The secret, dirty cost of Obama's green power push

[Freewill]

The secret, dirty cost of Obama's green power push

The secret, dirty cost of Obama's green power push - Timesonline.com: Energy

I wonder how much hydrocarbons go into fertilizer. This mess was started by Bush, BTW. Should have put the money into natural gas conversion.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Obama took the heart out of America's fight for traditional alternative energy, such as solar, wind and wave power.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Better then the Blood and man hours used for Coal, oil and gas.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Obama took the heart out of America's fight for traditional alternative energy, such as solar, wind and wave power.

Really?

Wind has tripled under Obama from 25gw to 60+ gw
Solar is increasing at the fastest rate of all energy sources

fact

 

[Freewill]

Obama took the heart out of America's fight for traditional alternative energy, such as solar, wind and wave power.

How so?

 

[tinydancer]

Better then the Blood and man hours used for Coal, oil and gas.

What are you posting on?

Seriously here Matthew. I'm on hydro.

What are you posting on? I've done solar and wind and actually gone off the grid completely.

What did you eat on tonight as you lecture the world?

Did you cook it in an oven or did you use a wood stove? Wait a minute. How are you heating your house?

Are you using wood?

Are you in an apartment that relies on coal to fire up your electric?

Mr. I think I am a God of Energy Matthew tell us how you are saving the planet tonight before you freaking chastize us.

 

[tinydancer]

Latest stat I saw on bats was just so freaking unreal.

The death count. I just want to cry. Surely there is a way we can work this without so many dying.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Obama took the heart out of America's fight for traditional alternative energy, such as solar, wind and wave power.

Really?

Wind has tripled under Obama from 25gw to 60+ gw
Solar is increasing at the fastest rate of all energy sources

fact

Considering how much the GDP has grown during Obama's term, only a threefold increase is a pittance when at the same time, the technology to build traditional A&E has gotten so refined that they can design systems that would be extremely cheap, if they had the will to do it.

Solar is a whole different story. Arizona and Nevada have the land available for solar panels that could power the entire Southwestern U.S. But no, it's too ugly. It's too difficult. Just quit whining then about energy prices and oil independence.

 

[Freewill]

Obama took the heart out of America's fight for traditional alternative energy, such as solar, wind and wave power.

Really?

Wind has tripled under Obama from 25gw to 60+ gw
Solar is increasing at the fastest rate of all energy sources

fact

Considering how much the GDP has grown during Obama's term, only a threefold increase is a pittance when at the same time, the technology to build traditional A&E has gotten so refined that they can design systems that would be extremely cheap, if they had the will to do it.

Solar is a whole different story. Arizona and Nevada have the land available for solar panels that could power the entire Southwestern U.S. But no, it's too ugly. It's too difficult. Just quit whining then about energy prices and oil independence.

The truth is that there is a glut of energy right now at least in the North-East. Utilities are shutting coal stations on the pretext of environmental reasons but in fact they are happy to do so to get the price "where it should be." Obama was correct a utility will go bankrupt before they build a coal station. He also put a stop to Yucca Mountain so the cost of dry storage of spent fuel is passed onto the consumer. Besides that fact that the fuel need heavily guarded being the most toxic substance known to man. I just wonder what happens when the nuclear plants run out of life and the companies move on. Sure their are funds to provide for security but we have all seen that sort of thing go away. I believe Obama's shutting of Yucca mountain was the worse political move of his administration. He was bowing to Reid to get Obamacare passed, in my opinion. In so doing he put the whole country at risk.

 

[Stephanie]

Obama and his administration of radicals are not only raping us with new taxes, regulations and a brand NEW GOVERNMENT entitlement called, OfailCare you get to PAY FOR... but now DENYING us the use of our own lands in this country for our livelihoods and is wanting to force you to PAY higher prices for HIS VISIONS and his radical environmentalist and is bringing nothing but HURT on you..

How you people re-elected this evil person is beyond me...it's sick
[ame=http://youtu.be/UaPlI-B-lTY]Obama Hits Struggling Americans With Energy Rate Hikes By Bankrupting Coal Plants - YouTube[/ame]


[ame=http://youtu.be/ORlwQ739hcg]Obama Electricity Rates Would Necessarily Skyrocket - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Bern80]

The big picture it seems to me is tradeoffs. With many of these so called renewable energy sources we're really just trading one environmental problem for another. Probably the worst one is ethanol. We're literally subsidizing the destruction of wildlife habitat to grow fuel for cars.

I thought the whole idea of green energy was cleaner air and better environment for ALL living things. Not just humans.

 

[flacaltenn]

Obama took the heart out of America's fight for traditional alternative energy, such as solar, wind and wave power.

Really?

Wind has tripled under Obama from 25gw to 60+ gw
Solar is increasing at the fastest rate of all energy sources

fact

Considering how much the GDP has grown during Obama's term, only a threefold increase is a pittance when at the same time, the technology to build traditional A&E has gotten so refined that they can design systems that would be extremely cheap, if they had the will to do it.

Solar is a whole different story. Arizona and Nevada have the land available for solar panels that could power the entire Southwestern U.S. But no, it's too ugly. It's too difficult. Just quit whining then about energy prices and oil independence.

Solar alone has never even powered a single 7-11 store in Winslow Arizona.
The reason its the "fastest growing" energy generation in this country is that we've STOPPED completely on building RELIABLE backbone generation..

This has caught up with some Euro countries years ago. And NOW the PERIPHERAL costs of these sketchy "alternatives" is now catching up to them. Having to build out matching CONVENTIONAL generation to match renewables that then needs to sit idle because the govt MANDATES that the grids MUST CARRY renewables first. Who are the idiots who invest,build, and staff and maintain a REAL power plant under those conditions?

Just started a thread on how California finally realized that they will need a $BILL dollar build out of battery storage. Each of 30 or so is the size of football field and 20 ft high. Just to keep the CURRENT load of wind and solar from making the grid unstable.

("Renewables Now More Expensive in Cali")

Boy --- THAT sure looks like green, clean, and cheap energy to you eh?

 

[flacaltenn]

Really?

Wind has tripled under Obama from 25gw to 60+ gw
Solar is increasing at the fastest rate of all energy sources

fact

Considering how much the GDP has grown during Obama's term, only a threefold increase is a pittance when at the same time, the technology to build traditional A&E has gotten so refined that they can design systems that would be extremely cheap, if they had the will to do it.

Solar is a whole different story. Arizona and Nevada have the land available for solar panels that could power the entire Southwestern U.S. But no, it's too ugly. It's too difficult. Just quit whining then about energy prices and oil independence.

The truth is that there is a glut of energy right now at least in the North-East. Utilities are shutting coal stations on the pretext of environmental reasons but in fact they are happy to do so to get the price "where it should be." Obama was correct a utility will go bankrupt before they build a coal station. He also put a stop to Yucca Mountain so the cost of dry storage of spent fuel is passed onto the consumer. Besides that fact that the fuel need heavily guarded being the most toxic substance known to man. I just wonder what happens when the nuclear plants run out of life and the companies move on. Sure their are funds to provide for security but we have all seen that sort of thing go away. I believe Obama's shutting of Yucca mountain was the worse political move of his administration. He was bowing to Reid to get Obamacare passed, in my opinion. In so doing he put the whole country at risk.

The saddest part of the Yucca story is that THE FREAKIN GOVT needs it more than private nuke plant operators. The worst enviro disaster in the entire country is the leaking storage of NUCLEAR waste from the US Weapons programs. Sitting in Hanford and Savannah River and are RIGHT NOW leeching into the water supply.. The story that Yucca was just a benny for the nuke industry is phoney as hell. BY VOLUME -- the amount of nuclear waste RIGHT NOW being improperly stored and disposed is from the HUNDREDS of nuclear medicine wards in the nation's hospitals. They'll be disasters all right -- but NOT because of fuel rod storage from nuke plants.

 

[Freewill]

Considering how much the GDP has grown during Obama's term, only a threefold increase is a pittance when at the same time, the technology to build traditional A&E has gotten so refined that they can design systems that would be extremely cheap, if they had the will to do it.

Solar is a whole different story. Arizona and Nevada have the land available for solar panels that could power the entire Southwestern U.S. But no, it's too ugly. It's too difficult. Just quit whining then about energy prices and oil independence.

The truth is that there is a glut of energy right now at least in the North-East. Utilities are shutting coal stations on the pretext of environmental reasons but in fact they are happy to do so to get the price "where it should be." Obama was correct a utility will go bankrupt before they build a coal station. He also put a stop to Yucca Mountain so the cost of dry storage of spent fuel is passed onto the consumer. Besides that fact that the fuel need heavily guarded being the most toxic substance known to man. I just wonder what happens when the nuclear plants run out of life and the companies move on. Sure their are funds to provide for security but we have all seen that sort of thing go away. I believe Obama's shutting of Yucca mountain was the worse political move of his administration. He was bowing to Reid to get Obamacare passed, in my opinion. In so doing he put the whole country at risk.

The saddest part of the Yucca story is that THE FREAKIN GOVT needs it more than private nuke plant operators. The worst enviro disaster in the entire country is the leaking storage of NUCLEAR waste from the US Weapons programs. Sitting in Hanford and Savannah River and are RIGHT NOW leeching into the water supply.. The story that Yucca was just a benny for the nuke industry is phoney as hell. BY VOLUME -- the amount of nuclear waste RIGHT NOW being improperly stored and disposed is from the HUNDREDS of nuclear medicine wards in the nation's hospitals. They'll be disasters all right -- but NOT because of fuel rod storage from nuke plants.

True enough commercial nuclear fuel is pretty well contained. As you stated that is not necessarily true for all use of radionuclides. Because of Obama billions were wasted at Yucca mountain with nothing to show for it.

Not sure why Obama got a pass on this one. Considering what happened in Japan are we really that smart storing nuclear material on site? Especially on site near population centers? As I said this is one of the worse decisions Obama made if I were to impeach him for something this may be the reason.

GAO - Death of Yucca Mountain Caused by Political Maneuvering - NYTimes.com

GAO's study found that Energy Secretary Steven Chu's decision to terminate the Yucca Mountain repository program was made for policy reasons, not technical or safety reasons, and officials speaking for Chu in 2010 did not cite any technical concerns or safety issues related to the Yucca Mountain site.

 

[Old Rocks]

Ah yes, and here is an article from that far right wing rag called Mother Jones outlining the problems with ethenol. And guess what party in Congress will make sure nothing is done to stop the subsidies? Won't be the Dems.

Ethanol Subsidies: Not Gone, Just Hidden a Little Better | Mother Jones

A few years ago I called subsidies for corn ethanol "catastrophically idiotic." And why not? Corn ethanol, it turns out, is actively worse for the environment than even gasoline, farmers responded to the subsidies by reducing the amount of farmland used for food production, and this drove up the price of staple food worldwide. What's more, back when the subsidies were enacted corn farmers were already doing pretty well. We were shoveling $10 billion in ag welfare to a group of people who were already pretty rich.

In fact, ethanol subsidies are such obviously appalling policy that it's one of the rare areas that both liberals and conservatives agree about. In theory, anyway. But that's never mattered. After all, lots of corn is grown in Iowa, and every four years Iowa holds the first presidential caucuses in the nation. And that has long made ethanol subsidies everyone's favorite pander.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Really?

Wind has tripled under Obama from 25gw to 60+ gw
Solar is increasing at the fastest rate of all energy sources

fact

Considering how much the GDP has grown during Obama's term, only a threefold increase is a pittance when at the same time, the technology to build traditional A&E has gotten so refined that they can design systems that would be extremely cheap, if they had the will to do it.

Solar is a whole different story. Arizona and Nevada have the land available for solar panels that could power the entire Southwestern U.S. But no, it's too ugly. It's too difficult. Just quit whining then about energy prices and oil independence.

Solar alone has never even powered a single 7-11 store in Winslow Arizona.

If our country goes bankrupt and languishes for a long enough period of time, the federal government will take drastic measures. In that climate, the entire electrical grid will cease to function. We can barely balance the power flowing through it now during a relatively prosperous period, and for sure, in a prolonged Depression, there will very well be no fully active grid. Nuclear power will also slowly disappear in a deep economic crisis, because again, in good times, we cannot even build large dump sites for nuclear waste, and temporary storage facilities are beyond capacity.

That leaves us during the abovementioned Depression with only one good solution, because natural gas and coal will certainly not sustain the power needs of all 50 states: Solar power will have to be developed in massive projects across the sun-rich states. The greatest of those states with sun are of course, the ones with deserts.

It is not entirely unlikely that the feds will, through eminent domain, choose Nevada, Arizona and maybe, also New Mexico and pepper all the desert areas in those states with solar panels. That is approximately 2 million square miles of land. Do you think if that happened they will not deliver all the energy those panels can put out when plugged in?

 

[Bern80]

Ah yes, and here is an article from that far right wing rag called Mother Jones outlining the problems with ethenol. And guess what party in Congress will make sure nothing is done to stop the subsidies? Won't be the Dems.

Ethanol Subsidies: Not Gone, Just Hidden a Little Better | Mother Jones

A few years ago I called subsidies for corn ethanol "catastrophically idiotic." And why not? Corn ethanol, it turns out, is actively worse for the environment than even gasoline, farmers responded to the subsidies by reducing the amount of farmland used for food production, and this drove up the price of staple food worldwide. What's more, back when the subsidies were enacted corn farmers were already doing pretty well. We were shoveling $10 billion in ag welfare to a group of people who were already pretty rich.

In fact, ethanol subsidies are such obviously appalling policy that it's one of the rare areas that both liberals and conservatives agree about. In theory, anyway. But that's never mattered. After all, lots of corn is grown in Iowa, and every four years Iowa holds the first presidential caucuses in the nation. And that has long made ethanol subsidies everyone's favorite pander.

What's your point? That the net effect of ethanol production has been bad for the environment is undeniable, so pointing out that Republicans are unlikely to do anything about it means what exactly?

 

[flacaltenn]

Considering how much the GDP has grown during Obama's term, only a threefold increase is a pittance when at the same time, the technology to build traditional A&E has gotten so refined that they can design systems that would be extremely cheap, if they had the will to do it.

Solar is a whole different story. Arizona and Nevada have the land available for solar panels that could power the entire Southwestern U.S. But no, it's too ugly. It's too difficult. Just quit whining then about energy prices and oil independence.

Solar alone has never even powered a single 7-11 store in Winslow Arizona.

If our country goes bankrupt and languishes for a long enough period of time, the federal government will take drastic measures. In that climate, the entire electrical grid will cease to function. We can barely balance the power flowing through it now during a relatively prosperous period, and for sure, in a prolonged Depression, there will very well be no fully active grid. Nuclear power will also slowly disappear in a deep economic crisis, because again, in good times, we cannot even build large dump sites for nuclear waste, and temporary storage facilities are beyond capacity.

That leaves us during the abovementioned Depression with only one good solution, because natural gas and coal will certainly not sustain the power needs of all 50 states: Solar power will have to be developed in massive projects across the sun-rich states. The greatest of those states with sun are of course, the ones with deserts.

It is not entirely unlikely that the feds will, through eminent domain, choose Nevada, Arizona and maybe, also New Mexico and pepper all the desert areas in those states with solar panels. That is approximately 2 million square miles of land. Do you think if that happened they will not deliver all the energy those panels can put out when plugged in?

The typical summertime grid demand in the SouthWest is 80% of daytime peak at 10PM..
Don't let your eyes glaze over with FACTS.. Let's look at what that implies..

Will solar keep the 7-11 ice cream from melting? Not without an acre of toxic waste from a trailer full of batteries.. Will the folks in the S.W. forego airconditioning from 4 PM to 9AM? No they won't.. That's where the 80% comes from. (goes lower in the middle of the night -- maybe to 60 or 50%)

Can you get private investors to build the gas, nuke plants to make it thru the night if they have to IDLE those plants for 6 hours a day? NO..

So what is the maximum amount of solar energy that would BENEFIT grid generation? Well, it's that 20% peak during the middle of the day.. That's all Solar is... It's a PEAKER PLANT, NOT AN ALTERNATIVE generator..

All other generation runs normally throughout the day & night -- while solar is built out to handle the 20% daytime peak. Doesn't mean that could EXPAND generation capacity with solar alone does it? Problem with that solution is that you better NOT COUNT on solar to take that mid-day Peaking job full-time. Because should it RAIN THAT DAY --- Your BACKBONE fossil/nuke generation has GOT to have the capacity to handle 100% of the load anyway..

What have you gained? Really.... Except for reduced emissions for 4 hours on the sunny days? (the peak is really about 4 hours long)

 

[DGS49]

Ladies, there is quite a bit of mis-information floating around here about Yucca Mountain and spent fuel storage. The correct information is readily available.

For decades, nuclear electric power utilities have been paying (their ratepayers have been paying) a surcharge to the federal government to create a fund to build a spent fuel repository. Yucca mountain was developed and built with these funds. None of the cost came out of general revenues. While Yucca Mountain is more than adequate for the task, it is not the BEST solution, and local politicians, led by Harry Reid, convinced an ignorant public that it represented some sort of long term danger to the people of Nevada, and particularly Las Vegas. It was all bullshit, but the fact was that it was a mistake to develop it without any local input. So it has been mothballed. The money is wasted.

HOWEVER, there is another facility in New Mexico, called the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant ("WIPP"), that has enough capacity for all of the nuclear waste we could ever generate (particularly now, since Nuke has been effectively killed by Fukushima and Natural Gas). WIPP is in a giant solid, salt deposit that is totally impermeable to water or anything else. Water migrates at a rate of inches per thousand years. It is deep enough to be totally impervious even to nuclear weapons. Furthermore, the local population has NO OBJECTION to it being converted to a national waste depository. All that remains is for Congress to get its head out of its ass and move on it.

Currently, spent fuel ("nuclear waste") is stored at each nuclear power plant. After an initial cooling off period, it is sealed into steel-reinforced concrete casks, which are as safe as humanly possible. At least one of them has been dropped from airplane altitude and suffered no damage when it struck the ground. The next move is to have these casks moved from the individual plants to their "final resting place," and I gather that Congress has no appetite right now to fight the inevitable battles with America's housewives who will go into nuclear-powered hissy fits when they hear that one of these casks might be trucked within a thousand miles of their kitchen windows.

It will be completely safe, but this is, after all, the United Fucking States of America, and any idiot with time to waste and a bullhorn can bring us collectively to our knees.

One might also keep in the back of one's mind the fact that nuclear "waste" from power plants CAN be re-used FOREVER (we have the technology to re-process it), but all of our Presidents from Jimmy Carter on down have agreed that we don't want to build a re-processing plant, because, in effect, we don't want anyone else to do it and we don't want to be in a position of saying, "we can, but you guys can't." Because the process can also be used to develop weapons grade materials.


So storage of nucear waste is NOT a problem that we need to worry about. It's all politics at this point. It is paid for; we have the technology to transport and store it (or even reprocess it for future use), but we don't want to be inconvenienced by fighting about it. Right now.

I actually tried to go to Yucca Mountain last year, but was kept out by a fence. I peed on the fence to satisfy myself that it wasn't electrified. Strange what boredom will cause you to do.

 

[westwall]

Obama took the heart out of America's fight for traditional alternative energy, such as solar, wind and wave power.

Really?

Wind has tripled under Obama from 25gw to 60+ gw
Solar is increasing at the fastest rate of all energy sources

fact

Considering how much the GDP has grown during Obama's term, only a threefold increase is a pittance when at the same time, the technology to build traditional A&E has gotten so refined that they can design systems that would be extremely cheap, if they had the will to do it.

Solar is a whole different story. Arizona and Nevada have the land available for solar panels that could power the entire Southwestern U.S. But no, it's too ugly. It's too difficult. Just quit whining then about energy prices and oil independence.

You guys complain about a mine that for the most part is underground and wish to cover the world with this crap? What do you think the effect to the critters living underneath these monstrosities will be?