward]

I would like to add one thing that seems to be overlooked or just my funny slant on things but...as for the WMD that suppose-edly we cant find..the WMD as far as I am concerned is saddam himself and we got his ass rotten in a cell!!! make that 2 things....on the pisspoor planning by the DoD, fighting a war is like loving a woman...you never know whats going to happen from one minute to the next.!!!!!!! IMHO

 

[jon_forward]

and good luck on your interview!!