This is the America Chimpy and Co. want...

[Bullypulpit]

<blockquote>A draft Bush administration plan for special military courts seeks to expand the reach and authority of such "commissions" to include trials, for the first time, of people who are not members of al-Qaeda or the Taliban and are not directly involved in acts of international terrorism, according to officials familiar with the proposal.

The plan, which would replace a military trial system ruled illegal by the Supreme Court in June, would also allow the secretary of defense to add crimes at will to those under the military court's jurisdiction. The two provisions would be likely to put more individuals than previously expected before military juries, officials and independent experts said. -<a href=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101334_pf.html>The Washington Post</a></blockquote>

This pernicious bit of legislation would permit trial in absentia, admission of heresay evidence and evidence obtained by coercion. Defendants would not be allowed to confront their accusers, due process would be severely limited.

The kicker here is that Rummy would be able to "...add crimes at will...". This is particularly ominous in light of the demonstrated willingness of this administration to ignore the Constitutional rights of US citizens and throw <i>habeas corpus</i> under the bus. Crimes committed by people not affiliated with Al Qaeda or the Taliban, nor even directly involved in international terrorism covers alot of ground, particularly given the very loose definition of terrorism contained in th PATRIOT Act.

Given the authoritarian bent of Chimpy and his administration, it would not surprise me in the least for them use this legislation, if passed, against US citizens, particularly those who are opposed to the administration's disasterous policies in Iraq and elsewhere. The Republic is on life-support now. Passage of this legislation would pull the plug. Good-bye America...Hello Amerika...

 

[Bullypulpit]

Hmmmm...Silence. Apparently even the most fervent supporter of Chimpy McPresident can find a way to get behind this.

 

[Avatar4321]

Bully, this is just the natural response to the poor decision in Hamdan. What exactly do you expect?

 

[OCA]

Hmmmm...Silence. Apparently even the most fervent supporter of Chimpy McPresident can find a way to get behind this.

My guess Bully is that people are probably doing a little research on this on their own because its impossible to debate things with you the way you spin them so wildly.

 

[theHawk]

Good, hope he adds being Liberal as a crime to that list.

 

[Avatar4321]

Good, hope he adds being Liberal as a crime to that list.

I dont. because they the liberals might actually have a legitimate claim against him. Last think they need is soemthing to legitimize their idealogy and get them elected.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Given the quality of replies so far, I seem to be correct in my assertion.

 

[OCA]

Given the quality of replies so far, I seem to be correct in my assertion.

Lol Bully your jokes always brighten my day, as if you had made a point in the original post. Like I said we'll review the case so we can decipher between the truth and your spin.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Lol Bully your jokes always brighten my day, as if you had made a point in the original post. Like I said we'll review the case so we can decipher between the truth and your spin.

No spin...Just call 'em as I see 'em.

 

[red states rule]

This is from the Al Qaeda training manual. Sounds like the DNC talking points

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/network/alqaeda/manual.html

IF AN INDICTMENT IS ISSUED AND THE TRIAL BEGINS, THE BROTHER HAS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE FOLLOWING:

At the beginning of the trial, once more the brothers must insist on proving that torture was inflicted on them by State Security [investigators] before the judge.
Complain [to the court] of mistreatment while in prison.
Make arrangements for the brother's defense with the attorney, whether he was retained by the brother 's family or court-appointed.
The brother has to do his best to know the names of the state security officers, who participated in his torture and mention their names to the judge. [These names may be obtained from brothers who had to deal with those officers in previous cases.]
Some brothers may tell and may be lured by the state security investigators to testify against the brothers [i.e. affirmation witness], either by not keeping them together in the same prison during the trials, or by letting them talk to the media. In this case, they have to be treated gently, and should be offered good advice, good treatment, and pray that God may guide them.
During the trial, the court has to be notified of any mistreatment of the brothers inside the prison.
It is possible to resort to a hunger strike, but it is a tactic that can either succeed or fail.
Take advantage of visits to communicate with brothers outside prison and exchange information that may be helpful to them in their work outside prison [according to what occurred during the investigations]. The importance of mastering the art of hiding messages is self evident here.
- When the brothers are transported from and to the prison [on their way to the court] they should shout Islamic slogans out loud from inside the prison cars to impress upon the people and their family the need to support Islam.
- Inside the prison, the brother should not accept any work that may belittle or demean him or his brothers, such as the cleaning of the prison bathrooms or hallways.
- The brothers should create an Islamic program for themselves inside the prison, as well as recreational and educational ones, etc.
- The brother in prison should be a role model in selflessness. Brothers should also pay attention to each others needs and should help each other and unite vis a vis the prison officers.
- The brothers must take advantage of their presence in prison for obeying and worshiping [God] and memorizing the Qora'an, etc. This is in addition to all guidelines and procedures that were contained in the lesson on interrogation and investigation. Lastly, each of us has to understand that we don't achieve victory against our enemies through these actions and security procedures. Rather, victory is achieved by obeying Almighty and Glorious God and because of their many sins. Every brother has to be careful so as not to commit sins and everyone of us has to do his best in obeying Almighty God, Who said in his Holy Book: "We will, without doubt. help Our messengers and those who believe (both) in this world's life and the one Day when the Witnesses will stand forth." May God guide us.

 

[Bullypulpit]

This is from the Al Qaeda training manual. Sounds like the DNC talking points

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/network/alqaeda/manual.html

IF AN INDICTMENT IS ISSUED AND THE TRIAL BEGINS, THE BROTHER HAS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE FOLLOWING:

At the beginning of the trial, once more the brothers must insist on proving that torture was inflicted on them by State Security [investigators] before the judge.
Complain [to the court] of mistreatment while in prison.
Make arrangements for the brother's defense with the attorney, whether he was retained by the brother 's family or court-appointed.
The brother has to do his best to know the names of the state security officers, who participated in his torture and mention their names to the judge. [These names may be obtained from brothers who had to deal with those officers in previous cases.]
Some brothers may tell and may be lured by the state security investigators to testify against the brothers [i.e. affirmation witness], either by not keeping them together in the same prison during the trials, or by letting them talk to the media. In this case, they have to be treated gently, and should be offered good advice, good treatment, and pray that God may guide them.
During the trial, the court has to be notified of any mistreatment of the brothers inside the prison.
It is possible to resort to a hunger strike, but it is a tactic that can either succeed or fail.
Take advantage of visits to communicate with brothers outside prison and exchange information that may be helpful to them in their work outside prison [according to what occurred during the investigations]. The importance of mastering the art of hiding messages is self evident here.
- When the brothers are transported from and to the prison [on their way to the court] they should shout Islamic slogans out loud from inside the prison cars to impress upon the people and their family the need to support Islam.
- Inside the prison, the brother should not accept any work that may belittle or demean him or his brothers, such as the cleaning of the prison bathrooms or hallways.
- The brothers should create an Islamic program for themselves inside the prison, as well as recreational and educational ones, etc.
- The brother in prison should be a role model in selflessness. Brothers should also pay attention to each others needs and should help each other and unite vis a vis the prison officers.
- The brothers must take advantage of their presence in prison for obeying and worshiping [God] and memorizing the Qora'an, etc. This is in addition to all guidelines and procedures that were contained in the lesson on interrogation and investigation. Lastly, each of us has to understand that we don't achieve victory against our enemies through these actions and security procedures. Rather, victory is achieved by obeying Almighty and Glorious God and because of their many sins. Every brother has to be careful so as not to commit sins and everyone of us has to do his best in obeying Almighty God, Who said in his Holy Book: "We will, without doubt. help Our messengers and those who believe (both) in this world's life and the one Day when the Witnesses will stand forth." May God guide us.

So, what's your point? If America is to regain the moral high ground, her leaders MUST adhere to the ideals that this nation was founded upon...Justice must be their primary concern...Due process must be observed whether its under the UCMJ or Civil Law.

The point I was making however, and you missed entirely, was the threat this legislation would pose to American citizens. Particularly the part about Rummy being able to add crimes "at will" the the list of offenses that could fall under the auspices of this star-chamber and the threat it poses to American citizens. Especially those who are opposed to administration policy.

 

[theHawk]

No spin...Just call 'em as I see 'em.

LOL, Bully you are so full of shit.

Example:

This is particularly ominous in light of the demonstrated willingness of this administration to ignore the Constitutional rights of US citizens and throw habeas corpus under the bus.

Here you are trying to spin this to look like the consititutional rights of US citizens are being violated. When this has to do with detainees being held at Gitmo, not US citizens.
Personally I could give a bucket of piss if some terrorist in gitmo isn't getting his 'due process', because we don't owe him any.
As it stands now we can hold them indefinately as long as we are at war. As it should be, imo. But I understand libs like yourself want to see this criminals and terrorists set free so they can get back to killing our soldiers.

 

[red states rule]

The point is, the terrorists are using their talking point and the left is backing them up.

The terrorists tried before military commissions are terrorists. If a US citizen joins the terrorists he/she gives up their Comstitutional protections

 

[theHawk]

The point I was making however, and you missed entirely, was the threat this legislation would pose to American citizens.

LOL, Oh I see. So its a scare tactic. We're all supposed to be afraid of the "threat" this might pose to American citizens at a later time. This piece of legislation doesn't effect Americans.
Now do you understand why we didn't give a shit when you posted this thread?

 

[Bullypulpit]

LOL, Bully you are so full of shit.

Example:

Here you are trying to spin this to look like the consititutional rights of US citizens are being violated. When this has to do with detainees being held at Gitmo, not US citizens.
Personally I could give a bucket of piss if some terrorist in gitmo isn't getting his 'due process', because we don't owe him any.
As it stands now we can hold them indefinately as long as we are at war. As it should be, imo. But I understand libs like yourself want to see this criminals and terrorists set free so they can get back to killing our soldiers.

Then you haven't been paying attention. But no surprise that...The Republican noise machine deafens you to the voice of reason...Plays on your fears...Makes you a willing dupe to Administration attempts to undermine the Constitution and the rule of law.

And as far as "killing our soldiers' goes, I have one thing to say: "Fuck you." I have family in the National Guard and on active duty that have been to Iraq and are going to Iraq. I've got skin in this game. Any one who capped them I would gladly skin alive and then pour salt on them. So kindly fuck off and die, miserable little punk.

 

[red states rule]

Do your military friends know you are a useful idiot to those who want to kill them?

 

[CSM]

Given the quality of replies so far, I seem to be correct in my assertion.

Naw, I figure I'll wait until the actual legislation comes up instead of commenting on a draft (which we haven't seen) or some commentator's opinion. No need to comment on the usual "Bully rant"...it's always the same and been commented on many times.

 

[Bullypulpit]

The point is, the terrorists are using their talking point and the left is backing them up.

The terrorists tried before military commissions are terrorists. If a US citizen joins the terrorists he/she gives up their Comstitutional protections

Read carefully...

<blockquote>A draft Bush administration plan for special military courts seeks to expand the reach and authority of such "commissions" to include trials, for the first time, of people who are not members of al-Qaeda or the Taliban and are not directly involved in acts of international terrorism...</blockquote>

Given how broadly defined terrorism is under PATRIOT II, it could be used against US citizens. And given the disdain of the Administration and the rule of law, they would not hesitate to do so.

 

[CSM]

So, what's your point? If America is to regain the moral high ground, her leaders MUST adhere to the ideals that this nation was founded upon...Justice must be their primary concern...Due process must be observed whether its under the UCMJ or Civil Law.

The point I was making however, and you missed entirely, was the threat this legislation would pose to American citizens. Particularly the part about Rummy being able to add crimes "at will" the the list of offenses that could fall under the auspices of this star-chamber and the threat it poses to American citizens. Especially those who are opposed to administration policy.

Nice try but that is NOT what the talking head said nor does it apply necessarily to American citizens:

"..... add crimes at will to those under the military court's jurisdiction.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Do your military friends know you are a useful idiot to those who want to kill them?

Given that you are a useless idiot, I won't take offense at your pointless and utterly false comment. It's simply not proper to take umbrage at the mentally retarded, as they aren't responsible for their actions.