Wow people have really strayed from topic with this thread which was someone's stupid claim that our nation was not founded on Christian principles when in fact the writings of the more than 200 founders SPECIFICALLY detail how Christianity led them to design the system they did. Those arguing otherwise have clearly never read the writings of those who spent years and years debating how to best incorporate Christian principles into the creation of our system, what our Constitution must and must not include all while still providing religious protections for all. It was not founded as a theocracy which is a far different thing and the founders specifically rejected that as the ONLY way to protect all denominations of Christianity -which were viewed as different religions and not as one religion of "Christianity". Remember this was a time when nearly everyone was a Christian, there were no Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans and only a few hundred Jews at the time. They were not interested in protecting non-Christians although they knew they would be doing so in order to protect all those who practiced the different Christian religions. There is no such thing as Christianity being one religion - and among Christians even today, all those different denominations are all considered to be totally different religions. Just ask a Baptist if he thinks Catholicism is the same religion as his own -or a Catholic if he thinks Mormonism is the same religion is as his own.
Sorry for those who want to re-write US history and hope to eliminate any role that Christianity played in its founding -but its very founding was the result of Christian principles put into practice in the first place. Those who like to pretend Christians actually want to impose a theocracy like Islam does are just full of shit -it is not consistent with Christian PRINCIPLES because there is no such thing as a "Christian" government to put in charge of it. That is because Christianity is not a single religion but a label to identify HUNDREDS of religions -which are considered to be different religions even by the practitioners of those different denominations to this very day. The founders rejected a theocracy NOT because they rejected the authority of Christ -but because they rejected the idea of placing one denomination (and its disputed doctrine) of Christianity above all the others[/B] which would open the door to future persecution of all the others just as happened routinely in Europe. But that our system was founded on Christian principles? ABSOLUTELY and you have to be an ignorant MORON not to know it because the founders left REAMS of their own writings and letters discussing how to best call upon those Christian principles, how a government might best utilize those Christian principles when put into practice and the role their own religious beliefs played in the entire process both on an individual level and among discussions and exchanges of letters between them. Those writings still exist and all you have to do is READ them to know what a lie the assertion is made by the person who started this thread who wants a re-write of history in order to diminish the importance the fundamental religious beliefs of the vast majority had in the formation of this country! The religious beliefs of the overwhelming majority of ANY population are going to VASTLY influence what kind of society and government they form! DUH!
Nearly to a one at some point in the process these founders discussed, expressed, repeated or wrote about their desire to create a system that best reflected the PURE teachings of Christ but WITHOUT imposing a specific religion on citizens -because no system based on Christian principles could properly reflect those principles without also respecting the gift from God of FREE WILL -a fundamental Christian belief that the individual not only has a right to govern himself, but MUST govern himself -both in his daily life and in his ability to freely choose the leaders who will lead his government. This country was the first to be based on the RIGHT of human beings to govern THEMSELVES instead of one that assumed some people had a "right" to rule over others. "Free will" is an inextricable part of fundamental Christian doctrine that goes beyond the rejection of forced conversion as meaningless to God, but also means He gave us the RIGHT to self-governance and no one the "right" to RULE. It is inextricably intertwined with the FUNDAMENTAL Christian principle and belief that God wants us to voluntarily come to Him and His teachings and totally rejects what is forced as the worthless crap it is. No other religion values the gift of free will to the degree Christianity or does and some outright reject it as a valuable gift from God and view it more as a curse.
For example, in Islam their god wants other men to force everyone else to do their god's bidding, proscribes rigorous, rigid and inflexible control over members in every way and very specific harsh, brutal, barbarian punishment and even murder as the tools to do it. Their god not only approves but orders stripping man of his free will and forcibly imposing their god's will on all others even at the point of a sword.
MAJOR difference in the fundamental principles in the religious beliefs of a population will naturally produce MAJOR differences in the kinds of governments that can emerge from those principles. You really want to pretend Christian principles had nothing to do with the formation of THIS unique system of government -then go try living under one that was born of Islamic principles instead and see if you can spot the differences! The reason Americans, who were nearly ALL Christian at the time -claimed and still claim their rights are God given is because it serves as a very specific warning to those who seek power that what God has given us, no man has the right to take from us. Go try telling the populations of Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Iran about their God given right of self-governance, their right of free speech, their right to worship as they choose and I'll take bets on the length of your survival. But before opening your mouth remember a recent poll following Mubarek's fall showed that 80% of Egyptians believed their non-Muslim minority deserved to be KILLED for being "infidels". And just think -Egypt is far from being the most radical Muslim nation.
Those claiming Islamofascist terrorists the ones who actually do the murders, represent some kind of MINUSCULE percentage of the whole are right -only a small percentage of the whole are willing to carry out the slaughter personally. But the percent of Muslims who SUPPORT them in doing it? TOTALLY different story!
Unlike other religions, Islam is EXTREMELY specific about the obligations of the individual when it comes to other Muslims. In Islam it is believed that Islam is the only "perfect" religion and Muslims the only "perfect" practitioners of any religion. So in Islam, as the only perfect people on the planet, Allah would NEVER allow Muslims as a group to go wrong, do wrong, be on the wrong side -not ever. NO EXCEPTIONS. But ESPECIALLY not ever with regard to "filthy infidels". In their bizarro world since ONLY Muslims practice the "perfect" religion -what they do as Muslims is also "perfect" because their god would never allow the only "perfect" people to be on the wrong side or do the "wrong" thing. Because that would mean if they are "wrong" or doing "bad" -that it is the infidels who are right and doing good. Which is impossible in their belief system.
The possibility that Muslims as a group are on the wrong side does not even exist as a possibility in their belief system EVER. Only an individual can be wrong -but NOT the group itself and their religion is all about keeping the individual with the group. Now this is where it gets interesting with regard to the responsibilities of individual Muslims as laid out in their religious doctrine. It specifically says that in conflicts between Muslims and non-Muslims, there is NO issue here for Muslims to know who they MUST support in that conflict. No real Muslim would ever support the non-Muslim side and any who does is not only wrong, but SO horrifically wrong many Muslims believe they would be deserving of the worst punishment both here and in the afterlife. Going against other Muslims and supporting infidels against them is spitting in the eye of Allah who would never allow the only people he loves AS A GROUP, the only group of people to practice the only "perfect" religion and do so "perfectly" -to EVER be on the wrong side in any conflict with non-Muslims! See how handy such a belief can be for all sorts of exploitation?
The individual Muslim already knows which he supports because his religion TELLS him which side he must support in such conflicts. He doesn't have to think about it, no moral quandary for him. When it comes to issues like murderous attacks on civilians, the majority -even if they don't support the idea -are NOT going to publicly condemn it! At best they will just give their religious rationalization for it -one of those "yes its bad but the other side is so much worse Muslims are forced to do it." A lot of people who are SO totally ignorant about this religion like to assign the same kind of traits and characteristics they know go with being Christian -as being traits of any and all people including Muslims, apparently ignorant that those are not only NOT valued traits in Islam, many are outright rejected. Unlike Christianity, Islam is not about INDIVIDUAL salvation in the first place - that is a foreign concept in Islam. So is the idea of "sin" which is never mentioned or the idea that God grieves over man's sins. There is no repetition of God's Law has handed to Moses for a reason -Islam rejects it for its own law which favors Muslims at the expense of all others. Which is why they get far more upset about a cartoon drawn by a non-Muslim than the deliberate mass murder of innocent but INFIDEL children blown to bits by a Muslim. Their value system requires they place far, far less value on the life of a non-Muslim than the worst scum Muslim. That is just the way it is. They will rampage in the street looking for someone to kill - about only one of those. A major difference in thinking is even the notion of God's love. If you ask a Muslim if Allah loves him personally he might answer "only Allah knows". But in Christianity God's love for each and everyone one of us is an inextricable, rock bottom hardcore principle of Christianity! Christians believe as a fact that God knows and loves EACH of us as individuals -whether you love Him back or not! Christians believe we will each be judged for what we have done as individuals but in Islam it is the group that their god loves and individuals will be judged for how well they performed
as part of that group. Speaking out against other Muslims to infidels would be viewed as not just undesirable -but treasonous to the group. Their doctrine specifically says to keep any disagreements from being known by infidels who might use those to create even greater wedges within the Muslims community - and to present a united front. And that means doing so even in the face of the pure evil repeatedly done in the name of their religion.
You can see where these kinds of very fundamental differences in religious principles and beliefs would lead the practitioners of each religion to go in dramatically different directions when it comes to the kinds of governments they would create to live by and under! DUH!
There aren't three conflicts in the world that Islamofascism isn't at the root of that conflict -and you'd be hard pressed to find one that Muslims as a group do not pray for the success of the Muslim side in those conflicts in their mosques. In their religion they would be WRONG not to pray for the success of Muslims in any conflict with non-Muslims. There is no crime against humanity that is too horrific that would cause Muslims as a whole to suddenly side with non-Muslims in ANY conflict, not as long as they claim to do it in the name of Islam and not as long as their victims are non-Muslims and they claim to commit the horror in the name of Islam. In addition they are taught that any internal disagreements NEVER take place in front of non-believers because they might use it as a wedge to try and divide them further. So they must remain SILENT in front of the rest of us even if they actually object to the monsters among them hiding behind their religion out there raping children, butchering babies and blowing up unarmed civilians. Because a united FRONT before us "filthy infidels" is more important than letting us know how many -if any at all -actually condemn these kinds of barbaric acts done in the name of their religion. The problem is that Muslim extremists can EASILY find plenty in their religious doctrine to justify the most horrific acts against infidels while those who oppose it would have a harder time finding the religious justification for condemning it and that's a fact. So as long as the extremists confine themselves to making non-Muslims the victims of their psychopathy -they can count on the bulk of the world's Muslims to pray for their success when behind the closed doors of their mosque and shovel plenty of money their way to help do it.
A lot of non-Muslims tend to view all these different conflict as unrelated, individual conflicts. But among Muslims they are all part of the same ongoing conflict, just different fronts on that same conflict -a conflict their religion promises THEY will win and tells them it is their destiny and their god's promise they will be the lord and masters over us all. And if it means slaughtering us by the hundreds, thousands or even millions to get us to bow down to them and accept their claim to a "right" to rule over us all -that's just too bad for the rest of us because their god has no problem with it. The Koran is a book intended to be used to maintain GROUP control and keep the bulk of Muslims working to the same game plan to achieve power HERE ON EARTH. A book that repeatedly warns the individual what will happen to him if he strays or deviates away.
You doubt that -just compare the sound of CRICKETS you heard time and time again no matter who were the victims, even CHILDREN -as long as those being slaughtered were "filthy infidels". Compared to the OUTRAGE if Muslim civilians were ACCIDENTALLY killed by an errant US bomb. Or compare it to the DEMONSTRATIONS and KILLINGS over a fucking cartoon compared to the sound of crickets when it was THOUSANDS of Americans killed by Muslims. That silence was deafening because it actually spoke VOLUMES and addressed the fundamental religious beliefs of these people. What you get from people with regard to the kind of government they would seek to create is an INTRINSIC part of their religious beliefs. And you really have to be an uneducated moron to not get that.
And to underscore that, just consider some things. Among US Muslims under the age of 30, 1 in 4 believes the suicide bombing of unarmed civilians is acceptable. I find that appalling, frightening and downright scary. Comparing Muslims from different western nations, the BARE majority of US Muslims say they are concerned about Muslim extremism (51%) -which means 49% of them are NOT concerned about it -which I find appalling as well. But in France, Germany and Spain -all of which have significantly more trouble with Muslim extremism than we do here -nowhere close to half of their Muslims are concerned about Muslim extremism! In the Middle East the percent who are concerned about extremist are single digits and in fact a Muslim who even publicly denounces or speaks out against Muslim extremism is likely going to get him killed. With no outrage in the Muslim community when he is.
Of course the religious principles and beliefs of the overwhelming majority of any given population will absolutely determine what kinds of governments can emerge. And for the ignorant who just can't grasp this notion -for pete's sake take a basic course in anthropology and get involved in educating yourself instead of indulging in wishful thinking.
Muslim Americans: Middle Class and Mostly Mainstream - Pew Research Center 1 in 4 US American Muslims under age 30...
Where Terrorism Finds Support in the Muslim World - Pew Research Center
RealClearPolitics - Articles - A Rising Tide of Fury "Extrapolating those percentages to the world Muslim population, roughly 250 million Muslims may approve, under some circumstances, of terrorism attacks on civilians generally. One might reasonably guess a somewhat larger number would favor it if limited to American victims."
Muslim Statistics - WikiIslam
