The right side of atheism

[dblack]

The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on.

Frank Zappa

The essence of Christianity is in the NT. Zappa was wrong.

Frank Zappa was a brilliant musician, and he makes a humorous point. Why any one would find it threatening surprises me. There is no right or wrong in opinion. There is just opinion. Zappa offers his, you offer yours. Frank Zappa was a very spiritual man. I don't think you understand him at all.

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that I don't understand your view either.

Daniel Quinn has an interesting take on the whole Garden of Eden story - basically that it was a cautionary tale told originally by those pushed aside by the new agriculturally based civilizations.

It's worth noting that it wasn't the quest for knowledge in general that did them in, but the knowledge of good and evil. It was taking up the capacity to judge themselves and others that set them up for misery and deprived them of the innocence of paradise.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The essence of Christianity is in the NT. Zappa was wrong.

Frank Zappa was a brilliant musician, and he makes a humorous point. Why any one would find it threatening surprises me. There is no right or wrong in opinion. There is just opinion. Zappa offers his, you offer yours. Frank Zappa was a very spiritual man. I don't think you understand him at all.

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that I don't understand your view either.

Sky Dancer,
All the Adam and Eve stuff is OT, long before Christ walked the earth and Christianity developed, NT.
I think that was Lizzie's point (Lizzie can correct me if I am wrong).

Thank you, Mountain Man and Lizzie--

Sometimes I have to step back from the post and read it a couple of times. I see your point that Zappa was commenting on an OT story and connecting Christianity, (which is NT) to it.

The reason I missed your point is that Christianity collapses if you take away the story of original sin. There would be no need of a redeemer- a Christ, to appear on the earth. Christianity arose out of OT teachings that man is flawed, (due to his disobedience) and needs to be "saved".

 

[lizzie]

Sometimes I have to step back from the post and read it a couple of times. I see your point that Zappa was commenting on an OT story and connecting Christianity, (which is NT) to it.

The reason I missed your point is that Christianity collapses if you take away the story of original sin. There would be no need of a redeemer- a Christ, to appear on the earth. Christianity arose out of OT teachings that man is flawed, (due to his disobedience) and needs to be "saved".

I think that the term "saved" is pretty much a NT concept as named such, but I don't think it's an unfamiliar concept at all, as world religions go. Most of the religions that I am familiar with have "do's and don't's" lists, and some religions believe that one is automatically "saved" if one is born into the right religion and follows its laws. Even the Eastern religions have a concept of salvation, although it seems to be expressed more in terms of a soul's evolution toward a state of enlightenment.

 

[Colin]

In this country we have 'freedom of religion', not 'freedom from religion'. This means I support your right to be offended by the sight of a crucifix or some other religious symbol. Don't like public displays of religion, don't look.

It always amazes me how many atheists celebrate Christmas though. Always makes me laugh

The same could be said of Christians given that Christmas was formerly a pagan festival known as Saturnalia.

No, it wasn't. Would it shock you to know that more than one holiday can exist at the same time of year without being the same holiday? Christmas has been a celebration of Christ's birth since its creation by Pope Julius I in the 4th century. It didn't exist before that. The only relation it has to the Roman festival of Saturnalia is that Pope Julius I deliberately set its date (because the actual birthdate of Christ is unknown) in order to replace and abolish any residual celebration of Saturnalia, or winter solstice festivals, for that matter. Replacing something is not the same as having been that something, understand?

Yes it was. The fact that the Christmas origin has pagan roots is well documented.

In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor of history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

Origin of Christmas | The Real Story of Christmas | How it Began

most of the customs and traditions of Christmas actually pre-date the birth of Jesus, and many of them are downright deceptive in their meaning and origin. Here are a few examples:

The date of December 25th probably originated with the ancient "birthday" of the son-god, Mithra, a pagan deity whose religious influence became widespread in the Roman Empire during the first few centuries A.D. Mithra was related to the Semitic sun-god, Shamash, and his worship spread throughout Asia to Europe where he was called Deus Sol Invictus Mithras. Rome was well-known for absorbing the pagan religions and rituals of its widespread empire. As such, Rome converted this pagan legacy to a celebration of the god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god during the winter solstice period. The winter holiday became known as Saturnalia and began the week prior to December 25th. The festival was characterized by gift-giving, feasting, singing and downright debauchery, as the priests of Saturn carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession throughout the Roman temples.

Variations of this pagan holiday flourished throughout the first few centuries after Jesus Christ, but it probably wasn't until 336 AD that Emperor Constantine officially converted this pagan tradition into the "Christian" holiday of Christmas.

Origin Of Christmas

 

[Cecilie1200]

The same could be said of Christians given that Christmas was formerly a pagan festival known as Saturnalia.

No, it wasn't. Would it shock you to know that more than one holiday can exist at the same time of year without being the same holiday? Christmas has been a celebration of Christ's birth since its creation by Pope Julius I in the 4th century. It didn't exist before that. The only relation it has to the Roman festival of Saturnalia is that Pope Julius I deliberately set its date (because the actual birthdate of Christ is unknown) in order to replace and abolish any residual celebration of Saturnalia, or winter solstice festivals, for that matter. Replacing something is not the same as having been that something, understand?

Well there seems to be a difference of opinion. That might be how the christians see it as working, but the pagans see it much different. Maybe it was because of the chritian persecution of the pagans that gives them a different opinion. When a large group of people try to wipe you out if you don't convert, you tend to think differently.
From our point of view it goes like this. As the Christians expanded their empire they encountered a large Pagan population and in their zeal to convert them they tried to completely destroy their culture. They failed. Not only did the Christians place all of their holidays on pagan festival days in hopes of assimulation into christianity, they did many other things. One of these was the placement of churches and monastaries on Pagan holy sites, that Pagans would later be forced to worship in. Not only would they be forced into worship, they were forced to build the church as well. If you go to Europe and look at the oldest churches you will see pagan symbols and mythological creatures in the stained glass. The Pagans put them in there so they could follow christian law (to save their lives) yet follow their own faith and worship in those buildings.

I'm sure you aren't taught that in Christian schools, I know, I had 12 years of Catholic schooling. History according to the Catholic Church and Christians in general are usually two totaly different things. There is what actually happened and there is the Christian interpetation of what happened. The latter usually makes the Christians look as good as possible and this is what they stick with.

WHAT pagans? You see any ancient Romans dancin' around here, Sparkles? I don't think so. And what a bunch of neo-primitive wannabes decide to pick up on from some half-assed TV special or whatever and celebrate interests me not at all.

And yeah, placing churches over the holy sites of previous religions would be how one REPLACES a religion, which I believe is what I said before. "Christmas was dated in order to REPLACE Saturnalia; it isn't a continuation of Saturnalia." Did you not get that previously?

I find it fascinating how repeating and expanding on what I said is supposed to somehow contradict what I said. English must not be your first language.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The same could be said of Christians given that Christmas was formerly a pagan festival known as Saturnalia.

No, it wasn't. Would it shock you to know that more than one holiday can exist at the same time of year without being the same holiday? Christmas has been a celebration of Christ's birth since its creation by Pope Julius I in the 4th century. It didn't exist before that. The only relation it has to the Roman festival of Saturnalia is that Pope Julius I deliberately set its date (because the actual birthdate of Christ is unknown) in order to replace and abolish any residual celebration of Saturnalia, or winter solstice festivals, for that matter. Replacing something is not the same as having been that something, understand?

Yes it was. The fact that the Christmas origin has pagan roots is well documented.

In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor of history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.” The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

Origin of Christmas | The Real Story of Christmas | How it Began

most of the customs and traditions of Christmas actually pre-date the birth of Jesus, and many of them are downright deceptive in their meaning and origin. Here are a few examples:

The date of December 25th probably originated with the ancient "birthday" of the son-god, Mithra, a pagan deity whose religious influence became widespread in the Roman Empire during the first few centuries A.D. Mithra was related to the Semitic sun-god, Shamash, and his worship spread throughout Asia to Europe where he was called Deus Sol Invictus Mithras. Rome was well-known for absorbing the pagan religions and rituals of its widespread empire. As such, Rome converted this pagan legacy to a celebration of the god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god during the winter solstice period. The winter holiday became known as Saturnalia and began the week prior to December 25th. The festival was characterized by gift-giving, feasting, singing and downright debauchery, as the priests of Saturn carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession throughout the Roman temples.

Variations of this pagan holiday flourished throughout the first few centuries after Jesus Christ, but it probably wasn't until 336 AD that Emperor Constantine officially converted this pagan tradition into the "Christian" holiday of Christmas.

Origin Of Christmas

Amazingly enough, "I can find an Internet site that says what I want to believe!" is not the definition of "well-documented".

 

[Colin]

No, it wasn't. Would it shock you to know that more than one holiday can exist at the same time of year without being the same holiday? Christmas has been a celebration of Christ's birth since its creation by Pope Julius I in the 4th century. It didn't exist before that. The only relation it has to the Roman festival of Saturnalia is that Pope Julius I deliberately set its date (because the actual birthdate of Christ is unknown) in order to replace and abolish any residual celebration of Saturnalia, or winter solstice festivals, for that matter. Replacing something is not the same as having been that something, understand?

Yes it was. The fact that the Christmas origin has pagan roots is well documented.

most of the customs and traditions of Christmas actually pre-date the birth of Jesus, and many of them are downright deceptive in their meaning and origin. Here are a few examples:

The date of December 25th probably originated with the ancient "birthday" of the son-god, Mithra, a pagan deity whose religious influence became widespread in the Roman Empire during the first few centuries A.D. Mithra was related to the Semitic sun-god, Shamash, and his worship spread throughout Asia to Europe where he was called Deus Sol Invictus Mithras. Rome was well-known for absorbing the pagan religions and rituals of its widespread empire. As such, Rome converted this pagan legacy to a celebration of the god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god during the winter solstice period. The winter holiday became known as Saturnalia and began the week prior to December 25th. The festival was characterized by gift-giving, feasting, singing and downright debauchery, as the priests of Saturn carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession throughout the Roman temples.

Variations of this pagan holiday flourished throughout the first few centuries after Jesus Christ, but it probably wasn't until 336 AD that Emperor Constantine officially converted this pagan tradition into the "Christian" holiday of Christmas.

Origin Of Christmas

Amazingly enough, "I can find an Internet site that says what I want to believe!" is not the definition of "well-documented".

That's ok.Believe what you want. It doesn't change the fact that Christmas has it's roots in a pagan festival.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yes it was. The fact that the Christmas origin has pagan roots is well documented.

Amazingly enough, "I can find an Internet site that says what I want to believe!" is not the definition of "well-documented".

That's ok.Believe what you want. It doesn't change the fact that Christmas has it's roots in a pagan festival.

Run along, Sparky. I like my facts to actually be facts, and I have little interest in half-assed attacks from whole asses.

 

[Colin]

Amazingly enough, "I can find an Internet site that says what I want to believe!" is not the definition of "well-documented".

That's ok.Believe what you want. It doesn't change the fact that Christmas has it's roots in a pagan festival.

Run along, Sparky. I like my facts to actually be facts, and I have little interest in half-assed attacks from whole asses.

Surprise, surprise. Nothing to add so resort to personal attack. How pathetic.

 

[alan1]

Sometimes I have to step back from the post and read it a couple of times. I see your point that Zappa was commenting on an OT story and connecting Christianity, (which is NT) to it.

The reason I missed your point is that Christianity collapses if you take away the story of original sin. There would be no need of a redeemer- a Christ, to appear on the earth. Christianity arose out of OT teachings that man is flawed, (due to his disobedience) and needs to be "saved".

I think that the term "saved" is pretty much a NT concept as named such, but I don't think it's an unfamiliar concept at all, as world religions go. Most of the religions that I am familiar with have "do's and don't's" lists, and some religions believe that one is automatically "saved" if one is born into the right religion and follows its laws. Even the Eastern religions have a concept of salvation, although it seems to be expressed more in terms of a soul's evolution toward a state of enlightenment.

I'm no great philosopher nor am I educated in religion.
Just a simple foolish internet prophet.
The "do's and don'ts list" seem to be almost exactly the same in all religion.
The main difference was the person delivering the message and/or how they delivered it.
I see most religions having the roots that go back to the Sumerians.
An evolution of religion in a manner of speaking.

 

[Foxfyre]

Among my friends, neighbors, relatives, colleagues, and casual acquaintances are Atheists, agnostics, non religious, Christians, practicing Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, and Hindu. (Perhaps some other flavors as well that I am unaware of.) Among all are confirmed leftists/liberals and committed conservatives, libertarians, and everything in between.

Some of these are extremely passionate, verbal, and obnoxiously demonstrative in their beliefs. (They are sometimes omitted from some gatherings because of that or requested to cool it if they are included.) Most are of the live and let live variety that are welcome in all reasonable crowds. We celebrate each others' traditions and special occasions and thoroughly enjoy and accept each other as we are.

As a Christian myself, I don't know of a soul who has ever been scared into heaven or led to Christ by somebody telling him/her that s/he was going to hell or was doomed because the last days were at hand. I cringe when I think of how many have probably been turned off of religion by the ridiculous promises made to them and/or by the unkind and/or unpleasant way in which Christ was introduced to them or by being hit with religious dogma without building the foundation that should support it.

And I can't think of any reason that people would try to convince a Christian (or any other advocate of a different religion) that his/her faith was based on nothing but superstition, was bogus, was ignorant or foolish unless those people had an unkind, hateful, or cruel core within them or desperately needed their own beliefs confirmed.

So I say Merry Christmas and Happy Easter to everybody unless they ask me not to in which case I try to give them a wide berth. I can't see how anybody should be offended by my heartfelt expression of cheer that arises from my personal faith. Nor am I offended when a friend wishes me Happy Hannukuh or some other religious greeting and I return that same greeting with heartfelt good cheer.

The non religious are some of the most pleasant people to be around. They enjoy EVERYBODY's religious celebrations and festivals without any concern whatsoever about the beliefs underpinning those activities. And they never judge anybody.

Live and let live. It's a good philosophy to embrace.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What doesn't make sense to me, is to claim that any one group of human beings are superior to another on the basis of whether they believe in God or not, or whether they are a democrat, republican, tea partier, OWS protestor, or conservative. It makes no sense to me, to tell people they are "awful" human beings because they espouse "liberalism" as a philsophy. I may be called a liberal, but my philosophy comes from Buddhism, not liberalism. My decisions politically arise out of heartfelt beliefs and concerns for others. I don't buy that liberalism is a philosophy, not do I accept that the label liberal describes what kind of human being a person is.

I like all the holidays, Christmas, Hannukah, New Years, Solstice, Thanksgiving, Native American day, Losar etc etc etc. I also, have my own way of relating to each of these. Christmas for me, is Chinese food and a movie, hanging out with friends, telling jokes and stories. Losar, is a serious religious holiday for me. It's Tibetan Buddhist New Year. It means retreat, spiritual practice, confession, purification, aspiration, ritual, special foods and practices.

The rest depends on circumstance. My wife and I used to keep all the traditional holidays with our former husband, his mother, and his partner before they both died of AIDS. We've both lost our parents, and many dear friends. Neither of us live near relatives. For many years, the way we got through the sadness of all those losses was to avoid Christmas and New Years by going to silent Buddhist Meditation retreats. Now, we're taking some of the holidays back. I've even taken back the name of God. I'm embracing it, and owning it and relating to it in my own way. I'm taking back Jesus, I'm dropping Christianity as a topic of political debate. When my Jewish friend tells me her daughters are dying to experience Christmas and she dare not offend her family by indulging them, my wife and I happily offered Christmas for the girls and they loved it. We did the tree, the presents, the choral performances in cathedrals, the light shows, the story of Christmas, all the traditional foods, everything. Nothing like seeing Christmas through the eyes of twin seven year old girls even when it's not your own holy day.

What I don't want to do, is forget when I'm arguing politics with some one that the person is human, just like I am, and wants to be happy, just like I do. I want to remember that all year through. There is no need to demonize someone or some group because we don't like their words about politics, or we feel hurt or angry.

We are all human beings, with flaws and frailities. It is a rare person that persists in seeing only the good in another, regardless of what they display when they're vulnerable.

 

[alan1]

Among my friends, neighbors, relatives, colleagues, and casual acquaintances are Atheists, agnostics, non religious, Christians, practicing Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, and Hindu. (Perhaps some other flavors as well that I am unaware of.) Among all are confirmed leftists/liberals and committed conservatives, libertarians, and everything in between.

Some of these are extremely passionate, verbal, and obnoxiously demonstrative in their beliefs. (They are sometimes omitted from some gatherings because of that or requested to cool it if they are included.) Most are of the live and let live variety that are welcome in all reasonable crowds. We celebrate each others' traditions and special occasions and thoroughly enjoy and accept each other as we are.

As a Christian myself, I don't know of a soul who has ever been scared into heaven or led to Christ by somebody telling him/her that s/he was going to hell or was doomed because the last days were at hand. I cringe when I think of how many have probably been turned off of religion by the ridiculous promises made to them and/or by the unkind and/or unpleasant way in which Christ was introduced to them or by being hit with religious dogma without building the foundation that should support it.

And I can't think of any reason that people would try to convince a Christian (or any other advocate of a different religion) that his/her faith was based on nothing but superstition, was bogus, was ignorant or foolish unless those people had an unkind, hateful, or cruel core within them or desperately needed their own beliefs confirmed.

So I say Merry Christmas and Happy Easter to everybody unless they ask me not to in which case I try to give them a wide berth. I can't see how anybody should be offended by my heartfelt expression of cheer that arises from my personal faith. Nor am I offended when a friend wishes me Happy Hannukuh or some other religious greeting and I return that same greeting with heartfelt good cheer.

The non religious are some of the most pleasant people to be around. They enjoy EVERYBODY's religious celebrations and festivals without any concern whatsoever about the beliefs underpinning those activities. And they never judge anybody.

Live and let live. It's a good philosophy to embrace.

We must have some of the same friends.

Religion isn't confined to or by a political party, despite what some may pretend.

I have done that. I don't anymore.
I can't either. When my religious friends offer their cheer to me, I accept it for what it is, their honesty, their love and their gift to me.

My choice to not participate in your (generic your, not you specifically) religion is not a rejection of the person.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Thank you for the rep, Mountain Man, and for seeing me as a human being. Thanks for being so kind and generous to others.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Which is more offensive? An atheist saying I have no reason for believing in god, or a Muslim showing respect for your religion and then worshiping another god?

Dustin Rgnonti

 

[Sky Dancer]

If all the Christians who have called other Christians “not really a Christian” were to vanish, there would be no Christians left.

Anonymous

 

[Sky Dancer]

The bible is not my book nor Christianity my religion, I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.

Abraham Lincoln

 

[alan1]

What doesn't make sense to me, is to claim that any one group of human beings are superior to another on the basis of whether they believe in God or not, or whether they are a democrat, republican, tea partier, OWS protestor, or conservative. It makes no sense to me, to tell people they are "awful" human beings because they espouse "liberalism" as a philsophy. I may be called a liberal, but my philosophy comes from Buddhism, not liberalism. My decisions politically arise out of heartfelt beliefs and concerns for others. I don't buy that liberalism is a philosophy, not do I accept that the label liberal describes what kind of human being a person is.

I like all the holidays, Christmas, Hannukah, New Years, Solstice, Thanksgiving, Native American day, Losar etc etc etc. I also, have my own way of relating to each of these. Christmas for me, is Chinese food and a movie, hanging out with friends, telling jokes and stories. Losar, is a serious religious holiday for me. It's Tibetan Buddhist New Year. It means retreat, spiritual practice, confession, purification, aspiration, ritual, special foods and practices.

The rest depends on circumstance. My wife and I used to keep all the traditional holidays with our former husband, his mother, and his partner before they both died of AIDS. We've both lost our parents, and many dear friends. Neither of us live near relatives. For many years, the way we got through the sadness of all those losses was to avoid Christmas and New Years by going to silent Buddhist Meditation retreats. Now, we're taking some of the holidays back. I've even taken back the name of God. I'm embracing it, and owning it and relating to it in my own way. I'm taking back Jesus, I'm dropping Christianity as a topic of political debate. When my Jewish friend tells me her daughters are dying to experience Christmas and she dare not offend her family by indulging them, my wife and I happily offered Christmas for the girls and they loved it. We did the tree, the presents, the choral performances in cathedrals, the light shows, the story of Christmas, all the traditional foods, everything. Nothing like seeing Christmas through the eyes of twin seven year old girls even when it's not your own holy day.

What I don't want to do, is forget when I'm arguing politics with some one that the person is human, just like I am, and wants to be happy, just like I do. I want to remember that all year through. There is no need to demonize someone or some group because we don't like their words about politics, or we feel hurt or angry.

We are all human beings, with flaws and frailities. It is a rare person that persists in seeing only the good in another, regardless of what they display when they're vulnerable.

Sky Dancer,
I think you and I are politically at different ends of the spectrum. That doesn't mean we can't have an honest conversation about politics.
Buddhism is a religion that is foreign to most raised in the western world. Most of us are familiar with the Abrahamic faiths, but introduce eastern religious thought and we (of the western world) tend to fall short in knowledge.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What doesn't make sense to me, is to claim that any one group of human beings are superior to another on the basis of whether they believe in God or not, or whether they are a democrat, republican, tea partier, OWS protestor, or conservative. It makes no sense to me, to tell people they are "awful" human beings because they espouse "liberalism" as a philsophy. I may be called a liberal, but my philosophy comes from Buddhism, not liberalism. My decisions politically arise out of heartfelt beliefs and concerns for others. I don't buy that liberalism is a philosophy, not do I accept that the label liberal describes what kind of human being a person is.

I like all the holidays, Christmas, Hannukah, New Years, Solstice, Thanksgiving, Native American day, Losar etc etc etc. I also, have my own way of relating to each of these. Christmas for me, is Chinese food and a movie, hanging out with friends, telling jokes and stories. Losar, is a serious religious holiday for me. It's Tibetan Buddhist New Year. It means retreat, spiritual practice, confession, purification, aspiration, ritual, special foods and practices.

The rest depends on circumstance. My wife and I used to keep all the traditional holidays with our former husband, his mother, and his partner before they both died of AIDS. We've both lost our parents, and many dear friends. Neither of us live near relatives. For many years, the way we got through the sadness of all those losses was to avoid Christmas and New Years by going to silent Buddhist Meditation retreats. Now, we're taking some of the holidays back. I've even taken back the name of God. I'm embracing it, and owning it and relating to it in my own way. I'm taking back Jesus, I'm dropping Christianity as a topic of political debate. When my Jewish friend tells me her daughters are dying to experience Christmas and she dare not offend her family by indulging them, my wife and I happily offered Christmas for the girls and they loved it. We did the tree, the presents, the choral performances in cathedrals, the light shows, the story of Christmas, all the traditional foods, everything. Nothing like seeing Christmas through the eyes of twin seven year old girls even when it's not your own holy day.

What I don't want to do, is forget when I'm arguing politics with some one that the person is human, just like I am, and wants to be happy, just like I do. I want to remember that all year through. There is no need to demonize someone or some group because we don't like their words about politics, or we feel hurt or angry.

We are all human beings, with flaws and frailities. It is a rare person that persists in seeing only the good in another, regardless of what they display when they're vulnerable.

Sky Dancer,
I think you and I are politically at different ends of the spectrum. That doesn't mean we can't have an honest conversation about politics.
Buddhism is a religion that is foreign to most raised in the western world. Most of us are familiar with the Abrahamic faiths, but introduce eastern religious thought and we (of the western world) tend to fall short in knowledge.

I like having an honest discussion of politics with people I disagree with. We often become close friends, not really moving in our views, but at least understanding each other better. Sometimes we even find common ground, accidentally. We cannot do that if we hold tight to stereotypes about each other.

Buddhist concepts, like karma, have worked their way into popular American life, but they often don't mean the same thing to a Buddhist that they do to a non-buddhist.

 

[alan1]

I like having an honest discussion of politics with people I disagree with. We often become close friends, not really moving in our views, but at least understanding each other better. Sometimes we even find common ground, accidentally. We cannot do that if we hold tight to stereotypes about each other.

Buddhist concepts, like karma, have worked their way into popular American life, but they often don't mean the same thing to a Buddhist that they do to a non-buddhist.

That they have.
Me a Christian and a Jew were talking about karma just the other day.
It has the makings of a good joke.
But we were just talking.

--edited my messed up quote--