The Sand Trap

[Bullypulpit]

<center><h1><a href=http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050628-7.html> "...defeat them abroad before they attack us at home..."</a></h1></center>

Thursdays bombings in London gave the lie to that premise. Rather than acting as "flypaper", Iraq has become a training ground for terrorists which is second to none. It exceeds the wildest wet dreams that Osama bin Laden had for training operations in Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

In a <a href=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7460-2005Jan13.html>report</a> from January 2005, the National Intelligence Council stated, "...a training ground, a recruitment ground, the opportunity for enhancing technical skills...". While no firm numbers on Iraqi insurgents killed are available, it seems likly that the casualties are doing little more than culling the less capable members and giving rise to more highly trained, experienced, motivated and capable terrorist operatives than have been seen in recent memory. These operatives, particularly the foreign nationals fighting alongside Iraqi nationals, are then able to exfiltrate from Iraq and carry the skills they have acquired there around the world.

To think that we will "...defeat them abroad before they attack us at home..." is at best, pollyanish wishful thinking. At worst it is a gross understatement of the threat to both this nation and the world at large. Let us hope our leaders outgrow such fatal foolishness before we pay the price on our shores...again.

 

[-Cp]

<center><h1><a href=http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050628-7.html> "...defeat them abroad before they attack us at home..."</a></h1></center>

Thursdays bombings in London gave the lie to that premise. Rather than acting as "flypaper", Iraq has become a training ground for terrorists which is second to none. It exceeds the wildest wet dreams that Osama bin Laden had for training operations in Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

In a <a href=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7460-2005Jan13.html>report</a> from January 2005, the National Intelligence Council stated, "...a training ground, a recruitment ground, the opportunity for enhancing technical skills...". While no firm numbers on Iraqi insurgents killed are available, it seems likly that the casualties are doing little more than culling the less capable members and giving rise to more highly trained, experienced, motivated and capable terrorist operatives than have been seen in recent memory. These operatives, particularly the foreign nationals fighting alongside Iraqi nationals, are then able to exfiltrate from Iraq and carry the skills they have acquired there around the world.

To think that we will "...defeat them abroad before they attack us at home..." is at best, pollyanish wishful thinking. At worst it is a gross understatement of the threat to both this nation and the world at large. Let us hope our leaders outgrow such fatal foolishness before we pay the price on our shores...again.

Once again, the ignorance - no, in this case stupidity - of folks like you on the left rears its ugly head once again....

Umm.... you backed up the statement of "...defeat them abroad before they attack us at home..." by stating the FACT that we ARE fighting Terrorists IN IRAQ and NOT over here you idiot...

That's the whole point - and in your blind hatered of this President you can't see it...

How many terrorist attacks have happened on our soil since 9/11?

 

[dilloduck]

Do we have any recuitment #s for terrorists BEFORE 9/11 ??

 

[MissileMan]

<center><h1><a href=http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050628-7.html> "...defeat them abroad before they attack us at home..."</a></h1></center>

Thursdays bombings in London gave the lie to that premise. Rather than acting as "flypaper", Iraq has become a training ground for terrorists which is second to none. It exceeds the wildest wet dreams that Osama bin Laden had for training operations in Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

In a <a href=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7460-2005Jan13.html>report</a> from January 2005, the National Intelligence Council stated, "...a training ground, a recruitment ground, the opportunity for enhancing technical skills...". While no firm numbers on Iraqi insurgents killed are available, it seems likly that the casualties are doing little more than culling the less capable members and giving rise to more highly trained, experienced, motivated and capable terrorist operatives than have been seen in recent memory. These operatives, particularly the foreign nationals fighting alongside Iraqi nationals, are then able to exfiltrate from Iraq and carry the skills they have acquired there around the world.

To think that we will "...defeat them abroad before they attack us at home..." is at best, pollyanish wishful thinking. At worst it is a gross understatement of the threat to both this nation and the world at large. Let us hope our leaders outgrow such fatal foolishness before we pay the price on our shores...again.

While possible, it has yet to be determined if any of these bomb planters have ever been to Iraq. I think your "failed strategy" accusation is a bit premature.

 

[HorhayAtAMD]

I watched a show about this last night by the CBC called "War without Borders" that spoke to the reasons behind these terrorists, their advantages, the war on Iraq, and how that specifically pertained to Europe. I really enjoyed most of it but one thing that struck me was the belief striking in Iraq would simply cause the muslim population to rise up and strike and therefore make matters worse. Basically it boiled down to "don't piss off the muslims". I'll say two things about that. First, it was ironic that the guy saying this was one of the "scholars" (I believe that was the label they used) behind the muslim headscarf ban in schools. Talk about pissing off the muslims! Second, not one person had a single alternate strategy.

Was going into Iraq the right thing to do? I personally believed (and still do) that Iraq probably had little to do with supporting terrorism. Saddam is a very moderate muslim and didn't really sympathize with the whole religious fundamentalist ideology. More importantly though, he strikes me as a control freak and doesn't seem to me to be the type of guy who would want to share any power with anybody else. I believe, if anything, he was afraid that the extremists would cause his population to rise up against him and replace him with a more religious leader. For those reasons, I think that the anti-war movement is right when they said that Iraq itself was not a great terrorist threat.

However, I have to thank USMB for convincing me of one thing. The war on Iraq has taken away one of the terrorist's greatest advantages: the ability to hide until the time is right to strike. It has brought about a sense of urgency and that sense of urgency causes people to make mistakes. They will try harder to recruit people which makes them vulnerable to moles. They are travelling to Iraq where they become available targets. The documentary spoke last night about the extremists seeing moderate muslims as being as big an enemy as anyone else and more than willing to kill them if they won't convert. We hear about this every day in Iraq. As time goes on and more moderate muslims are murdered, we will hopefully see more and more anger in the muslim world AGAINST this fundamentalism. Once that happens, the rest of the world should be able to take a much more "hands off" approach and let the muslim community take care of its own extremist minority.

Another amazing thing I saw last night which seems so clear but never mentioned is that giving in to terrorist demands does not work (duh). Months after Spain withdrew its armies from Iraq, the Spanish arrested 8 people who were planning more attacks in Spain. Link

In the end, was going into Iraq the perfect plan? I don't know. What I do know is that doing nothing was the wrong plan and no one in the world has come up with anything better. The world tried appeasement in WWII and all it did was give the Nazis time to grow and strike when they were ready. Why not force your enemy to strike on your terms, rather than theirs?

 

[dilloduck]

While no firm numbers on Iraqi insurgents killed are available, it seems likly that the casualties are doing little more than culling the less capable members and giving rise to more highly trained, experienced, motivated and capable terrorist operatives than have been seen in recent memory. These operatives, particularly the foreign nationals fighting alongside Iraqi nationals, are then able to exfiltrate from Iraq and carry the skills they have acquired there around the world.

What kind of assinine logic is this? Killing less trained terrorists gives rise to a higher quality terrorist? Hell, they're the only ones left!
This entire region has been intolerant of any other religion for centuries except for rare exceptions. Now they are even intolerant of the existence of foreign business men on thier soil yet somehow thier bigotry and racism is tolerated by the left.

The expectation of tolerance by westerners that a Muslim might have is presumptuous at best. They are wise enough however to know how to push the expectation of tolerence to the point where they live in large western communities and are more than happy to accept the rights, privileges and protection while it lasts.

If Westerners and Christians completely vacated the region, would terrorism cease? I would love to hear from anyone who thinks it would.

 

[Bullypulpit]

While possible, it has yet to be determined if any of these bomb planters have ever been to Iraq. I think your "failed strategy" accusation is a bit premature.

Then, what do you call London...? And they were home grown.

 

[Annie]

Then, what do you call London...? And they were home grown.

Bully, right now we don't know exactly what has gone down. From what I've heard the police are saying the are 'all dead.' Sorry, but for sure the planners are not.

They all seem to be British born Pakistanis, according to the police. Time will tell. What I haven't seen is whether or not any of them have been in jail? Did they belong to the same mosque? What was preached there? Britain has some serious problems, they are still not willing to address, same as US.

 

[Bullypulpit]

What kind of assinine logic is this? Killing less trained terrorists gives rise to a higher quality terrorist? Hell, they're the only ones left!
This entire region has been intolerant of any other religion for centuries except for rare exceptions. Now they are even intolerant of the existence of foreign business men on thier soil yet somehow thier bigotry and racism is tolerated by the left.

The expectation of tolerance by westerners that a Muslim might have is presumptuous at best. They are wise enough however to know how to push the expectation of tolerence to the point where they live in large western communities and are more than happy to accept the rights, privileges and protection while it lasts.

If Westerners and Christians completely vacated the region, would terrorism cease? I would love to hear from anyone who thinks it would.

Not familiar with the concept of "survival of the fittest"? Hmmm, I've always thought better of you than that.

As for Muslim tolerance, I know several Ethiopian, Pakistani and Arab muslims. Their disgust with those who would use their religion to front their own agendas is universal.

Would terrorism cease if westerners and Christians vacated the the region? In a word, no. So long as the root causes of terrorism are not dealt with, there will always be terrorists.

 

[Mr. P]

I think it will happen here in the US again, and in France, Germany and Italy too, before the world says,
"enough" and wipes these religious MORONS out. It's a matter of time. Sad but true.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I think it will happen here in the US again, and in France, Germany and Italy too, before the world says,
"enough" and wipes these religious MORONS out. It's a matter of time. Sad but true.

If it happens here in the US, you can kiss the Constitution, that so many here pay lip service to, goodbye. Such an event will be all the excuse this administration needs to suspend the Constitution.

 

[dilloduck]

If it happens here in the US, you can kiss the Constitution, that so many here pay lip service to, goodbye. Such an event will be all the excuse this administration needs to suspend the Constitution.

Not familiar with the concept of "survival of the fittest"? Hmmm, I've always thought better of you than that.

If you survive to get more training I guess you will be a better trained terrorist--hard not to be!

I will welcome the suspension of the right to practice Islam in the US. It's a cult bent on destroying us.

 

[Mr. P]

If it happens here in the US, you can kiss the Constitution, that so many here pay lip service to, goodbye. Such an event will be all the excuse this administration needs to suspend the Constitution.

I don't think so.