The Roman exile of the biblical Jews... fact or yet another lie?

[Challenger]

I have been spending quite a bit of time researching this.

Really? In light of the content I've shared in post 15, I find that hard to believe, but maybe you have and it was merely time not well spent. Effort and rigor seems what was missing from your use of time.

Equally, posting articles relating to specific expulsions from the city of Rome and various laws from that well known liberal, tolerant, Emperor Theodosius in the 4th century and the laws codfied under Justinian in the 6th century, have no relevence to the alleged Roman creation of the Jewish Exile/diaspora from the province of Judea/Palestina, which was the whole point of the OP. I'm impressed you actually cited sources, pity they had nothing to do with proving/disproving the OP.

 

[Challenger]

Josephus's estimate of 90,000 is almost certainly an exagerated figure. Most historians agree that only a few hundred, mostly the ringleaders of the revolt were brought to Rome to do jail time.

Defeated "Ringleaders" brought to Rome, rarely did "jail time"; most of them were ritually humiliated then executed in an imaginative and extremely painful way.

 

[montelatici]

Josephus's estimate of 90,000 is almost certainly an exagerated figure. Most historians agree that only a few hundred, mostly the ringleaders of the revolt were brought to Rome to do jail time.

Defeated "Ringleaders" brought to Rome, rarely did "jail time"; most of them were ritually humiliated then executed in an imaginative and extremely painful way.

I had recently read this:

"The Carcer Tullianum (Tullianum Prison in Latin) is notoriously known as the squalid underground dungeon where the Romans would lock up enemy leaders, including Simon Bar Giora, one of the architects of the Great Revolt of 66-70 C.E. ....."

Archaeologists reveal secrets of Roman prison that held both Christian saints and Jewish rebels

 

[ProudVeteran76]

I hope we can have a serious discussion here for once. I have been spending quite a bit of time researching this. From what I can tell, this event either never happened or there simply are no historians who have been able to show that this was a real event in history.

If any of you can provide proof that this event actually occurred, not only would your posts hold more weight, but also we could begin to discuss this issue from a factual standpoint instead of what we seem to have on every thread here where the hasbara crew simply assumes this as fact and then moves on to claim that what they are doing to the Muslims and Christians is what was done to them a couple 1000 of years ago.

If you want to chime in here, then please stay away form hasbara sites and post links only to credible historians.... no wikipedia, no jewish virtual library, etc..

Thanks in advance for any help.

Who is he to dictate which sites to go to?
Another thread from the same Bigoted Racist Jew Hater who denied the Holocaust. Consider the source

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I hope we can have a serious discussion here for once. I have been spending quite a bit of time researching this. From what I can tell, this event either never happened or there simply are no historians who have been able to show that this was a real event in history.

If any of you can provide proof that this event actually occurred, not only would your posts hold more weight, but also we could begin to discuss this issue from a factual standpoint instead of what we seem to have on every thread here where the hasbara crew simply assumes this as fact and then moves on to claim that what they are doing to the Muslims and Christians is what was done to them a couple 1000 of years ago.

If you want to chime in here, then please stay away form hasbara sites and post links only to credible historians.... no wikipedia, no jewish virtual library, etc..

Thanks in advance for any help.

Who is he to dictate which sites to go to?
Another thread from the same Bigoted Racist Jew Hater who denied the Holocaust. Consider the source

And get this...this guy actually claims to be Jewish, if you can believe that.

 

[ProudVeteran76]

I hope we can have a serious discussion here for once. I have been spending quite a bit of time researching this. From what I can tell, this event either never happened or there simply are no historians who have been able to show that this was a real event in history.

If any of you can provide proof that this event actually occurred, not only would your posts hold more weight, but also we could begin to discuss this issue from a factual standpoint instead of what we seem to have on every thread here where the hasbara crew simply assumes this as fact and then moves on to claim that what they are doing to the Muslims and Christians is what was done to them a couple 1000 of years ago.

If you want to chime in here, then please stay away form hasbara sites and post links only to credible historians.... no wikipedia, no jewish virtual library, etc..

Thanks in advance for any help.

Who is he to dictate which sites to go to?
Another thread from the same Bigoted Racist Jew Hater who denied the Holocaust. Consider the source

And get this...this guy actually claims to be Jewish, if you can believe that.

Hitler

I hope we can have a serious discussion here for once. I have been spending quite a bit of time researching this. From what I can tell, this event either never happened or there simply are no historians who have been able to show that this was a real event in history.

If any of you can provide proof that this event actually occurred, not only would your posts hold more weight, but also we could begin to discuss this issue from a factual standpoint instead of what we seem to have on every thread here where the hasbara crew simply assumes this as fact and then moves on to claim that what they are doing to the Muslims and Christians is what was done to them a couple 1000 of years ago.

If you want to chime in here, then please stay away form hasbara sites and post links only to credible historians.... no wikipedia, no jewish virtual library, etc..

Thanks in advance for any help.

Who is he to dictate which sites to go to?
Another thread from the same Bigoted Racist Jew Hater who denied the Holocaust. Consider the source

And get this...this guy actually claims to be Jewish, if you can believe that.

Hitler's own mother was Jewish yet he was filled with Hate, bigotry and racism. The same goes for this piece of Racist filth.

 

[Challenger]

Josephus's estimate of 90,000 is almost certainly an exagerated figure. Most historians agree that only a few hundred, mostly the ringleaders of the revolt were brought to Rome to do jail time.

Defeated "Ringleaders" brought to Rome, rarely did "jail time"; most of them were ritually humiliated then executed in an imaginative and extremely painful way.

I had recently read this:

"The Carcer Tullianum (Tullianum Prison in Latin) is notoriously known as the squalid underground dungeon where the Romans would lock up enemy leaders, including Simon Bar Giora, one of the architects of the Great Revolt of 66-70 C.E. ....."

Archaeologists reveal secrets of Roman prison that held both Christian saints and Jewish rebels

Oh, the Tullianum, I can't access the article but I know of the place. Ok, thanks.

 

[Challenger]

Who is he to dictate which sites to go to?
Another thread from the same Bigoted Racist Jew Hater who denied the Holocaust. Consider the source

And get this...this guy actually claims to be Jewish, if you can believe that.

Hitler's own mother was Jewish yet he was filled with Hate, bigotry and racism. The same goes for this piece of Racist filth.

Hey Louie, you know that when all they can do is hurl abuse at you, they've got nothing and you've won.

 

[louie888]

Hey Louie, you know that when all they can do is hurl abuse at you, they've got nothing and you've won.

I know and when I created this thread I knew that they would have nothing. I knew this because IT NEVER HAPPENED!

So everyone should be aware when they throw out the crap about Jews returning to their homeland which they were expelled from that it is a fake argument they only use to make the most gullible believe that they have some legitimate right to steal peoples homes and murder the indigenous people of that land.

 

[rylah]

Hey Louie, you know that when all they can do is hurl abuse at you, they've got nothing and you've won.

I know and when I created this thread I knew that they would have nothing. I knew this because IT NEVER HAPPENED!

So everyone should be aware when they throw out the crap about Jews returning to their homeland which they were expelled from that it is a fake argument they only use to make the most gullible believe that they have some legitimate right to steal peoples homes and murder the indigenous people of that land.

Exile in Your terms and exile in terms of the Jews are different.

Being ruled by a foreign ruler in the land of Israel is exile.
Being mascaraed en mass in the land of Israel is exile.
Having to convert in order to be left alive is exile.

If You knew anything about Jewish thought, You'd know that the present situation in Jerusalem and in the diaspora is still viewed as the exile of Ishmael, the Arab. Jews in Israel are still in exile. They're being evicted for political agendas. Banned from the heritage sites 'for security reasons'. Their identity in the diaspora being attacked because of Arab refugees into Europe and USA.

If You think a war on Jews in their land and forced conversion into a Greco-Roman way of life isn't an exile , You might be surprised, but the whole of Jewish thought views the exile of that specific land as exactly that.This is where our whole heritage comes from, much before the Roman exile.

 

[louie888]

Then the whole of Jewish thought on exile is from brainwashing and there is no evidence of the biblical diaspora. Try to stay on topic.

 

[rylah]

Then the whole of Jewish thought on exile is from brainwashing and there is no evidence of the biblical diaspora. Try to stay on topic.

There's no evidence of wars against Jews?
There's no evidence of laws against Jews in their land?
There's no evidence of killing Messianic Jews?
There's no evidence of Hellenistic and Roman forced conversions?

 

[louie888]

Then the whole of Jewish thought on exile is from brainwashing and there is no evidence of the biblical diaspora. Try to stay on topic.

There's no evidence of wars against Jews?
There's no evidence of laws against Jews in their land?
There's no evidence of killing Messianic Jews?
There's no evidence of Hellenistic and Roman forced conversions?

Please at least red the OP before doing this, or do you only wish to derail from...
The Roman exile of the biblical Jews... fact or yet another lie?

 

[louie888]

So, four pages in and still nothing that reflects this as historical fact.

Pretty awkward.

 

[rylah]

So it depends on what you mean by "exile". It's relatively clear that some people were displaced. Josephus references 90,000 people being brought to Rome after the Great Jewish Revolt. And during the war it's exceedingly likely that at least somepeople fled the conflict to more peaceful areas. There are references to some Sicarii escaping to Egypt, for example. No one bothered to figure out how many, but some people were definitely displaced.

There wasn't an exile in the total sense, since Jews were still allowed to live in Judea. That's not really disputed by anyone's narrative--there were enough Jews in Judea for another revolt in 135, and Jewish texts were still being written, mostly in the Galilee, even after 135.

But what is clear is that the community began a substantial decline after 70. Gradually the religious centers, where big-time books were written, moves to Babylonia, which had already had a Jewish community for centuries.

So at least some Jews were forcibly displaced, and it's likely a number more fled the conflict. That goes for both 70 and 135. This wasn't the beginning of the diaspora, since there were substantial communities of Jews living elsewhere from earlier. In fact, the majority of Jews probably migrated voluntarily, rather than being forced out, though forcible expulsion did occur1 . But many Jews were forcibly removed as slaves in large numbers, both after the revolt in 70 and in 1352 .

1. Gruen, Erich S. "Diaspora--Jews Amidst Greeks and Romans"
2. Smallwood, Mary E. "The Jews under Roman Rule". One interesting tidbit from this book is that after the revolt in 135, the market was flooded with Jewish slaves, such that they had no more value than a horse.

 

[rylah]

This is what Cassius Dio wrote on the Bar Kohba revolt:

[69.14.1] 50 of their most important outposts and 985 of their most famous villages were razed to the ground. 580,000 men were slain in the various raids and battles, and the number of those that perished by famine, disease and fire was past finding out.

[69.14.2] Thus nearly the whole of Judaea was made desolate, a result of which the people had had forewarning before the war. For the tomb of Solomon, which the Jews regard as an object of veneration, fell to pieces of itself and collapsed, and many wolves and hyenas rushed howling into their cities.

[69.14.3] Many Romans, moreover, perished in this war. Therefore Hadrian, in writing to the Senate, did not employ the opening phrase commonly affected by the emperors, "If you and your children are in health, it is well; I and the legions are in health."

Cassius Dio on Bar Kochba - Livius

 

[montelatici]

Most Jews, like the Samaritans and Pagans converted to Christianity by the end of the 4th century, , they did not go anywhere.

 

[rylah]

Most Jews, like the Samaritans and Pagans converted to Christianity by the end of the 4th century, , they did not go anywhere.

In 484 there was a Samaritan revolt.
Montelatici You just have to learn to live with the idea that the Greco-Roman project to erase the Jews through forced conversion has failed.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Most Jews, like the Samaritans and Pagans converted to Christianity by the end of the 4th century, , they did not go anywhere.

Link? Or are just supposed to take your word for it? rylah brought down various historical documents which prove otherwise.

 

[montelatici]

Most Jews, like the Samaritans and Pagans converted to Christianity by the end of the 4th century, , they did not go anywhere.

Link? Or are just supposed to take your word for it? rylah brought down various historical documents which prove otherwise.

From a Zionist site:

Native Population almost wholly descended from Jews who had been forcibly converted to Christianity,

Native Population almost wholly descended from Jews who had been forcibly converted