The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[HUGGY]

Our Founding Fathers were men of faith.

• Virtually all those involved in the founding enterprise were God-fearing men in the Christian sense; most were Calvinistic Protestants.
• The Founders were deeply influenced by a biblical view of man and government. With a sober understanding of the fallenness of man, they devised a system of limited authority and checks and balances.
• The Founders understood that fear of God, moral leadership, and a righteous citizenry were necessary for their great experiment to succeed.
• Therefore, they structured a political climate that was encouraging to Christianity and accommodating to religion, rather than hostile to it.
• Protestant Christianity was the prevailing religious view for the first 150 years of our history.

However...

• The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.
• They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation.

I stumble on the symbolism and the obvious difference(s) between what/who they had and had made their God vs the God of our 'up for grabs' [mis]interpreted bible of today. Yet, I am also more paleoconservative and fundamentalist than most others are. There were things at work then that allowed the strict structure and forced understanding of mainstream to be streamline... But it isn't so today. Because our ways have come to be more relaxed and our thoughts more fluid, be it evolution of the mind or else... What was said to be solid and sturdy structure is something that many recognize as not being so at all.

Were 'we' founded on Christianity? It will only come to be more and more controversial as time passes because the preservation of labels and their definitions are not being kept.

What makes you think their God and our God aren't the same God?

You seem to have difficulty with one simple question. Do you beleive this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles? Given what we know of our founding fathers and their beliefs, coupled with the wrtings of historical documents, this really should be a no-brainer.

Again with the un answerable question. In the sense that there is no god...the one in the imagination of the people of 1750 was the same imaginary one you believe in. Of course no one knows how crazy YOUR imagination is...so I must confine my comparison to all crazy beliefs in any god irrespective to how insane any ones concept of a god is..

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I stumble on the symbolism and the obvious difference(s) between what/who they had and had made their God vs the God of our 'up for grabs' [mis]interpreted bible of today. Yet, I am also more paleoconservative and fundamentalist than most others are. There were things at work then that allowed the strict structure and forced understanding of mainstream to be streamline... But it isn't so today. Because our ways have come to be more relaxed and our thoughts more fluid, be it evolution of the mind or else... What was said to be solid and sturdy structure is something that many recognize as not being so at all.

Were 'we' founded on Christianity? It will only come to be more and more controversial as time passes because the preservation of labels and their definitions are not being kept.

What makes you think their God and our God aren't the same God?

You seem to have difficulty with one simple question. Do you beleive this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles? Given what we know of our founding fathers and their beliefs, coupled with the wrtings of historical documents, this really should be a no-brainer.

Again with the un answerable question. In the sense that there is no god...the one in the imagination of the people of 1750 was the same imaginary one you believe in. Of course no one knows how crazy YOUR imagination is...so I must confine my comparison to all crazy beliefs in any god irrespective to how insane any ones concept of a god is..

Asking someone what they think is unanswerable? Maybe for your dumbass it would be.

Knowing that the majority of our Founding Fathers read from the same Bible as todays Christians do, then it's easy to conclude that we believed in the same God.

If you truly believe there is no God, then why do you put so much effort into debating religious issues?

Seems to me your trying to either 1) persuade the unpersuadable or 2) you're not very confident in your belief.

 

[HUGGY]

What makes you think their God and our God aren't the same God?

You seem to have difficulty with one simple question. Do you beleive this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles? Given what we know of our founding fathers and their beliefs, coupled with the wrtings of historical documents, this really should be a no-brainer.

Again with the un answerable question. In the sense that there is no god...the one in the imagination of the people of 1750 was the same imaginary one you believe in. Of course no one knows how crazy YOUR imagination is...so I must confine my comparison to all crazy beliefs in any god irrespective to how insane any ones concept of a god is..

Asking someone what they think is unanswerable? Maybe for your dumbass it would be.

Knowing that the majority of our Founding Fathers read from the same Bible as todays Christians do, then it's easy to conclude that we believed in the same God.

If you truly believe there is no God, then why do you put so much effort into debating religious issues?

Seems to me your trying to either 1) persuade the unpersuadable or 2) you're not very confident in your belief.

Ah..not so fast cowgirl! I have had success. I have converted several people from the darkness of Christianity to the light. Probably not entirely my doing but one of my successes was even a Catholic Priest. Granted it is hard work. The reward is small but we do what we can. I have never hit a hole in one in golf either but I still play the game.

 

[JScott]

What I have come to know is that the Founding Fathers' religions should be questioned and understood before the system(s) they put in place can be better defined. Apparently too few have done so. Personally, what has come to be known as Judeo-Christianity is what 'they' say the basics of the system are, but what Judeo-Christianity is becoming is not what it once was, either. This is not our ancestors world, for sure.

Our Founding Fathers were men of faith.

• Virtually all those involved in the founding enterprise were God-fearing men in the Christian sense; most were Calvinistic Protestants.
• The Founders were deeply influenced by a biblical view of man and government. With a sober understanding of the fallenness of man, they devised a system of limited authority and checks and balances.
• The Founders understood that fear of God, moral leadership, and a righteous citizenry were necessary for their great experiment to succeed.
• Therefore, they structured a political climate that was encouraging to Christianity and accommodating to religion, rather than hostile to it.
• Protestant Christianity was the prevailing religious view for the first 150 years of our history.

However...

• The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.
• They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation.

Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin.[14] However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[15]

 

[AllieBaba]

What I have come to know is that the Founding Fathers' religions should be questioned and understood before the system(s) they put in place can be better defined. Apparently too few have done so. Personally, what has come to be known as Judeo-Christianity is what 'they' say the basics of the system are, but what Judeo-Christianity is becoming is not what it once was, either. This is not our ancestors world, for sure.

Our Founding Fathers were men of faith.

• Virtually all those involved in the founding enterprise were God-fearing men in the Christian sense; most were Calvinistic Protestants.
• The Founders were deeply influenced by a biblical view of man and government. With a sober understanding of the fallenness of man, they devised a system of limited authority and checks and balances.
• The Founders understood that fear of God, moral leadership, and a righteous citizenry were necessary for their great experiment to succeed.
• Therefore, they structured a political climate that was encouraging to Christianity and accommodating to religion, rather than hostile to it.
• Protestant Christianity was the prevailing religious view for the first 150 years of our history.

However...

• The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.
• They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation.

Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin.[14] However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[15]

What are you trying to prove? That they were Christian? We already know that.

 

[Gadawg73]

What was the colonies founded on before we had our revolution?
And then all of a sudden these men changed overnight and founded this country on "Christian principles"?
Folks, the Founders were basically THE SAME PEOPLE the day after this great nation was founded as they were when they were colonialists. And guess what those colonialists called and refered to themselves before the founding of this nation? ENGLISH.
What set us apart from what we we were BEFORE the revolution and The Constitution was written until AFTER the revolution and the Constitution was written was not religion. It was THE LAW.
Tell me how the nation suddenly changed over night from what we were before the revolution and then all of a sudden became a nation founded on "Christian principles".

 

[Iridescence]

Our Founding Fathers were men of faith.

• Virtually all those involved in the founding enterprise were God-fearing men in the Christian sense; most were Calvinistic Protestants.
• The Founders were deeply influenced by a biblical view of man and government. With a sober understanding of the fallenness of man, they devised a system of limited authority and checks and balances.
• The Founders understood that fear of God, moral leadership, and a righteous citizenry were necessary for their great experiment to succeed.
• Therefore, they structured a political climate that was encouraging to Christianity and accommodating to religion, rather than hostile to it.
• Protestant Christianity was the prevailing religious view for the first 150 years of our history.

However...

• The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.
• They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation.

I stumble on the symbolism and the obvious difference(s) between what/who they had and had made their God vs the God of our 'up for grabs' [mis]interpreted bible of today. Yet, I am also more paleoconservative and fundamentalist than most others are. There were things at work then that allowed the strict structure and forced understanding of mainstream to be streamline... But it isn't so today. Because our ways have come to be more relaxed and our thoughts more fluid, be it evolution of the mind or else... What was said to be solid and sturdy structure is something that many recognize as not being so at all.

Were 'we' founded on Christianity? It will only come to be more and more controversial as time passes because the preservation of labels and their definitions are not being kept.

What makes you think their God and our God aren't the same God?

You seem to have difficulty with one simple question. Do you beleive this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles? Given what we know of our founding fathers and their beliefs, coupled with the wrtings of historical documents, this really should be a no-brainer.

Ummmm, though I am certainly not in cahoots with Huggy on purpose or with reason (yet).... How's about you... yes, Lonestar_Logic, define your God, then define your assumption of our Forefather's God. I'm not contrary as I love BOTH concepts. However, understanding both sides of this proverbial coin also forces me to recognize both understandings, both depths... that being what it is but only if there are indeed just two sides to the coin. How chaotic are we to get? Hmmm... How many ways can the preciously preserved writings be perceived? What is the key to true preservation? Perhaps anything and everything that keeps the human mind trained to one logic, one thought. Yet that would be what? Spiritual enslavement? By? Teachers? Preachers? Catalyst? There are worst things than abortion, obviously...

 

[AllieBaba]

What was the colonies founded on before we had our revolution?
And then all of a sudden these men changed overnight and founded this country on "Christian principles"?
Folks, the Founders were basically THE SAME PEOPLE the day after this great nation was founded as they were when they were colonialists. And guess what those colonialists called and refered to themselves before the founding of this nation? ENGLISH.
What set us apart from what we we were BEFORE the revolution and The Constitution was written until AFTER the revolution and the Constitution was written was not religion. It was THE LAW.
Tell me how the nation suddenly changed over night from what we were before the revolution and then all of a sudden became a nation founded on "Christian principles".

The colonies were part of a MONARCHY, Einstein.

Then, when we established the REPUBLIC we based it on CHRISTIAN principles of the inherent equality of all men.

At that time, people were divided over whether or not black slaves were men or even human, and women did not have rights.

However, based upon the CHRISTIAN tenets of the Constitution, eventually the country came around to incorporate women and blacks into the citizenry, and recognized they do indeed have the same rights as all men.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Gadawg73]

So God was influential in this country being founded on Christian principles such as slavery, smuggling, tax avoidance, high alcohol consumption, breeding with slaves and selling their own children into slavery, keeping women in their place and the other social mores of the day?
You folks are insane. This nation was not founded on Christian principle. It was founded by men that were Christian in a predominantly Christian land.
Fact is the inhabitants of this country at our conception were the most radical renegade wild men "Christians" of their day in the entire world.

 

[Iridescence]

Again with the un answerable question. In the sense that there is no god...the one in the imagination of the people of 1750 was the same imaginary one you believe in. Of course no one knows how crazy YOUR imagination is...so I must confine my comparison to all crazy beliefs in any god irrespective to how insane any ones concept of a god is..

Asking someone what they think is unanswerable? Maybe for your dumbass it would be.

Knowing that the majority of our Founding Fathers read from the same Bible as todays Christians do, then it's easy to conclude that we believed in the same God.

If you truly believe there is no God, then why do you put so much effort into debating religious issues?

Seems to me your trying to either 1) persuade the unpersuadable or 2) you're not very confident in your belief.

Ah..not so fast cowgirl! I have had success. I have converted several people from the darkness of Christianity to the light. Probably not entirely my doing but one of my successes was even a Catholic Priest. Granted it is hard work. The reward is small but we do what we can. I have never hit a hole in one in golf either but I still play the game.

In playing the Devil's Advocate here, seriously, in converting several from 'the darkness of Christianity'... how many of 'us' are assumed to be so blind as to the depth of evil in which we supposedly represent? I'm not vengeful, nor am I boastful, but as in love with some 'things' as I can come to be and have been, religion has always only had the powers over me that I have allowed (haha) however naive that may sound...

 

[Gadawg73]

What was the colonies founded on before we had our revolution?
And then all of a sudden these men changed overnight and founded this country on "Christian principles"?
Folks, the Founders were basically THE SAME PEOPLE the day after this great nation was founded as they were when they were colonialists. And guess what those colonialists called and refered to themselves before the founding of this nation? ENGLISH.
What set us apart from what we we were BEFORE the revolution and The Constitution was written until AFTER the revolution and the Constitution was written was not religion. It was THE LAW.
Tell me how the nation suddenly changed over night from what we were before the revolution and then all of a sudden became a nation founded on "Christian principles".

The colonies were part of a MONARCHY, Einstein.

Then, when we established the REPUBLIC we based it on CHRISTIAN principles of the inherent equality of all men.

At that time, people were divided over whether or not black slaves were men or even human, and women did not have rights.

However, based upon the CHRISTIAN tenets of the Constitution, eventually the country came around to incorporate women and blacks into the citizenry, and recognized they do indeed have the same rights as all men.

It's not rocket science.

"equality of all men"?
Allie forgets that the Founders owned slaves.
How is that equality of all men?
The Founders WERE THE SAME MEN before and after the revolution.
What Christian principles did they all of a sudden attain?
You have tried your equality of all men which was not initiated by those Founders which you claim founded this nation on "Christian principles".
"came around to incorporate women and blacks into the citizenry"
"Christian tenets of the Constitution" Hell, even Lonestar knows that the Constitution is a SECULAR document and religion has NO influence in it.
This is getting fun.

 

[AllieBaba]

So God was influential in this country being founded on Christian principles such as slavery, smuggling, tax avoidance, high alcohol consumption, breeding with slaves and selling their own children into slavery, keeping women in their place and the other social mores of the day?
You folks are insane. This nation was not founded on Christian principle. It was founded by men that were Christian in a predominantly Christian land.
Fact is the inhabitants of this country at our conception were the most radical renegade wild men "Christians" of their day in the entire world.

Logical fallacy, completely irrelevant and does not establish that the US wasn't founded on Christian principles.

Yes, it was founded on Christian principles. We know this because THE FOUNDING FATHERS SAID IT WAS, and since they founded the country, it's pretty much what we have to go on.

We know it because IT SAYS SO IN THE CONSTITUTION and other founding docs. Again, since those are the docs upon which our country was founded, that's what we have to go on.

Next.

 

[AllieBaba]

What it comes down to is this...the only way we can determine what principles the country was founded on is to reference the founding fathers, the Constitution, the Declaration, and correspondence we have access to from when the country was being structured.

According to those sources, which are the ONLY sources we have, the country was founded upon Christian principle. NOT religious principle. The ff made it very clear they would not use the government to establish a state religion, or interfere in the worship practices of citizens. But they also made it very clear that they were following CHRISTIAN principles and were trying to set the country up in accordance with those principles. They believed, said, and wrote that men's rights come directly from God, and that a republic could not protect those rights except that it looked to the strictures and blessings of God to do so.

Therefore, the US was certainly founded upon Christian principles. It's silly to insist that because everybody isn't Christian, the foundation of this government isn't firmly adhered to Christian principles. Whether or not people are Christians, or even GOOD Christians has nothing to do with it. The fact is, all the evidence is quite clear. We are founded on Christian principles.

Unless someone really wants to deny that the founding fathers SAID so.

 

[AllieBaba]

And "Yeah they said that and all our documents say that but they were just DUMB" doesn't work to prove the US was NOT founded on Christian principles. That's just juvenile and silly.

 

[Iridescence]

And "Yeah they said that and all our documents say that but they were just DUMB" doesn't work to prove the US was NOT founded on Christian principles. That's just juvenile and silly.

Quite to the contrary.... I have yet to say anyone is and/or was dumb... the forefathers obviously knew and covered up a great deal more than what we could even boast of today... Eh, or perhaps they didn't, yet then that would make them even more naive than some are today, which is plausible but not likely.

The forefathers brought over a system that was designed by someone other than the basic few 'remnants'. They didn't implement it immediately because there were obvious requirements and 'special interests'. For the love of all that be Holy, even if it seems like a conspiracy kind of thing... it is far more plausible than a multitude of spiritually blind ones. Eh... yet then spiritually did seem to take a bazaar turn at some point...

 

[AllieBaba]

And "Yeah they said that and all our documents say that but they were just DUMB" doesn't work to prove the US was NOT founded on Christian principles. That's just juvenile and silly.

Quite to the contrary.... I have yet to say anyone is and/or was dumb... the forefathers obviously knew and covered up a great deal more than what we could even boast of today... Eh, or perhaps they didn't, yet then that would make them even more naive than some are today, which is plausible but not likely.

The forefathers brought over a system that was designed by someone other than the basic few 'remnants'. They didn't implement it immediately because there were obvious requirements and 'special interests'. For the love of all that be Holy, even if it seems like a conspiracy kind of thing... it is far more plausible than a multitude of spiritually blind ones. Eh... yet then spiritually did seem to take a bazaar turn at some point...

I didn't say you said it. Huggy said it.

I don't know what you're talking about when you refer to the forefathers bringing over a system designed by someone other than the basic few "remnants". I have NO idea what you're talking about.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Again with the un answerable question. In the sense that there is no god...the one in the imagination of the people of 1750 was the same imaginary one you believe in. Of course no one knows how crazy YOUR imagination is...so I must confine my comparison to all crazy beliefs in any god irrespective to how insane any ones concept of a god is..

Asking someone what they think is unanswerable? Maybe for your dumbass it would be.

Knowing that the majority of our Founding Fathers read from the same Bible as todays Christians do, then it's easy to conclude that we believed in the same God.

If you truly believe there is no God, then why do you put so much effort into debating religious issues?

Seems to me your trying to either 1) persuade the unpersuadable or 2) you're not very confident in your belief.

Ah..not so fast cowgirl! I have had success. I have converted several people from the darkness of Christianity to the light. Probably not entirely my doing but one of my successes was even a Catholic Priest. Granted it is hard work. The reward is small but we do what we can. I have never hit a hole in one in golf either but I still play the game.

You can keep your homosexual fantasies to yourself.

Forgive me if I don't believe anything you say.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

What I have come to know is that the Founding Fathers' religions should be questioned and understood before the system(s) they put in place can be better defined. Apparently too few have done so. Personally, what has come to be known as Judeo-Christianity is what 'they' say the basics of the system are, but what Judeo-Christianity is becoming is not what it once was, either. This is not our ancestors world, for sure.

Our Founding Fathers were men of faith.

• Virtually all those involved in the founding enterprise were God-fearing men in the Christian sense; most were Calvinistic Protestants.
• The Founders were deeply influenced by a biblical view of man and government. With a sober understanding of the fallenness of man, they devised a system of limited authority and checks and balances.
• The Founders understood that fear of God, moral leadership, and a righteous citizenry were necessary for their great experiment to succeed.
• Therefore, they structured a political climate that was encouraging to Christianity and accommodating to religion, rather than hostile to it.
• Protestant Christianity was the prevailing religious view for the first 150 years of our history.

However...

• The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.
• They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation.

Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin.[14] However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[15]

Thanks for supporting my position.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

What was the colonies founded on before we had our revolution?
And then all of a sudden these men changed overnight and founded this country on "Christian principles"?
Folks, the Founders were basically THE SAME PEOPLE the day after this great nation was founded as they were when they were colonialists. And guess what those colonialists called and refered to themselves before the founding of this nation? ENGLISH.
What set us apart from what we we were BEFORE the revolution and The Constitution was written until AFTER the revolution and the Constitution was written was not religion. It was THE LAW.
Tell me how the nation suddenly changed over night from what we were before the revolution and then all of a sudden became a nation founded on "Christian principles".

Religion in the 13 colonies.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I stumble on the symbolism and the obvious difference(s) between what/who they had and had made their God vs the God of our 'up for grabs' [mis]interpreted bible of today. Yet, I am also more paleoconservative and fundamentalist than most others are. There were things at work then that allowed the strict structure and forced understanding of mainstream to be streamline... But it isn't so today. Because our ways have come to be more relaxed and our thoughts more fluid, be it evolution of the mind or else... What was said to be solid and sturdy structure is something that many recognize as not being so at all.

Were 'we' founded on Christianity? It will only come to be more and more controversial as time passes because the preservation of labels and their definitions are not being kept.

What makes you think their God and our God aren't the same God?

You seem to have difficulty with one simple question. Do you beleive this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles? Given what we know of our founding fathers and their beliefs, coupled with the wrtings of historical documents, this really should be a no-brainer.

Ummmm, though I am certainly not in cahoots with Huggy on purpose or with reason (yet).... How's about you... yes, Lonestar_Logic, define your God, then define your assumption of our Forefather's God. I'm not contrary as I love BOTH concepts. However, understanding both sides of this proverbial coin also forces me to recognize both understandings, both depths... that being what it is but only if there are indeed just two sides to the coin. How chaotic are we to get? Hmmm... How many ways can the preciously preserved writings be perceived? What is the key to true preservation? Perhaps anything and everything that keeps the human mind trained to one logic, one thought. Yet that would be what? Spiritual enslavement? By? Teachers? Preachers? Catalyst? There are worst things than abortion, obviously...

My comment on another post answered this.

"Knowing that the majority of our Founding Fathers read from the same Bible as todays Christians do, then it's easy to conclude that we believed in the same God"

If you can't give an answer to a very simple question, then just say so. No need for the psychobabble.