The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Sky Dancer]

According to the Constitution, which is the law of our land, you're wrong Allie. Christ isn't in the Declaration. We are not founded as a Christian nation, if we were, we'd be a Christian theocracy.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, I'm not wrong. The declaration is a founding document of this country as well.

And I don't know how you just disregard the fact that the founders SAID they were applying Christian principles to the structuring of the country.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Allie, I go by the Constitution, the law of the land. There is no God talk or Christianity in it.

We are the land of the free. That means religious freedom. Chiristianity is not particularly about religious freedom. It's been historically about missions and proselytizing. Converting others, not respecting their existing religions.

 

[Gadawg73]

No, I'm not wrong. The declaration is a founding document of this country as well.

And I don't know how you just disregard the fact that the founders SAID they were applying Christian principles to the structuring of the country.

Founders apply Christian principles. You said it and I agree.
The US government and THE LAW does not.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No, I'm not wrong. The declaration is a founding document of this country as well.

And I don't know how you just disregard the fact that the founders SAID they were applying Christian principles to the structuring of the country.

Founders apply Christian principles. You said it and I agree.
The US government and THE LAW does not.

I can live with that. The founders crafted the Constitution carefully and left out all God words intentionally to ensure our government would be secular.

 

[AllieBaba]

Who said they did?
It is still founded on Christian principles. As has been proven repeatedly. There's no question about it.

How do you explain away the comments of the founders, who SAID they were building a country on Christian principles?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Allie. Read the Consitution. No God or Christ in there.

The Founding Fathers were not religious men, and they fought hard to erect, in Thomas Jefferson's words, "a wall of separation between church and state." John Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans--the fundamentalists of their day--would "whip and crop, and pillory and roast." The historical epoch had afforded these men ample opportunity to observe the corruption to which established priesthoods were liable, as well as "the impious presumption of legislators and rulers," as Jefferson wrote, "civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time."

Jefferson thoroughly agreed with Franklin on the corruptions the teachings of Jesus had undergone. "The metaphysical abstractions of Athanasius, and the maniacal ravings of Calvin, tinctured plentifully with the foggy dreams of Plato, have so loaded [Christianity] with absurdities and incomprehensibilities" that it was almost impossible to recapture "its native simplicity and purity." Like Paine, Jefferson felt that the miracles claimed by the New Testament put an intolerable strain on credulity. "The day will come," he predicted (wrongly, so far), "when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." The Revelation of St. John he dismissed as "the ravings of a maniac."

The three accomplishments Jefferson was proudest of--those that he requested be put on his tombstone--were the founding of the University of Virginia and the authorship of the Declaration of Independence and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The latter was a truly radical document that would eventually influence the separation of church and state in the US Constitution; when it was passed by the Virginia legislature in 1786, Jefferson rejoiced that there was finally "freedom for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammeden, the Hindu and infidel of every denomination"--note his respect, still unusual today, for the sensibilities of the "infidel." The University of Virginia was notable among early-American seats of higher education in that it had no religious affiliation whatever. Jefferson even banned the teaching of theology at the school.

http://www.thenation.com/article/our-godless-constitution

 

[Newby]

You can say it all you like, and I'm sure it makes you feel better, but there is no proof that the US was founded on Christian principles. The evidence is not in the legal documents in which we found our government.

Sky, I suggest you go do some serious reading then, because if you had read letters and other associated documents written by the founders themselves while the country was being established, you would see how very wrong you are. It's a shame that our history is not being taught but is being covered up and buried to the point that you feel you can make this statement and feel that you are right.

People practice Christian principles.
Governments do not. Governments practice THE LAW. The Constitution is a secular document. NOT RELIGOUS IN ANY WAY.
You know it, I know it and everyone with a brain knows it.
This government DOES NOT believe in a particular religion. Governments in America ARE NOT RELIGOUS. The founders SET IT UP THAT WAY.
Again,you know that and if you refuse to admit it Iwill tell you again and again and again and again.
So how can our government "be founded on Christian principles" if they ARE NOT RELIGOUS?
Why are the facts so hard for you to understand?
Because YOU REFUSE to admit they are the facts.

And I didn't dispute any of that, so your comments are moot.

The road to founding the country as it was founded was absolutely influenced by the christian religious beliefs of the men who created the DOL and the constitution. The founders stated exactly that in personal letters and correspondance and other documents created as the process was unfolding, as shown by quotes taken from those letters and documents posted a page or two earlier. Really, you people need to educate yourself, all of these original documents and letters are still available in the National Archives in Washington, it's not something that you can dispute to anyone who has been there and seen them and read them.

 

[AllieBaba]

Allie, I go by the Constitution, the law of the land. There is no God talk or Christianity in it.

We are the land of the free. That means religious freedom. Chiristianity is not particularly about religious freedom. It's been historically about missions and proselytizing. Converting others, not respecting their existing religions.

Except the CONSTITUTION isn't what determines the principles upon which this country was founded.

The principles upon which this country was founded are the principles the founders considered while creating the structure.

WRONG PREMISE, Sky. That's what I keep telling you. You're not answering the right question, so of COURSE your answer is wrong.

 

[AllieBaba]

And they're the principles people still use today when considering things like freedom, liberty, human rights, btw.

 

[Newby]

You can say it all you like, and I'm sure it makes you feel better, but there is no proof that the US was founded on Christian principles. The evidence is not in the legal documents in which we found our government.

Sky, I suggest you go do some serious reading then, because if you had read letters and other associated documents written by the founders themselves while the country was being established, you would see how very wrong you are. It's a shame that our history is not being taught but is being covered up and buried to the point that you feel you can make this statement and feel that you are right.

What you can't get around is the Constitution is a secular document. God is nowhere in that document. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that America is not a Christian nation. The nation was intended to have a secular government so that we could have religious freedom. We were not founded as a CHRISTIAN nation. We are a plurality, a republic founded by the people, and for the people, not by God.

If we were none of us would enjoy the religious freedom we no have. Christianity would be the state religion.

You're stuck on the Constitution itself, and it was done exactly so that it would not have religious affiliation. That does not mean that their christian beliefs and their knowledge of the Bible did not influence how and why they did what they did. There are hundreds of letters and other documents in the national archives which proves that they absolutely relied on their beliefs to found this country. I don't know the exact number, but something like 2/3 or more of the founding fathers held seminary degrees, they were pastors. The very first act of the very first Congress at the very first session was to pray for several hours. It's documented in the national archives, look it up. The very first Bible printed in the United States and distributed was done so by the US Congress, also in the national archives, look it up. The men who founded this country were christians, and they used their backgrounds and influences to create the founding documents, they stated so in letters written to each other and to family members and the public in general, all available in the national archives. To continue to state that it's not so withou doing the research seems a bit hard headed to me.

 

[Newby]

No, I'm not wrong. The declaration is a founding document of this country as well.

And I don't know how you just disregard the fact that the founders SAID they were applying Christian principles to the structuring of the country.

Founders apply Christian principles. You said it and I agree.
The US government and THE LAW does not.

And it was designed that way BECAUSE of their christian principles, which is what Sky is denying. There is irrefutable evidence to show that what she is claiming is not true in the national archives.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm not giving up my religious freedom. I enjoy that freedom due to the secular government formed by the Constitution, a secular document. A Christian theocracy is not gonna happen in my lifetime. Gadawg is the only Christian that seems to understand why its important to separate church and state.

Christian principle is to render to Caesar that which is Caesars. Separation of church and state preserves religous freedom for all of us, not just Christians.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Church and state must be separated to ensure the citizens' civil liberties. That is why Christians and deists formed together to create a secular government informed by religious and ethical values. The first step was the banning a national church. The second step was the elimination of state churches. The third step, an ongoing process, is to keep church and state (not state and value) separated.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Church and state must be separated to ensure the citizens' civil liberties. That is why Christians and deists formed together to create a secular government informed by religious and ethical values. The first step was the banning a national church. The second step was the elimination of state churches. The third step, an ongoing process, is to keep church and state (not state and value) separated.

Some would like to undo the founders efforts to keep church and state separate.

 

[Newby]

Church and state must be separated to ensure the citizens' civil liberties. That is why Christians and deists formed together to create a secular government informed by religious and ethical values. The first step was the banning a national church. The second step was the elimination of state churches. The third step, an ongoing process, is to keep church and state (not state and value) separated.

Some would like to undo the founders efforts to keep church and state separate.

What's the percentage of citizens that wish to do this? You're making a mountain out of a molehill, and over exaggerating any fear that this is going to ever happen.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Christian dominationists are as evil in their motivation as the far rightists and the far leftists in America. These beliefs and lifestyles are devoted to removing the free will of the American citizen.

 

[AllieBaba]

That's asinine.

 

[JakeStarkey]

AllieBaba, as if you think you can reach out and touch me. You fool. Christian Dominationists are the religious scum of America, at the level of the murderous racists of the Aryan white churches. Take a hike, AB, and keep walking.

 

[bodecea]

No, I'm not wrong. The declaration is a founding document of this country as well.

And I don't know how you just disregard the fact that the founders SAID they were applying Christian principles to the structuring of the country.

A founding document yes. A basis for our government, no.