The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities...

[ChrisL]

Also, Israel has to be concerned with even the children of Palestine. How could you possibly live side by side with people like this???

Child suicide bombers in the Israeli Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, children were used as "messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians" during the al-Aqsa Intifada. Fatah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have all been implicated in involving children in this way. The issue was brought to world attention after a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint.[6] The youngest Palestinian suicide bomber who blew himself up was Issa Bdeir, a 16-year-old high school student from the village of Al Doha. He blew himself up in a park in Rishon LeZion, killing a teenage boy and an elderly man.

According to the Israel Defense Forces, 29 suicide attacks were carried out by youth under the age of 18 in 2000–2003. From May 2001, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of 18, and more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted (three in 2004).

Ukraine and Russia live side by side.
Georgia and Russia live side by side.
East and West Germany lived side by side.
Ireland and Northern Ireland live side by side.
Bosnia and Serbia live side by side despite the genocide.

No one suggested ethnic cleansing to make it more tolerable.

Are you SERIOUS? Ukraine and Russia, Georgia and Russia? They are fighting still. Egads, I've figured it out. You are willfully blind and deaf.

 

[ChrisL]

I'm pretty sure that is what Israel has tried to do, and they do have some palestinians in their midst who do NOT want anything to do with the "palestinian" state. It is not Israel's fault that they are surrounded by intolerant bigots.

That's why the only workable solution is a 2-state solution where both sides must give up some of their ambitions in order to secure peace and security.

Only problem is the Palestinians are refusing to give anything up and just keep demanding more pre conditions

Both sides are stuck in that same rut.

Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

Honestly, what would YOU do in Israel's situation? They HAVE to protect their people, and THOSE people keep trying to kill Israeli citizens. Are you suggesting that Israel should risk it's citizens lives?

EVERY time Israel has given them an inch, they gone right back to the bombings, suicide attacks, kidnapping and torture, and murder, etc.

The point is - Israel can't claim to have no "pre-conditions" for peace and accuse the Palestinians of trying to block the peace process with "pre-conditions". It's a blatant lie.

What are Israel's conditions? Don't lob bombs at us?

 

[ChrisL]

Russia Ukraine Conflict

T

 

[ChrisL]

2008 Russo-Georgian diplomatic crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Coyote]

The UK held the trump card many times over in Northern Ireland, but the Protestants had to compromise and eventually, the Catholics will takeover through demographics. Best that the Jews make a deal now that they are at the apex of their power and relative population difference.

I think given what is occurring in the ME, it's in Israel's (and the Palestinian's) best interest to make a deal. It's not necessarily demographics but the likely chance that the Israel, and it's Arab neighbors will need to work together to deal with ISIS, Iraq, Syria and Libya all of which are in a state of chaos. Settling the Palestinian issue now, while Hamas has lost a lot of support and popularity would be beneficial for it. No one is going to support massive population transfers to another country though.

" According to a new poll of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh would trounce Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas were a two-man election to be held today. That puts Hamas back in pole position for the first time since 2006. The group’s TV station, Al Aqsa, has become the No. 1 channel watched by Palestinians – by a margin of 15 percentage points. And 70 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank say they want to adopt Hamas’s armed approach. "

After Gaza war Hamas on a high but for how long video - CSMonitor.com

This 9/14/2014 poll concludes: Palestinian Public Opinion Poll No -53 PCPSR

This post-war poll was conducted one month after the end of the war in the Gaza Strip. This report highlights important changes in public perception compared to the findings we obtained in our previous poll which was conducted a month ago, immediately after the war end. Findings show a drop in satisfaction with the achievements of the war, probably due to the continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip. A drop was also found in the percentage of those who believed Hamas won the war, in the percentage of opposition to dissolving armed groups in the Gaza Strip, and in the popularity of Hamas and Ismail Haniyeh. Findings also show a rise in the popularity of Abbas and Fatah. Support for a third armed intifada went down in this poll as support for negotiations increased and a majority supported the two-state solution.

Despite the drop in support for the Islamists, Hamas and Haniyeh remain more popular than Fatah and Abbas. Moreover, a majority still supports launching rockets against Israel if the siege and the blockade are not ended. Furthermore, satisfaction with Abbas remains low. Finally, two thirds of the public oppose merging Hamas’ al Qassam Brigades into the Palestinian National Security Forces.

Findings also show significant drop in the level of optimism regarding the chances for a successful implementation of the reconciliation agreement and indicate continued drop in the level of satisfaction with the performance of the reconciliation government. Indeed, a majority supports replacing the reconciliation government with a national unity government made up of factional leaders and politicians. Despite all that, a majority wants the reconciliation government to control crossings with Egypt and Israel and wants it to have control over Gaza’s public sector including those in the security services.​

IMO, Israel has done nothing to help strengthen Abbas' position, in fact it seems to undermine it at every opportunity which makes me wonder if peace and/or a two state solution is it's true desire.

Israel is not serious about peace, she created the Gaza offensive as a diversion from the Peace Talks demanded by the World and lackey America...

She will never go back to the 67 armistice line...Anyone who accepts less on Jerusalem will end up murdered by their own. people like Sadat and Rabin.

The Ethnic Cleansers Rule...

I doubt it will come to large scale ethnic cleansing. The demographics alone make it impossible to to do and the international community would never support it, the political fall out would be horrendous for Israel. It's disheartening to see so many people supporting ethnic cleansing though, something that I doubt they would support in any other situation.

How many Palestinians actually live in the West Bank - Diplomacy Defense Israel News Haaretz

There are approx 2.6 - 2.7 million Arab Palestinians in the West Bank...and what...400,000 Jewish settlers? Only 17% of the population is Jewish. That doesn't include the 1.7 or so million in Gaza.

 

[Coyote]

2008 Russo-Georgian diplomatic crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Yes. And they are living side by side. Has anyone suggested ethnic cleansing?

 

[ChrisL]

2008 Russo-Georgian diplomatic crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Yes. And they are living side by side. Has anyone suggested ethnic cleansing?

That's because neither side on the Ukraine/Russia conflict are savages. They are educated people who can have rational conversation, unlike the Palestinians. Can't trust them, can't reason with them. It's like trying to reason with a drunk person basically. Can't be done.

 

[montelatici]

2008 Russo-Georgian diplomatic crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Yes. And they are living side by side. Has anyone suggested ethnic cleansing?

That's because neither side on the Ukraine/Russia conflict are savages. They are educated people who can have rational conversation, unlike the Palestinians. Can't trust them, can't reason with them. It's like trying to reason with a drunk person basically. Can't be done.

So, ethnic cleansing is your solution. Why not genocide?

 

[aris2chat]

That is not the only source. Multiple, multiple sources confirm the same data. I've posted at LEAST 3 other links here that give the same data. There was NO Palestine. It is a made-up place. It did not exist before the creation of Israel. It WAS a mostly uninhabitable territory owned by Arab kings which was taken over by the British and mandated to become half a Jewish state and half an Arab state by the UN. The Arabs would not accept that because of their BIGOTRY, and they tried to attack the Israelis, but the Israelis fought back and won, AND they won the land that you call "palestine."

Wrong. There has long been a Palestine - it's a very old designation. It may not have been a "nation" but it was an identifiable geographic area.

Again - as supported by links to historical census data from the Ottoman's and Mandate periods it was not mostly uninhabited. It had a definate permanent population.

Why do you keep pretending that the people who inhabited the region didn't exist? That they have no rights to live where they've been living?

The Mandate's 1922 Census: 1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

Even if that were true, it still doesn't change the fact that it was a territory owned and controlled not by anyone known as a "palestinian," and that it is made up. They were Arabs, and as you link states the "military" and those of foreign nationality are more than likely not permanent residents.

The land was owned by Arab kings and then by the British. The Jewish people did not steal any land from anyone. None of your links suggest that anyone is more entitled to this land than the people who it was given to, or who won over some territory during time of war.

It's owned by the indiginous people living there that have lived there and that now call themselves Palestinians. They didn't just appear out of nowhere.

I'm not claiming entitlement of one group over another that broadly. What I'm saying is that they have lived there and their rights should not be disregarded and you can't just move whole populations out of an area because they are inconvenient to your political or nationalistic ambitions.

Even when territory is taken by war - the people usually go with it and are subject to new rulers. If Israel wants to keep WB and Gaza, then it can keep the people and gives them Israeli citizenship just like any other conquored country or it can ethnically cleanse the region and be comparable to Stalin who forceably moved ethnic minorities to Siberia and moved in ethnic Russians.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You did read that jews owned 10-20% of arable land, 40% was state owned and 40% was owned by the "church" and absentee landlords from other arab countries.
Bedouins had migration routes but did not own land.
The majority of land outside the towns and villages was not owned by "indigenous" arabs but rented, migrant workers, sharecropped or like feudal land worked by locals who had been in service to the owners for generations.
Much of the land was swamp, desert and rocky badlands.
Land owned by private individuals was allowed in the 19th century. Most of the locals did not wanted to be registered as owners to avoid military service. Even under the mandate they avoided registering land when offered to avoid conscription or paying taxes.
Jewish Armed Forces in the British Mandate
The 1834 arab revolt was over locals not being pressed into egyptian or ottoman military service or to pay the taxes.
Land ownership was divided into five different classifications. Private ownership was not heard of for the local outside of the towns and cities till the ottoman opened the area up to jews and wealthy muslims from elsewhere in the empire in the first hald of the 19th century. Till the end of the WWI most of the locals lived and thought only in terms of tribal or feudal terms. They were not free to be land owners.
Just because there was a sizable percentage of the population listed as muslim does not meant they were or could be land owners.
Even today many of the land rights in the region are based on the old ottoman or tribal systems.

But you have people living there now, in the West Bank, who have been there for along time - who some here are stating should categorically kicked off the land (ethnically cleansed), to another country so that region can be inhabited by others who seem to me to have no more right to it then they do.

and before Jordan occupied the west bank, there used to be jews living there for generations.

Nothing is simple about the situation

 

[aris2chat]

That is not the only source. Multiple, multiple sources confirm the same data. I've posted at LEAST 3 other links here that give the same data. There was NO Palestine. It is a made-up place. It did not exist before the creation of Israel. It WAS a mostly uninhabitable territory owned by Arab kings which was taken over by the British and mandated to become half a Jewish state and half an Arab state by the UN. The Arabs would not accept that because of their BIGOTRY, and they tried to attack the Israelis, but the Israelis fought back and won, AND they won the land that you call "palestine."

Wrong. There has long been a Palestine - it's a very old designation. It may not have been a "nation" but it was an identifiable geographic area.

Again - as supported by links to historical census data from the Ottoman's and Mandate periods it was not mostly uninhabited. It had a definate permanent population.

Why do you keep pretending that the people who inhabited the region didn't exist? That they have no rights to live where they've been living?

The Mandate's 1922 Census: 1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

Even if that were true, it still doesn't change the fact that it was a territory owned and controlled not by anyone known as a "palestinian," and that it is made up. They were Arabs, and as you link states the "military" and those of foreign nationality are more than likely not permanent residents.

The land was owned by Arab kings and then by the British. The Jewish people did not steal any land from anyone. None of your links suggest that anyone is more entitled to this land than the people who it was given to, or who won over some territory during time of war.

It's owned by the indiginous people living there that have lived there and that now call themselves Palestinians. They didn't just appear out of nowhere.

I'm not claiming entitlement of one group over another that broadly. What I'm saying is that they have lived there and their rights should not be disregarded and you can't just move whole populations out of an area because they are inconvenient to your political or nationalistic ambitions.

Even when territory is taken by war - the people usually go with it and are subject to new rulers. If Israel wants to keep WB and Gaza, then it can keep the people and gives them Israeli citizenship just like any other conquored country or it can ethnically cleanse the region and be comparable to Stalin who forceably moved ethnic minorities to Siberia and moved in ethnic Russians.

Actually they did mostly from the direction of Syria and Egypt on the promise of work.

I am claiming entitlement based on Customary International Law and international treaties that gave 77% of the land to the arab muslims and 23% to the Jews. What happened was the arabs then forcibly moved the Jews out of arab controlled territory against the Mandate rules because they were inconvenient to the arab nationalists ( neo Nazis ) political and nationalist ambitions.

Israel has already relinquished its occupation of gaza and handed control to the muslims living there. Part of the Oslo accords that the Palestinians demanded as a pre condition to peace talks. The west bank was mostly owned by Jews before the 1948 war and they were thrown of their property by the Palestinian muslims . The same Palestinian muslims that tried to throw the Jordanians of their land until they retaliated and shot 50,000 as an object lesson.
So are you now comparing the Palestinians to Stalin as they forced 500,000 Jews to leave their land and property and moved arab muslims into their homes.

That doesn't make sense. The only area where Jews held a majority - at least according to this 1898 figure, was Jeruselum.

Edited to add:
This also doesn't make any sense "as they forced 500,000 Jews to leave their land and property and moved arab muslims into their homes." When and where were 500,000 Jews forced from their homes?

You are aware there were no official census and the numbers are estimates. Many arabs avoided military service and taxes by not being counted.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

This is an essential point.

But you have people living there now, in the West Bank, who have been there for along time - who some here are stating should categorically kicked off the land (ethnically cleansed), to another country so that region can be inhabited by others who seem to me to have no more right to it then they do.

Both sides are stuck in that same rut.

Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

(COMMENT)

There is a very good argument, to be made on the part of the Arab Palestinian, relative to the Settlement Issue and the Oslo Accords.

But I'm not sure that anyone (in authority) on the Arab Palestinian side of the talks is actually interested in serious negotiations.

Who, actually, wants to sit down and talk about solutions?

Most Respectively,
R

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, et al,

This is an essential point.

But you have people living there now, in the West Bank, who have been there for along time - who some here are stating should categorically kicked off the land (ethnically cleansed), to another country so that region can be inhabited by others who seem to me to have no more right to it then they do.

Both sides are stuck in that same rut.

Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

(COMMENT)

There is a very good argument, to be made on the part of the Arab Palestinian, relative to the Settlement Issue and the Oslo Accords.

But I'm not sure that anyone (in authority) on the Arab Palestinian side of the talks is actually interested in serious negotiations.

Who, actually, wants to sit down and talk about solutions?

Most Respectively,
R

I don't think anyone does....on either side

 

[Coyote]

Wrong. There has long been a Palestine - it's a very old designation. It may not have been a "nation" but it was an identifiable geographic area.

Again - as supported by links to historical census data from the Ottoman's and Mandate periods it was not mostly uninhabited. It had a definate permanent population.

Why do you keep pretending that the people who inhabited the region didn't exist? That they have no rights to live where they've been living?

The Mandate's 1922 Census: 1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

Even if that were true, it still doesn't change the fact that it was a territory owned and controlled not by anyone known as a "palestinian," and that it is made up. They were Arabs, and as you link states the "military" and those of foreign nationality are more than likely not permanent residents.

The land was owned by Arab kings and then by the British. The Jewish people did not steal any land from anyone. None of your links suggest that anyone is more entitled to this land than the people who it was given to, or who won over some territory during time of war.

It's owned by the indiginous people living there that have lived there and that now call themselves Palestinians. They didn't just appear out of nowhere.

I'm not claiming entitlement of one group over another that broadly. What I'm saying is that they have lived there and their rights should not be disregarded and you can't just move whole populations out of an area because they are inconvenient to your political or nationalistic ambitions.

Even when territory is taken by war - the people usually go with it and are subject to new rulers. If Israel wants to keep WB and Gaza, then it can keep the people and gives them Israeli citizenship just like any other conquored country or it can ethnically cleanse the region and be comparable to Stalin who forceably moved ethnic minorities to Siberia and moved in ethnic Russians.

Actually they did mostly from the direction of Syria and Egypt on the promise of work.

I am claiming entitlement based on Customary International Law and international treaties that gave 77% of the land to the arab muslims and 23% to the Jews. What happened was the arabs then forcibly moved the Jews out of arab controlled territory against the Mandate rules because they were inconvenient to the arab nationalists ( neo Nazis ) political and nationalist ambitions.

Israel has already relinquished its occupation of gaza and handed control to the muslims living there. Part of the Oslo accords that the Palestinians demanded as a pre condition to peace talks. The west bank was mostly owned by Jews before the 1948 war and they were thrown of their property by the Palestinian muslims . The same Palestinian muslims that tried to throw the Jordanians of their land until they retaliated and shot 50,000 as an object lesson.
So are you now comparing the Palestinians to Stalin as they forced 500,000 Jews to leave their land and property and moved arab muslims into their homes.

That doesn't make sense. The only area where Jews held a majority - at least according to this 1898 figure, was Jeruselum.

Edited to add:
This also doesn't make any sense "as they forced 500,000 Jews to leave their land and property and moved arab muslims into their homes." When and where were 500,000 Jews forced from their homes?

You are aware there were no official census and the numbers are estimates. Many arabs avoided military service and taxes by not being counted.

I agree, they are estimates...so the arab population could have been higher?

Thing is - I don't see where Phoenal is getting his numbers?

 

[Coyote]

Wrong. There has long been a Palestine - it's a very old designation. It may not have been a "nation" but it was an identifiable geographic area.

Again - as supported by links to historical census data from the Ottoman's and Mandate periods it was not mostly uninhabited. It had a definate permanent population.

Why do you keep pretending that the people who inhabited the region didn't exist? That they have no rights to live where they've been living?

The Mandate's 1922 Census: 1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

Even if that were true, it still doesn't change the fact that it was a territory owned and controlled not by anyone known as a "palestinian," and that it is made up. They were Arabs, and as you link states the "military" and those of foreign nationality are more than likely not permanent residents.

The land was owned by Arab kings and then by the British. The Jewish people did not steal any land from anyone. None of your links suggest that anyone is more entitled to this land than the people who it was given to, or who won over some territory during time of war.

It's owned by the indiginous people living there that have lived there and that now call themselves Palestinians. They didn't just appear out of nowhere.

I'm not claiming entitlement of one group over another that broadly. What I'm saying is that they have lived there and their rights should not be disregarded and you can't just move whole populations out of an area because they are inconvenient to your political or nationalistic ambitions.

Even when territory is taken by war - the people usually go with it and are subject to new rulers. If Israel wants to keep WB and Gaza, then it can keep the people and gives them Israeli citizenship just like any other conquored country or it can ethnically cleanse the region and be comparable to Stalin who forceably moved ethnic minorities to Siberia and moved in ethnic Russians.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You did read that jews owned 10-20% of arable land, 40% was state owned and 40% was owned by the "church" and absentee landlords from other arab countries.
Bedouins had migration routes but did not own land.
The majority of land outside the towns and villages was not owned by "indigenous" arabs but rented, migrant workers, sharecropped or like feudal land worked by locals who had been in service to the owners for generations.
Much of the land was swamp, desert and rocky badlands.
Land owned by private individuals was allowed in the 19th century. Most of the locals did not wanted to be registered as owners to avoid military service. Even under the mandate they avoided registering land when offered to avoid conscription or paying taxes.
Jewish Armed Forces in the British Mandate
The 1834 arab revolt was over locals not being pressed into egyptian or ottoman military service or to pay the taxes.
Land ownership was divided into five different classifications. Private ownership was not heard of for the local outside of the towns and cities till the ottoman opened the area up to jews and wealthy muslims from elsewhere in the empire in the first hald of the 19th century. Till the end of the WWI most of the locals lived and thought only in terms of tribal or feudal terms. They were not free to be land owners.
Just because there was a sizable percentage of the population listed as muslim does not meant they were or could be land owners.
Even today many of the land rights in the region are based on the old ottoman or tribal systems.

But you have people living there now, in the West Bank, who have been there for along time - who some here are stating should categorically kicked off the land (ethnically cleansed), to another country so that region can be inhabited by others who seem to me to have no more right to it then they do.

and before Jordan occupied the west bank, there used to be jews living there for generations.

Nothing is simple about the situation

Exactly! That is what I keep saying. It's not so black and white.

 

[Coyote]

2008 Russo-Georgian diplomatic crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Yes. And they are living side by side. Has anyone suggested ethnic cleansing?

That's because neither side on the Ukraine/Russia conflict are savages. They are educated people who can have rational conversation, unlike the Palestinians. Can't trust them, can't reason with them. It's like trying to reason with a drunk person basically. Can't be done.

Do you know any Palestinians?

 

[pbel]

Coyote, et al,

This is an essential point.

But you have people living there now, in the West Bank, who have been there for along time - who some here are stating should categorically kicked off the land (ethnically cleansed), to another country so that region can be inhabited by others who seem to me to have no more right to it then they do.

Both sides are stuck in that same rut.

Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

(COMMENT)

There is a very good argument, to be made on the part of the Arab Palestinian, relative to the Settlement Issue and the Oslo Accords.

But I'm not sure that anyone (in authority) on the Arab Palestinian side of the talks is actually interested in serious negotiations.

Who, actually, wants to sit down and talk about solutions?

Most Respectively,
R

tell us your solution...

 

[Coyote]

That's why the only workable solution is a 2-state solution where both sides must give up some of their ambitions in order to secure peace and security.

Only problem is the Palestinians are refusing to give anything up and just keep demanding more pre conditions

Both sides are stuck in that same rut.

Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

Honestly, what would YOU do in Israel's situation? They HAVE to protect their people, and THOSE people keep trying to kill Israeli citizens. Are you suggesting that Israel should risk it's citizens lives?

EVERY time Israel has given them an inch, they gone right back to the bombings, suicide attacks, kidnapping and torture, and murder, etc.

The point is - Israel can't claim to have no "pre-conditions" for peace and accuse the Palestinians of trying to block the peace process with "pre-conditions". It's a blatant lie.

What are Israel's conditions? Don't lob bombs at us?

So what you are saying is - it's ok for Israel to have pre-conditions but not the Pali's?

 

[Coyote]

Also, Israel has to be concerned with even the children of Palestine. How could you possibly live side by side with people like this???

Child suicide bombers in the Israeli Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, children were used as "messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians" during the al-Aqsa Intifada. Fatah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have all been implicated in involving children in this way. The issue was brought to world attention after a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint.[6] The youngest Palestinian suicide bomber who blew himself up was Issa Bdeir, a 16-year-old high school student from the village of Al Doha. He blew himself up in a park in Rishon LeZion, killing a teenage boy and an elderly man.

According to the Israel Defense Forces, 29 suicide attacks were carried out by youth under the age of 18 in 2000–2003. From May 2001, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of 18, and more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted (three in 2004).

Ukraine and Russia live side by side.
Georgia and Russia live side by side.
East and West Germany lived side by side.
Ireland and Northern Ireland live side by side.
Bosnia and Serbia live side by side despite the genocide.

No one suggested ethnic cleansing to make it more tolerable.

Are you SERIOUS? Ukraine and Russia, Georgia and Russia? They are fighting still. Egads, I've figured it out. You are willfully blind and deaf.

Yes, they are...HOWEVER - where are the voices calling for ethnic cleansing of one of the sides so the other can live "peaceably" with those "savages"?

They are living side by side and eventually will have to work it out.

Do you understand the difference between that and ethnic cleansing?

 

[Slyhunter]

Wrong. There has long been a Palestine - it's a very old designation. It may not have been a "nation" but it was an identifiable geographic area.

Again - as supported by links to historical census data from the Ottoman's and Mandate periods it was not mostly uninhabited. It had a definate permanent population.

Why do you keep pretending that the people who inhabited the region didn't exist? That they have no rights to live where they've been living?

The Mandate's 1922 Census: 1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

Even if that were true, it still doesn't change the fact that it was a territory owned and controlled not by anyone known as a "palestinian," and that it is made up. They were Arabs, and as you link states the "military" and those of foreign nationality are more than likely not permanent residents.

The land was owned by Arab kings and then by the British. The Jewish people did not steal any land from anyone. None of your links suggest that anyone is more entitled to this land than the people who it was given to, or who won over some territory during time of war.

It's owned by the indiginous people living there that have lived there and that now call themselves Palestinians. They didn't just appear out of nowhere.

I'm not claiming entitlement of one group over another that broadly. What I'm saying is that they have lived there and their rights should not be disregarded and you can't just move whole populations out of an area because they are inconvenient to your political or nationalistic ambitions.

Even when territory is taken by war - the people usually go with it and are subject to new rulers. If Israel wants to keep WB and Gaza, then it can keep the people and gives them Israeli citizenship just like any other conquored country or it can ethnically cleanse the region and be comparable to Stalin who forceably moved ethnic minorities to Siberia and moved in ethnic Russians.

Actually they did mostly from the direction of Syria and Egypt on the promise of work.

I am claiming entitlement based on Customary International Law and international treaties that gave 77% of the land to the arab muslims and 23% to the Jews. What happened was the arabs then forcibly moved the Jews out of arab controlled territory against the Mandate rules because they were inconvenient to the arab nationalists ( neo Nazis ) political and nationalist ambitions.

Israel has already relinquished its occupation of gaza and handed control to the muslims living there. Part of the Oslo accords that the Palestinians demanded as a pre condition to peace talks. The west bank was mostly owned by Jews before the 1948 war and they were thrown of their property by the Palestinian muslims . The same Palestinian muslims that tried to throw the Jordanians of their land until they retaliated and shot 50,000 as an object lesson.
So are you now comparing the Palestinians to Stalin as they forced 500,000 Jews to leave their land and property and moved arab muslims into their homes.

That doesn't make sense. The only area where Jews held a majority - at least according to this 1898 figure, was Jeruselum.

Edited to add:
This also doesn't make any sense "as they forced 500,000 Jews to leave their land and property and moved arab muslims into their homes." When and where were 500,000 Jews forced from their homes?

You are aware there were no official census and the numbers are estimates. Many arabs avoided military service and taxes by not being counted.

Tough shit.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

No, this is not right.

So what you are saying is - it's ok for Israel to have pre-conditions but not the Pali's?

(COMMENT)

Neither side should approach the table with pre-conditions --- or --- in good faith, with any coercive advantage.

Israel cannot use expansion as a leverage and the Arab Palestinians cannot use Jihad and conflict as a leverage.

Most Respectfully,
R