They said it: Israeli leaders on Palestine

[georgephillip]

I want to make absolutely clear that I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, and I support the right of Israeli people to live in peace.

I just think that we should all be as honest about that process of settlement as Israeli's leaders are here.

If it's true there are nearly equal numbers of Jews and non-Jews living between the River and the sea today, how can a Jewish state that requires a Jewish majority for its survival exist as a democracy?

 

[Hoffstra]

Israel has also admitted to destroying hundreds of Mosques and building settlements on stolen land.

 

[Lipush]

There is no "stolen land". There is "released land".

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Israel has also admitted to destroying hundreds of Mosques and building settlements on stolen land.

Hundreds of mosques destroyed by Israel? Massive lie!!

 

[toastman]

Israel has also admitted to destroying hundreds of Mosques and building settlements on stolen land.

Thanks for providing a link

 

[georgephillip]

There is no "stolen land". There is "released land".

"In the late 1800s a small, fanatic movement called 'political Zionism' began in Europe.

"Its goal was to create a Jewish state somewhere in the world.

"Its leaders settled on the ancient and long-inhabited land of Palestine for the location of this state.1

"Palestine's population at this time was approximately ninety-six percent non-Jewish (primarily Muslim and Christian)"

Do you agree?

 

[toastman]

There is no "stolen land". There is "released land".

"In the late 1800s a small, fanatic movement called 'political Zionism' began in Europe.

"Its goal was to create a Jewish state somewhere in the world.

"Its leaders settled on the ancient and long-inhabited land of Palestine for the location of this state.1

"Palestine's population at this time was approximately ninety-six percent non-Jewish (primarily Muslim and Christian)"

Do you agree?

I agree that you have a serious obsession with altering the definition of Zionism

 

[Roudy]

I want to make absolutely clear that I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, and I support the right of Israeli people to live in peace.

I just think that we should all be as honest about that process of settlement as Israeli's leaders are here.

Yeah right.

These quotes have all been proven of context in order to change their meaning, or they are outright frauds.

 

[georgephillip]

There is no "stolen land". There is "released land".

"In the late 1800s a small, fanatic movement called 'political Zionism' began in Europe.

"Its goal was to create a Jewish state somewhere in the world.

"Its leaders settled on the ancient and long-inhabited land of Palestine for the location of this state.1

"Palestine's population at this time was approximately ninety-six percent non-Jewish (primarily Muslim and Christian)"

Do you agree?

I agree that you have a serious obsession with altering the definition of Zionism

Care to provide your definition of Zionism?

 

[Hoffstra]

Care to provide your definition of Zionism?

historical Zionism= supporting the creation of a Jewish nation-state in Palestine.

modern Zionism= supporting Israel's right to exist as a democracy and a Jewish nation-state.

its pretty simple.

 

[Hoffstra]

There is no "stolen land". There is "released land".

Interesting, as the Israel Civil Administration has accused settlements of stealing land.

haaretz.com/news/court-case-reveals-how-settlers-illegally-grab-west-bank-lands-1.241487

"The land takeover - which the Civil Administration calls "theft" - has occured in an orderly manner, without any official authorization."

 

[abu afak]

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

Ahh, more "Zionist quotes"
The foremost weapon of anti-Israel clowns and seen all over the net on Arab/Palestinian/HATE websites.
I always suspect these are problematic. On one Arab message board I debunked the first 4 outa 10. That was enough/didn't bother with the rest.
The First:

CAMERA: Zionist Misquote: Moshe Dayan on Dispossessing Arabs in the Land of Israel

Zionist Misquote: Moshe Dayan on Dispossessing Arabs in the Land of Israel

The following is an example of statements misquoted, taken out of context or otherwise manipulated to present a distorted view of Zionist intentions and actions. The misquotes are found in op-eds in campus newpapers and mainstream press as well as on anti-Israel websites.

MISQUOTE:

Example 1 (as quoted in Riverdale Press, January 4, 2001):

We came to this country, which was already populated by Arabs, and we are establishing a Jewish state. Jewish villages were built in the place of the Arab villages. You don't even know the names of the Arab villages, because those geography books no longer exist. Not only the books do not exist, the Arab villages are not there either -- there is not one place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population. ( Moshe Dayan, as quoted in Ha'aretz 1978)

Example 2 (as quoted by Ralph Schoenman)

We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs, and we are building here a Hebrew, Jewish state. Instead of Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You do not even know the names of these villages and I do not blame you, because these geography books no longer exist. Not only the books, but also the villages do not exist. Nahalal was established in place of Mahalul, Gevat in place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Hanifas and Kafr Yehoushua in the place of Tel Shamam. There is not a single settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab village. (The Hidden History of Zionism, Veritas Press 1988, p. 41. Also available online here.)

ACTUAL QUOTE AND CONTEXT:

The quote is taken from an address Dayan gave to Technion University students on March 19, 1969. A transcript of the speech appeared in Ha'aretz on April 4, 1969.

In answer to a student's question suggesting that Israel adopt a policy of punishing Arabs who commit crimes in the West Bank by deportation to Jordan, Dayan answers that he is vehemently opposed to this idea, insisting that the answer to the longstanding Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to live together with Arab neighbors. He goes on to say:

We came to a region of land that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In a considerable number of places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don't even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don't blame you, because those geography books aren't around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren't around. Nahalal was established in the place of Mahalul, and Gvat was established in the place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Huneifis and Kfar Yehoshua in the place of Tel Shaman. There isn't any place that was established in an area where there had not at one time been an Arab settlement.​

Dayan's conclusion was that the solution to the Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to Coexist with them.

In the misquote, the key phrase "we purchased the land from Arabs" is omitted, and thus Dayan's meaning is reversed. Dayan was Not saying that Arabs were dispossessed. On the contrary, he was indicating that though Arabs sold the land of their own free will, given their presence in the region, the Israeli goal is to live Peacefully together With them.
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[Saigon]

I want to make absolutely clear that I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, and I support the right of Israeli people to live in peace.

I just think that we should all be as honest about that process of settlement as Israeli's leaders are here.

Yeah right.

These quotes have all been proven of context in order to change their meaning, or they are outright frauds.

The sources are provided, so that you can check the context if you wish.

A more intelligent response would be to accept that many Israeli leaders have been perfectly aware of what Palestinian land was being conquered, but felt they had an urgent need to conquer it and establish Israel.

I agree with them.

There is simply no benefit for Israel in lying about history, and most Israeli politicians realise that. Many of our posters here do not realise it.

 

[Roudy]

I want to make absolutely clear that I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, and I support the right of Israeli people to live in peace.

I just think that we should all be as honest about that process of settlement as Israeli's leaders are here.

Yeah right.

These quotes have all been proven of context in order to change their meaning, or they are outright frauds.

The sources are provided, so that you can check the context if you wish.

A more intelligent response would be to accept that many Israeli leaders have been perfectly aware of what Palestinian land was being conquered, but felt they had an urgent need to conquer it and establish Israel.

I agree with them.

There is simply no benefit for Israel in lying about history, and most Israeli politicians realise that. Many of our posters here do not realise it.

As Abu Afak indicated in the previous post here http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...raeli-leaders-on-palestine-3.html#post7719802 those quotes are fraudulent. Therefore the assumptions and additional "commentary" can be considered fraudulent as well.

 

[Roudy]

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

Ahh, more "Zionist quotes"
The foremost weapon of anti-Israel clowns and seen all over the net on Arab/Palestinian/HATE websites.
I always suspect these are problematic. On one Arab message board I debunked the first 4 outa 10. That was enough/didn't bother with the rest.
The First:

CAMERA: Zionist Misquote: Moshe Dayan on Dispossessing Arabs in the Land of Israel

Zionist Misquote: Moshe Dayan on Dispossessing Arabs in the Land of Israel

The following is an example of statements misquoted, taken out of context or otherwise manipulated to present a distorted view of Zionist intentions and actions. The misquotes are found in op-eds in campus newpapers and mainstream press as well as on anti-Israel websites.

MISQUOTE:

Example 1 (as quoted in Riverdale Press, January 4, 2001):

We came to this country, which was already populated by Arabs, and we are establishing a Jewish state. Jewish villages were built in the place of the Arab villages. You don't even know the names of the Arab villages, because those geography books no longer exist. Not only the books do not exist, the Arab villages are not there either -- there is not one place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population. ( Moshe Dayan, as quoted in Ha'aretz 1978)

Example 2 (as quoted by Ralph Schoenman)

We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs, and we are building here a Hebrew, Jewish state. Instead of Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You do not even know the names of these villages and I do not blame you, because these geography books no longer exist. Not only the books, but also the villages do not exist. Nahalal was established in place of Mahalul, Gevat in place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Hanifas and Kafr Yehoushua in the place of Tel Shamam. There is not a single settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab village. (The Hidden History of Zionism, Veritas Press 1988, p. 41. Also available online here.)

ACTUAL QUOTE AND CONTEXT:

The quote is taken from an address Dayan gave to Technion University students on March 19, 1969. A transcript of the speech appeared in Ha'aretz on April 4, 1969.

In answer to a student's question suggesting that Israel adopt a policy of punishing Arabs who commit crimes in the West Bank by deportation to Jordan, Dayan answers that he is vehemently opposed to this idea, insisting that the answer to the longstanding Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to live together with Arab neighbors. He goes on to say:

We came to a region of land that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In a considerable number of places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don't even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don't blame you, because those geography books aren't around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren't around. Nahalal was established in the place of Mahalul, and Gvat was established in the place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Huneifis and Kfar Yehoshua in the place of Tel Shaman. There isn't any place that was established in an area where there had not at one time been an Arab settlement.​

Dayan's conclusion was that the solution to the Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to Coexist with them.

In the misquote, the key phrase "we purchased the land from Arabs" is omitted, and thus Dayan's meaning is reversed. Dayan was not saying that Arabs were dispossessed. On the contrary, he was indicating that though Arabs sold the land of their own free will, given their presence in the region, the Israeli goal is to live Peacefully together With them.
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And they wonder why Israel is considering hiring people to counter all the lies and false propaganda being told about it in the Internet.

 

[Saigon]

As Abu Afak indicated in the previous post here http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...raeli-leaders-on-palestine-3.html#post7719802 those quotes are fraudulent. Therefore the assumptions and additional "commentary" can be considered fraudulent as well.

Ha! I don't think so, somehow. Abu Afak questions ONE quote out of twelve....and even then only suggests the phrase about buying the land was removed.

Even allowing for the odd variation in translation, the basis for the quotes seems to be quite solid.

Certainly there are quotes from many Israeli heads of state that confirm the need for a Palestinian state where you can go and watch the video, if you wish.

There are dozens of quotes from people like Ben Gurion who say very similar things to those quotes appearing here, and they appear in his own book.

The issue here is one of historical fact and honesty - something that many Israeli politicians seem comfortable with, while posters here prefer outright lies and distortions.

Which tactic do you think is best for Israel?

 

[Saigon]

Here is one very clear example:

David Ben Gurion said

"Everybody sees a difficulty in the question of relations between Arabs and Jews. But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question. No solution! There is a gulf, and nothing can bridge it… We, as a nation, want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs. "

Written statement (June 1919), as quoted in Time magazine (24 July 2006)


"I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.
"I'll be seventy years old soon. Well, Nahum, if you asked me whether I shall die and be buried in a Jewish State I would tell you Yes; in ten years, fifteen years, I believe there will still be a Jewish State. But ask me whether my son Amos, who will be fifty at the end of this year, has a chance of dying and being buried in a Jewish State, and I would answer: fifty-fifty."
"But how can you sleep with that prospect in mind and be Prime Minister of Israel too?" I responded.
"Who says I sleep?" was Ben-Gurion's simple reply.

As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A Personal Memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann, as translated by Steve Cox, pp 99-100 ISBN 0-448-15166-9



Why do you ignore Israeli's own president?

 

[Roudy]

Misquotes, mistranslations and outright lies about Israel. What else is new?

CAMERA: Journal of Palestine Studies Compounds its Ben-Gurion Error

In November 2011, CAMERA informed editors at the Journal of Palestine Studies (JPS) of a falsified quote, attributed to Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion, that was published in its pages. After investigating the matter, the journal went through the motions of clearing the record. Unfortunately its correction, while acknowledging that mistakes were made, introduced additional, serious inaccuracies that severely misinform readers.

According to JPS, the author of the article that relayed the hoax quote, Israeli historian Ilan Pappé, "declined to respond himself" to the questions about his falsification. Nonetheless, the journal's editors defended "the overall accuracy" of Pappé's piece, arguing that another purported statement by Ben-Gurion showed the author was essentially correct.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/fake_zionist_quotes.htm
People put great store in quotes and purported quotes, but these are often faked.

Fake Zionist Quotes
Scattered around the Web are numerous pages of "Zionist Quotes" that show Zionism as an evil, racist conspiracy. Many of the quotes are forgeries, hoaxes and inventions. The quotes were fabricated to discredit Israel, Zionism or Jews. not to inform or enlighten anyone. The intent of the doctored quotes may be to "prove" that "Zionism is Racism." and that 'Zionists' planned the transfer of Arabs from Palestine from the start and to demonize Israeli, Zionists and Jews.

How Fake Quotes are Made
Fake quotes are manufactured in a number of ways:

Presenting fiction as fact - A satirical and fictional "interview" with an Israeli general was presented as a real interview of Ariel Sharon supposedly don by Amos Oz.

Confabulation - According to Benny Morris, Ben Gurion wrote to his son that "we must expel the Arabs." These words could not be found in the Hebrew text of his letters, but apparently in an English version.

Quoting out of context - A portion of a speech or letter meant ironically or with an obviously innocent intent is quoted as standalone prose. For example, before the establishment of the state of Israel, David Ben Gurion gave a speech noting that Arabs would be nearly a majority in the new state unless the Zionists acted. Ben Gurion explained envisioned massive Jewish immigration. That part of his remarks is omitted so that the unsuspecting reader thinks that Ben Gurion was proposing "ethnic cleansing."

Omitting key phrases - For example the phrase "We bought the lands from the Arabs" was omitted from a Moshe Dayan quote to make it seem like he admitted that Zionists had stolen all the land.

How to Spot Fake Quotes
Sometimes fake quotes can be spotted because the language is particularly obnoxious, or because what are supposedly Hebrew names or place names have been distorted by someone who does not know the language. An Israeli statesman would not be likely to use racist or violent language in public and no Israeli would have a name like "Ouze." "Quotes" of that type were concocted for a credulous Arab-speaking audience ad translated.

 

[Saigon]

Roudy -

Are you suggesting that Ben Gurion's own book is faked?

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

This is the second thread you have started which debunks quotes. I debunked a couple in my post # 14 and others people have too. You started a thread just like this last last May and now this one. What a drag when you can't get your own way, Saigon?