The Ugly Truth of Obamacare

[Immanuel]

No rationing of medical care?

Rationing and uncontrollable government spending are not mutually exclusive.

No involvement of the gvt with you and your doctor's choices on medical treatment?

Says who? And there won't be direct involvement, however, there will be denials of service for certain situations which happens today both with Medicare and Private Insurance. Still does not mean I want a government bean counter making those decisions.

No Death panels?

I've not said there would be. Again, there will be government bean counters deciding that certain coverage will not be available.

Immie

 

[Zoom-boing]

If a public option goes through, it will be step one on the road to single-payer. Obama is gung-ho for it and hey, you have to start somewhere. Anyone who doesn't think that is a fool. When all we have is single-payer, government-run health care . . . where are our choices then? This current mess is caused by the bureaucracy of the insurance companies? lol, what the hell do you think is going to happen when uncle gets involved? How's medicare doing again? Interesting that those on the left are the ones repeating the 'death panel' stuff. You're so focused on that you miss the bigger picture of rationing. So many other solutions and suggestions are out there. Tell me, why is it that the public option is being pushed for so much? Think. Why not fix the problems they can first and see how that goes before letting uncle get it's hands on yet one more piece of your life?

Our government PAYS FOR 50% of all healthcare costs in our country today, with all government employees, all of congress and their family's, all of the military, all of the retired military and their spouse's, all veterans disabled, all of the post office employees, a deduction from taxes for all Private Employers that pay it, all of Medicaid and Medicare recipients, all of chips for children's healthcare, with medical and Pharma research and development grants etc etc etc.

Allowing one or two insurance companies in a state IS NOT competition enough to reduce our medical costs....they can easily price fix.

Having the public option available to compete with them IS IN THE BEST INTEREST of EVERYONE that wants to keep their private insurance at an affordable price....

to take or limit competition by not having a coop or public option like you all want IS WHAT WILL bankrupt us...imo and when wearing my finance hat.

Care

And how's uncle doing with that? How's medicare doing? I've never said keep the status quo. Health care reform is one thing; government taking it over is another. Sorry Care but you and I just don't see this the same. I understand your anger at the insurance companies and nowhere did I ever state that they are not a problem. What I'm saying is fix and reform what is wrong with the current program and see what happens. Throwing in a public option will lead us to single-payer, government run health care. Not immediately but down the road. Barry gave it a 15-20 time frame. Sounds about right to me.

 

[Care4all]

When our government pays, they usually have private sector compete with them to see if they can get the BILL DOWN.....this has become common fiscal practice...if the private sector can do it cheaper than the gvt, then they usually will contract it out to the private sector...

COMPETITION is good, SUPPOSEDLY....

yet our gvt is paying 50% of the health care bill for all of us, and you are willing to hand this over to the private sector without seeing if the gvt can do it better and more cost effective as a measly test....and expect me and others to hand all of these health care tax dollars being spent on Private Insurance companies without them even competing for the gvts money?

why is competition so scary to you guys? I think the Private companies will be forced to dot their i's and cross their t's so not to be wasteful or greedy and not flippantly give away 200 million dollar yearly salaries to their ceo's if they need to offer better policies to compete with the gvt...

If they are just guaranteed that everyone will have an insurance policy with them, HOW WILL COSTS be kept in line?

I am 100% against this Health care insurance reform unless there is a Public Option or Coop option to keep the Private insurance companies honest and focused on our health care and not some ceo's salary that will force them to cut what they cover for you in your plan?

I think insurance companies will NOT BELLY UP and give up their businesses to the gvt if there was a Public option...they just will not have a duopoly, as it stands now in most states....which is good, in keeping costs down and price fixing/denial of services from happening.

Care

 

[Care4all]

If a public option goes through, it will be step one on the road to single-payer. Obama is gung-ho for it and hey, you have to start somewhere. Anyone who doesn't think that is a fool. When all we have is single-payer, government-run health care . . . where are our choices then? This current mess is caused by the bureaucracy of the insurance companies? lol, what the hell do you think is going to happen when uncle gets involved? How's medicare doing again? Interesting that those on the left are the ones repeating the 'death panel' stuff. You're so focused on that you miss the bigger picture of rationing. So many other solutions and suggestions are out there. Tell me, why is it that the public option is being pushed for so much? Think. Why not fix the problems they can first and see how that goes before letting uncle get it's hands on yet one more piece of your life?

Our government PAYS FOR 50% of all healthcare costs in our country today, with all government employees, all of congress and their family's, all of the military, all of the retired military and their spouse's, all veterans disabled, all of the post office employees, a deduction from taxes for all Private Employers that pay it, all of Medicaid and Medicare recipients, all of chips for children's healthcare, with medical and Pharma research and development grants etc etc etc.

Allowing one or two insurance companies in a state IS NOT competition enough to reduce our medical costs....they can easily price fix.

Having the public option available to compete with them IS IN THE BEST INTEREST of EVERYONE that wants to keep their private insurance at an affordable price....

to take or limit competition by not having a coop or public option like you all want IS WHAT WILL bankrupt us...imo and when wearing my finance hat.

Care

And how's uncle doing with that? How's medicare doing? I've never said keep the status quo. Health care reform is one thing; government taking it over is another. Sorry Care but you and I just don't see this the same. I understand your anger at the insurance companies and nowhere did I ever state that they are not a problem. What I'm saying is fix and reform what is wrong with the current program and see what happens. Throwing in a public option will lead us to single-payer, government run health care. Not immediately but down the road. Barry gave it a 15-20 time frame. Sounds about right to me.

The Republican Medicare Pill Bill of which they passed at 3 am in the morning after holding a 15 minute vote of which the bill was legally defeated, opened for 3 hours so they could twist arms to change the votes of those voting against it, that had NO NEGOTIATIONS for bulk discounts and no ability to buy drugs in a freemarket in the bill, IS WHAT IS BANKRUPTING medicare...the republicans ONCE AGAIN limited what choices we could make by giving the PHARMA industry rules that make them get tingly feelings down their legs....

Obama is no better on this topic...settled for PHARMA giving us $8 billion a year for the next 10 years, $80 billion in total as savings if we do not legislate that we can negotiate for bulk discounts, nor buy from Canada...

BIG fricking deal....$80 billion is probably what we could save every 2 years, (that's $400 billion in 10 yrs) if we could negotiate for bulk discounts as other countries do with the PHARMA industry!!!!

The medicare pill bill was a GIFTHORSE to the PHARMA industry.

This health insurance form, without the public or coop option. IS A GIFTHORSE to the Health Insurance industry...imo.

and yes zoom, we do respectfully disagree!

Care

 

[Zoom-boing]

you are willing to hand this over to the private sector without seeing if the gvt can do it better and more cost effective as a measly test

They won't do it better, they won't do it more cost effectively and if you think it's 'just a measly test', you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Care4all]

you are willing to hand this over to the private sector without seeing if the gvt can do it better and more cost effective as a measly test

They won't do it better, they won't do it more cost effectively and if you think it's 'just a measly test', you're sadly mistaken.

If they do not offer a competitive product, then the private sector will win out in full and the public option dies and whithers on the vine...NO ONE IS FORCED to buy this policy...it is an OPTION, if you want to go with them instead of being FORCED to have to go with the private sector insurance...no one will choose the gvt plan if it doesn't give them what they need and provide at least as much as the private sector does in benefits for the money...why would they?

If you are so certain the gvt option can not perform and be competitive, then why are you against it being tried out...it'll just fail, as you say....and it very possibly could, but then we are all stuck with the non competitive private insurance as it is now...why not give it a whirl...IF IT IS COMPETITIVE, then that would be GOOD, no???

care

 

[Ravi]

I've not said there would be. Again, there will be government bean counters deciding that certain coverage will not be available.

Immie

This doesn't currently happen with medicare so there is no reason it would happen elsewhere.

 

[veritas]

you are willing to hand this over to the private sector without seeing if the gvt can do it better and more cost effective as a measly test

They won't do it better, they won't do it more cost effectively and if you think it's 'just a measly test', you're sadly mistaken.

The government already does it better and more cost effectively. Medicare and VA prove that. And it has been proven it can be even more cost effective if we attack the problems with both.

 

[OneWorld]

OneWorld it is evident that you think changing the cost of the bureaucracy from that of the private insurance companies to that of the U.S. Government is acceptable. I on the other hand prefer to have insurance companies competing against each other thus holding to cost down to some extent. When you give the government a monoply on our healthcare there will be no incentive for them to keep the costs down or our taxes down. Costs will go through the roof.

Medical professionals are in favor of this... hmm, could it be that they see bilking Obamacare as likely as bilking Medicare in their future?

I repeat... there will be no incentive for either the government or healthcare professionals to keep the costs down. Our government doesn't usually care about controlling costs. They only need to bump up taxes to cover the costs or add it on to the National Debt and let our Great Grandchildren pay for it. That is criminal in my opinion.

Immie

No, I just have two eyes and two ears and can clearly see that the current system is NOT working. Are you deaf and blind sir?

And what in the world are you talking about? That's not what's going to happen. Explain to me how that's going to happen based on health care reform. You're acting as if there will be no private sector for health care which is absolutely untrue.

The current process is going to bankrupt us... meaning you won't even have to worry about taxes period. Do you know how many senior citizens lived in poverty before medicare? 80%+.... what is it now? 12% the same ratio of poverty for all americans.

 

[veritas]

I don't think so. The social programs we already have will remain with us until the day that our government collapses. If... when Medicare and Social Security go belly up, Congress will simply raise taxes again and again until they have taxed us to death and finally the country's economy collapses.

Which is why we can't afford to add more!

Immie

Under Eisenhower, the tax rate for those making over $400,000. was 91%. Our current top rate is 35%.

So you are seeking to compete with Eisenhower's tax rates?

This is one of the dumbest things I've read in quite some time.

Most of the cost in health care is in the bureaucracy of the health insurance companies. I believe they said over 40% (someone correct if I'm wrong). Cut this out, and you're drastically driving down the cost. Not to mention we already have medicare. Also, almost all doctor associations are in favor of this reform, so they must not be too worried about "giovernment takeover".... they just want to practice medicine without the current "private take over" they are dealing with in insurance companies. Go talk to some doctors at least... jesus people.

Man, just stop regurgitating what people are saying and think for yourself for a minute.

OneWorld it is evident that you think changing the cost of the bureaucracy from that of the private insurance companies to that of the U.S. Government is acceptable. I on the other hand prefer to have insurance companies competing against each other thus holding to cost down to some extent. When you give the government a monoply on our healthcare there will be no incentive for them to keep the costs down or our taxes down. Costs will go through the roof.

Medical professionals are in favor of this... hmm, could it be that they see bilking Obamacare as likely as bilking Medicare in their future?

I repeat... there will be no incentive for either the government or healthcare professionals to keep the costs down. Our government doesn't usually care about controlling costs. They only need to bump up taxes to cover the costs or add it on to the National Debt and let our Great Grandchildren pay for it. That is criminal in my opinion.

Immie

You are aware that Medicare is paid for by the subsequent generations behind/younger than the people that receive it don't you? Or not? Because your children and grandchildren and great grandchildren ARE already paying for your Medicare. That's how it works, if you didn't know already, which it seems you didn't based on your above statement. So the subsequent generations want to pay for you and have a program where they pay for themselves......they want to buy in on the system with a public option. How can you argue with that?

Additionally, what if I don't want to enrich the private sector but instead wish to pool my money with other citizens and put it into the government program? Why can't I have that choice? I'm already supporting the Medicare pool, why can't we have a program for "underage" people????

 

[Immanuel]

OneWorld it is evident that you think changing the cost of the bureaucracy from that of the private insurance companies to that of the U.S. Government is acceptable. I on the other hand prefer to have insurance companies competing against each other thus holding to cost down to some extent. When you give the government a monoply on our healthcare there will be no incentive for them to keep the costs down or our taxes down. Costs will go through the roof.

Medical professionals are in favor of this... hmm, could it be that they see bilking Obamacare as likely as bilking Medicare in their future?

I repeat... there will be no incentive for either the government or healthcare professionals to keep the costs down. Our government doesn't usually care about controlling costs. They only need to bump up taxes to cover the costs or add it on to the National Debt and let our Great Grandchildren pay for it. That is criminal in my opinion.

Immie

No, I just have two eyes and two ears and can clearly see that the current system is NOT working. Are you deaf and blind sir?

And what in the world are you talking about? That's not what's going to happen. Explain to me how that's going to happen based on health care reform. You're acting as if there will be no private sector for health care which is absolutely untrue.

The current process is going to bankrupt us... meaning you won't even have to worry about taxes period. Do you know how many senior citizens lived in poverty before medicare? 80%+.... what is it now? 12% the same ratio of poverty for all americans.

OneWorld, Let me ask you, if you ran a business, which you obviously do not cause you have no business sense at all, and you were told you were no longer able to write new contracts... aka you could no longer bring in new customers... and that within five years your current customers were going to dwindle away what the hell do you think would happen to your business?

Simple question.

I repeat and I don't think I can make it any simpler for you. This plan is designed to kill the private sector. Sure, they are playing word games with you liberals. Telling you they don't want to do anything to the private sector, but they know full well that if they shut off the revenue source for Private Insurers... which section 102 of HR 3200 clearly does... the sector will wither away and die and we will be stuck with Uncle Obama controlling our healthcare option.

Sure they will set up psuedo-private plans that have to fit in their narrow-minded idea of what insurance should offer, but those plans will be governed by the U.S. Government. In other words, you will get the Social Security options of health care. By the way do you know how many options you have for Social Secuirty? One, you Social Security funds go into a single piss poor plan that even a monkey could pick stocks and perform better than the government does with your Social Security taxes. That is what you will get when Uncle Obama controls your health plan... one option.

Easy enough for you to understand? Can't be any simpler than that.

As for whether or not, I realize that we are in need of Health Care Reform, Hell Yes, I have been screaming about it since at least Bush's first term. We are in a crisis. Does that mean we jump from the frying pan into the fire? That is your solution.

Immie

 

[Ravi]

Should we refuse Americans medical care because it might give private insurers too much competition? If they can't compete then they find another way to make their living, just like millions of Americans whose jobs have been outsourced must find another way to make their living.

It's amazing that people are wringing their hands over businesses that have screwed the American public for decades...denying them care, dictating which doctor they must use, dropping their coverage at a whim...it boggles my mind.

 

[Immanuel]

Should we refuse Americans medical care because it might give private insurers too much competition? If they can't compete then they find another way to make their living, just like millions of Americans whose jobs have been outsourced must find another way to make their living.

It's amazing that people are wringing their hands over businesses that have screwed the American public for decades...denying them care, dictating which doctor they must use, dropping their coverage at a whim...it boggles my mind.

What is amazing to me is that you want to give the government who has screwed you for much longer than the health care industry sole control of your health care.

Now that is amazing.

Immie

 

[Ravi]

Should we refuse Americans medical care because it might give private insurers too much competition? If they can't compete then they find another way to make their living, just like millions of Americans whose jobs have been outsourced must find another way to make their living.

It's amazing that people are wringing their hands over businesses that have screwed the American public for decades...denying them care, dictating which doctor they must use, dropping their coverage at a whim...it boggles my mind.

What is amazing to me is that you want to give the government who has screwed you for much longer than the health care industry sole control of your health care.

Now that is amazing.

Immie

Is that what I want? Thanks for telling me.

 

[Immanuel]

Should we refuse Americans medical care because it might give private insurers too much competition? If they can't compete then they find another way to make their living, just like millions of Americans whose jobs have been outsourced must find another way to make their living.

It's amazing that people are wringing their hands over businesses that have screwed the American public for decades...denying them care, dictating which doctor they must use, dropping their coverage at a whim...it boggles my mind.

What is amazing to me is that you want to give the government who has screwed you for much longer than the health care industry sole control of your health care.

Now that is amazing.

Immie

Is that what I want? Thanks for telling me.

Seems to me that you have been preaching it for days and the fact is you attempted to do the exact same thing with my statement, so what's your problem?



Immie

 

[Care4all]

OneWorld it is evident that you think changing the cost of the bureaucracy from that of the private insurance companies to that of the U.S. Government is acceptable. I on the other hand prefer to have insurance companies competing against each other thus holding to cost down to some extent. When you give the government a monoply on our healthcare there will be no incentive for them to keep the costs down or our taxes down. Costs will go through the roof.

Medical professionals are in favor of this... hmm, could it be that they see bilking Obamacare as likely as bilking Medicare in their future?

I repeat... there will be no incentive for either the government or healthcare professionals to keep the costs down. Our government doesn't usually care about controlling costs. They only need to bump up taxes to cover the costs or add it on to the National Debt and let our Great Grandchildren pay for it. That is criminal in my opinion.

Immie

No, I just have two eyes and two ears and can clearly see that the current system is NOT working. Are you deaf and blind sir?

And what in the world are you talking about? That's not what's going to happen. Explain to me how that's going to happen based on health care reform. You're acting as if there will be no private sector for health care which is absolutely untrue.

The current process is going to bankrupt us... meaning you won't even have to worry about taxes period. Do you know how many senior citizens lived in poverty before medicare? 80%+.... what is it now? 12% the same ratio of poverty for all americans.

OneWorld, Let me ask you, if you ran a business, which you obviously do not cause you have no business sense at all, and you were told you were no longer able to write new contracts... aka you could no longer bring in new customers... and that within five years your current customers were going to dwindle away what the hell do you think would happen to your business?

Simple question.

I repeat and I don't think I can make it any simpler for you. This plan is designed to kill the private sector. Sure, they are playing word games with you liberals. Telling you they don't want to do anything to the private sector, but they know full well that if they shut off the revenue source for Private Insurers... which section 102 of HR 3200 clearly does... the sector will wither away and die and we will be stuck with Uncle Obama controlling our healthcare option.

Sure they will set up psuedo-private plans that have to fit in their narrow-minded idea of what insurance should offer, but those plans will be governed by the U.S. Government. In other words, you will get the Social Security options of health care. By the way do you know how many options you have for Social Secuirty? One, you Social Security funds go into a single piss poor plan that even a monkey could pick stocks and perform better than the government does with your Social Security taxes.

Easy enough for you to understand? Can't be any simpler than that.

As for whether or not, I realize that we are in need of Health Care Reform, Hell Yes, I have been screaming about it since at least Bush's first term. We are in a crisis. Does that mean we jump from the frying pan into the fire? That is your solution.

Immie

what a silly crock of made up drama poopie!, Immanuel!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what is in bold...is simply false...what in the world made you say that intellectually dishonest statement? every insurance company will develop qualified plans on day 1, if they are participating in the gvt's plan.... you can keep your old plan and not go with your insurance company's qualified plan with ALL OF THE FEATURES AND BENEFITS REQUIRED of the new ones, for 5 years if you would like to....if not, then with your same insurance provider you can take out a new plan....THEY ARE NOT losing business silly, they will be gaining near 30 million more people....?

where in the world do you get this poopie from?

care

 

[OneWorld]

OneWorld, Let me ask you, if you ran a business, which you obviously do not cause you have no business sense at all, and you were told you were no longer able to write new contracts... aka you could no longer bring in new customers... and that within five years your current customers were going to dwindle away what the hell do you think would happen to your business?

Actually, you're right, I don't run a business bit I do run my own corporation, which we are now ranked #4 in the industry. You can read more about it here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/introduce-yourself/84785-hello-from-oneworld.html

I don't think many people (or liberals for that matter) don't understand that having a public option isn't going to effect the private sector. There are plenty of studies that have shown that the private sector is going to lose at least 20%-30% of it's business. They aren't playing word games. The fact is that the private sector of health care will still exist, but it won't have a monopoly on how they function and run health care. Because right now the insurance companies are dictating health policy. This isn't right. What do you not understand about this.

I could address this on multiple levels, but would you ever get it? Medicine is an art. And as an art it becomes corrupt and CANNOT function how it's supposed to when money is the primary motivating factor. Do you need proof of this, just look at our system. It's horrible on so many levels, and it's bordering on completely being morally bankrupt. We don't have health care in this country. What we currently have is a system designed from the schools down (where big pharma pays for those new big buildings) to keep people ignorant of wellness and preventative care. Then it's a completely re-active system that mainly functions like a drug pusher to keep people inoculated and strung out on drugs as long as possible. It's disgusting and morally wrong.

Simple question for you. Why are you supporting a system that has completely failed all of us? It's failed even the people who have the "really good" Ferrari of insurance plans (like my wife had from her union job - which btw, costs $28k/yr... for a 36 year old). It's failing to address the real problems of health, but she does get $1 prescription drugs!

You aren't benefiting from this system, so why in the world would you defend it?

 

[veritas]

Who cares if the health insurance industry fails and goes away? I sure don't. It's a drag on the entire country.

 

[Immanuel]

OneWorld, Let me ask you, if you ran a business, which you obviously do not cause you have no business sense at all, and you were told you were no longer able to write new contracts... aka you could no longer bring in new customers... and that within five years your current customers were going to dwindle away what the hell do you think would happen to your business?

Actually, you're right, I don't run a business bit I do run my own corporation, which we are now ranked #4 in the industry. You can read more about it here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/introduce-yourself/84785-hello-from-oneworld.html

I don't think many people (or liberals for that matter) don't understand that having a public option isn't going to effect the private sector. There are plenty of studies that have shown that the private sector is going to lose at least 20%-30% of it's business. They aren't playing word games. The fact is that the private sector of health care will still exist, but it won't have a monopoly on how they function and run health care. Because right now the insurance companies are dictating health policy. This isn't right. What do you not understand about this.

I could address this on multiple levels, but would you ever get it? Medicine is an art. And as an art it becomes corrupt and CANNOT function how it's supposed to when money is the primary motivating factor. Do you need proof of this, just look at our system. It's horrible on so many levels, and it's bordering on completely being morally bankrupt. We don't have health care in this country. What we currently have is a system designed from the schools down (where big pharma pays for those new big buildings) to keep people ignorant of wellness and preventative care. Then it's a completely re-active system that mainly functions like a drug pusher to keep people inoculated and strung out on drugs as long as possible. It's disgusting and morally wrong.

Simple question for you. Why are you supporting a system that has completely failed all of us? It's failed even the people who have the "really good" Ferrari of insurance plans (like my wife had from her union job - which btw, costs $28k/yr... for a 36 year old). It's failing to address the real problems of health, but she does get $1 prescription drugs!

You aren't benefiting from this system, so why in the world would you defend it?

Simple answer: Politicians are morally corrupt. You want them to run your life... I don't. It's that simple.

Private Health Care will be history under this plan. That is the morally corrupt intentions of the Democrats. Big Government is all they want and this makes government bigger.

Private Health Care will not exist under this plan. There will be one option and one option only. You will have government mandated coverage. Private Insurers will not be allowed to offer any thing that is not designated by the government. They will be told what they can offer and what they can charge. That simply is a crock of shit and quite simply it will destroy the industry.

I would most definitely prefer having the Board of Directors of CIGNA, United Healthcare, Blue Cross/Blue Sheild, Kaiser Permanente, AETNA etc. compete to win my business than I would like to have Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Barney Frank, John McCain, Bill Nelson, Mel Martinez etc. dictate my coverage with the ability to charge me whatever amount they want and increase those charges whenever they want without justification.

Immie

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Who are these delusional fools, who when confronted with a bankrupt national pension plan, national medical plan, postal service, nationally funded RR and mortgage backers, etc.... stand and applaud and clamor for more?

WHO THE HELL ARE THESE PEOPLE???