The Regressive Left and Islam -- What is happening here?

[Tehon]

Can you give an example of a liberal response to the OP that would be acceptable to you?

The first one who shows a willingness to understand what liberalism is all about and what Islam is all about gets the cookie.

I can tell you that liberalism isn't about denouncing a religion in general which is what seems to be the only acceptable answer to you. I was hoping you could elaborate, maybe drop some of your John Rawls knowledge on me.

 

[flacaltenn]

there are millions of "people of faith" on the political left.

they're the ones smart enough to understand where to draw that constitutional line with religion.

Exactly .... At one time I counted about 38 Pro-Life Dems in Congress. So why is it that you folks feel so free to constantly MOCK and abuse people of faith? Are those "smart ones" so partisan as to ignore the slights? OR are the social issues of abortion and other things you frame as "religious issues" more secular that you just want to admit? Do you realize how central religion is to "YOUR" minorities of blacks and hispanics? You know --- the ones you think you OWN...

You get more partisan by the minute. Bunch of rwnj talking point nonsense.

'Cept -- I'm certainly not right-wing. Will out-Liberal you on MANY issues. I haven't been a partisan since I left Grad School. Worked for 3rd party ballot and process all my life. Even conferred personally with many Commie Green Party members to get this done.

It's just REMARKABLE how clear the air is from my perspective. You should try it..

It is easier for people of very low intelligence to just trot out "rwnj" and be done with it.

Thinking is just too damned difficult for some.

Don't you mean when people of very low intelligence just trot out "Commie Green Party"?

THEY are honest and admit it. Unlike some parties that hide their Socialistic/Communist tendencies with euphemisms until some brave Independent like Bernie comes around. It's in their platform. Does not say Communism -- but it is a kissing cousin to it. I LOVE those folks. They have principles. Like Bernie. Spent a lot of time with them when I was active in Libertarian affairs in California.

In case you missed the nuance. One of your "clan" just conceded that mocking an entire religion is justified --- IF some of their members are dumb. So what I would like to know is -- what is different about that from other folks indicting an ENTIRE religion because some of their members are violent Jihadis??

Do anyone AGREE that's OK??

Still ROFLing over the assertion that all the "smart" Christians are Democrats..

This is a wonderful thing to watch and funny as hell -- if the future of the world didn't hang in the balance.

 

[Tehon]

I mock people of faith. All of them. Especially when they try to mess with people. Some of the brightest people I know are people of faith. That doesn't mean that the dumb ones can't be mocked.

So you just stipulated that you would mock an ENTIRE RELIGION --- because "some" of them are dumb?

Great move.. Nice to know "the rules". Very informative thread. It's like therapy time for partisans here. We should lock in all the participants, buy more couches and get this shit settled honestly...

I mock all religions. I sometimes mock people who are religious...when they deserve it. What don't you understand?

Really? You've never mocked me. Oh --- I'm not religious. I just SUPPORT religious people.. When's the last time you mocked a crystal worshipper or a Wiccan? OH -- they are LIKELY to be Democrats I bet...

That's like the third recent post of yours that I read and found to be really weird. You having a few cocktails this afternoon?

He said he mocks every religion equally (at least if they have some dumb people in them).. Wouldn't crystal worshipers be more mockable than Christians? Just curious. Not high..

Yes I think you are high, or have lousy reading comprehension. Try again, slowly this time.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Can you give an example of a liberal response to the OP that would be acceptable to you?

The first one who shows a willingness to understand what liberalism is all about and what Islam is all about gets the cookie.

I can tell you that liberalism isn't about denouncing a religion in general which is what seems to be the only acceptable answer to you. I was hoping you could elaborate, maybe drop some of your John Rawls knowledge on me.

Liberalism involves maximizing social justice for all concerned.

Women's second-class status is codified into the very fabric of Islam.

Since you do not know anything about either Islam or liberalism, you are just offering the same mindless platitudes of the others.

 

[flacaltenn]

So you just stipulated that you would mock an ENTIRE RELIGION --- because "some" of them are dumb?

Great move.. Nice to know "the rules". Very informative thread. It's like therapy time for partisans here. We should lock in all the participants, buy more couches and get this shit settled honestly...

I mock all religions. I sometimes mock people who are religious...when they deserve it. What don't you understand?

Really? You've never mocked me. Oh --- I'm not religious. I just SUPPORT religious people.. When's the last time you mocked a crystal worshipper or a Wiccan? OH -- they are LIKELY to be Democrats I bet...

That's like the third recent post of yours that I read and found to be really weird. You having a few cocktails this afternoon?

He said he mocks every religion equally (at least if they have some dumb people in them).. Wouldn't crystal worshipers be more mockable than Christians? Just curious. Not high..

More mockable? No. Of equal mocking value, yes.

For me ALL religions are equal. They all have good parts and bad parts and it's not usually the religion that's "bad" it's the fan clubs that get scary.

In the case of Islam -- it's the proximity to political power in their native cultures that gives the impressions that AUTHORITY stems from religion. When any religion exists in Democratic secular cultures --- they are largely innoculated from radicalization or the need to violently impose their views on others.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

many with multiple accounts, full of sound and fury signifying absolutely nothing.

Ravi -- is that you?

 

[Ravi]

Can you give an example of a liberal response to the OP that would be acceptable to you?

The first one who shows a willingness to understand what liberalism is all about and what Islam is all about gets the cookie.

I can tell you that liberalism isn't about denouncing a religion in general which is what seems to be the only acceptable answer to you. I was hoping you could elaborate, maybe drop some of your John Rawls knowledge on me.

Liberalism involves maximizing social justice for all concerned.

Women's second-class status is codified into the very fabric of Islam.

Since you do not know anything about either Islam or liberalism, you are just offering the same mindless platitudes of the others.

It is in Christianity as well.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Can you give an example of a liberal response to the OP that would be acceptable to you?

The first one who shows a willingness to understand what liberalism is all about and what Islam is all about gets the cookie.

I can tell you that liberalism isn't about denouncing a religion in general which is what seems to be the only acceptable answer to you. I was hoping you could elaborate, maybe drop some of your John Rawls knowledge on me.

Liberalism involves maximizing social justice for all concerned.

Women's second-class status is codified into the very fabric of Islam.

Since you do not know anything about either Islam or liberalism, you are just offering the same mindless platitudes of the others.

Do you think someone here believes that Islam is somehow a liberal religion? Is that where your failure stems from?

 

[Tehon]

Can you give an example of a liberal response to the OP that would be acceptable to you?

The first one who shows a willingness to understand what liberalism is all about and what Islam is all about gets the cookie.

I can tell you that liberalism isn't about denouncing a religion in general which is what seems to be the only acceptable answer to you. I was hoping you could elaborate, maybe drop some of your John Rawls knowledge on me.

Liberalism involves maximizing social justice for all concerned.

Women's second-class status is codified into the very fabric of Islam.

Since you do not know anything about either Islam or liberalism, you are just offering the same mindless platitudes of the others.

The question remains, what is the best way to maximize social justice for all?

I'm sure you are familiar with Rawls method of reflective equilibrium. Is alienating Muslims the best way to achieve the maximization of social justice? What effect does culture have on adherence to religious dogma and how should that instruct us in our quest? What about our own foreign policy in regards to Saudi Arabia, are we sending mixed messages when we support the most brutal of regimes on the planet?

It seems to me you are the one offering the platitude.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Can you give an example of a liberal response to the OP that would be acceptable to you?

The first one who shows a willingness to understand what liberalism is all about and what Islam is all about gets the cookie.

I can tell you that liberalism isn't about denouncing a religion in general which is what seems to be the only acceptable answer to you. I was hoping you could elaborate, maybe drop some of your John Rawls knowledge on me.

Liberalism involves maximizing social justice for all concerned.

Women's second-class status is codified into the very fabric of Islam.

Since you do not know anything about either Islam or liberalism, you are just offering the same mindless platitudes of the others.

The question remains, what is the best way to maximize social justice for all?

I'm sure you are familiar with Rawls method of reflective equilibrium. Is alienating Muslims the best way to achieve the maximization of social justice? What effect does culture have on adherence to religious dogma and how should that instruct us in our quest? What about our own foreign policy in regards to Saudi Arabia, are we sending mixed messages when we support the most brutal of regimes on the planet?

It seems to me you are the one offering the platitude.

Saudi Arabia is part of the problem.

As to help maximize social justice, for starters, we should stop looking the other way at misogyny and call it for what it is. Working directly with Muslim feminist groups would be a good star, too.

The worst thing is to continue to indulge in all this name calling you reserve only for those who reject the ultra-conservatism of Islam. You don't call people names when Christianity is involved, do you? Islam is magnitudes more conservative, yet all the little knees jerk so fast with people trying to be the first to call somebody a bigot-racist-Islamophobe that you can't even discuss the problem.

The problem is how to liberalize people, and if they receive a steady diet of vitriol from the Imams, that won't happen.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Exactly .... At one time I counted about 38 Pro-Life Dems in Congress. So why is it that you folks feel so free to constantly MOCK and abuse people of faith? Are those "smart ones" so partisan as to ignore the slights? OR are the social issues of abortion and other things you frame as "religious issues" more secular that you just want to admit? Do you realize how central religion is to "YOUR" minorities of blacks and hispanics? You know --- the ones you think you OWN...

You get more partisan by the minute. Bunch of rwnj talking point nonsense.

'Cept -- I'm certainly not right-wing. Will out-Liberal you on MANY issues. I haven't been a partisan since I left Grad School. Worked for 3rd party ballot and process all my life. Even conferred personally with many Commie Green Party members to get this done.

It's just REMARKABLE how clear the air is from my perspective. You should try it..

It is easier for people of very low intelligence to just trot out "rwnj" and be done with it.

Thinking is just too damned difficult for some.

Don't you mean when people of very low intelligence just trot out "Commie Green Party"?

THEY are honest and admit it. Unlike some parties that hide their Socialistic/Communist tendencies with euphemisms until some brave Independent like Bernie comes around. It's in their platform. Does not say Communism -- but it is a kissing cousin to it. I LOVE those folks. They have principles. Like Bernie. Spent a lot of time with them when I was active in Libertarian affairs in California.

In case you missed the nuance. One of your "clan" just conceded that mocking an entire religion is justified --- IF some of their members are dumb. So what I would like to know is -- what is different about that from other folks indicting an ENTIRE religion because some of their members are violent Jihadis??

Do anyone AGREE that's OK??

Still ROFLing over the assertion that all the "smart" Christians are Democrats..

This is a wonderful thing to watch and funny as hell -- if the future of the world didn't hang in the balance.

you really are a dumbass.

most egregious dumbassery highlighted in your dumbass post.

dumbass

 

[flacaltenn]

You get more partisan by the minute. Bunch of rwnj talking point nonsense.

'Cept -- I'm certainly not right-wing. Will out-Liberal you on MANY issues. I haven't been a partisan since I left Grad School. Worked for 3rd party ballot and process all my life. Even conferred personally with many Commie Green Party members to get this done.

It's just REMARKABLE how clear the air is from my perspective. You should try it..

It is easier for people of very low intelligence to just trot out "rwnj" and be done with it.

Thinking is just too damned difficult for some.

Don't you mean when people of very low intelligence just trot out "Commie Green Party"?

THEY are honest and admit it. Unlike some parties that hide their Socialistic/Communist tendencies with euphemisms until some brave Independent like Bernie comes around. It's in their platform. Does not say Communism -- but it is a kissing cousin to it. I LOVE those folks. They have principles. Like Bernie. Spent a lot of time with them when I was active in Libertarian affairs in California.

In case you missed the nuance. One of your "clan" just conceded that mocking an entire religion is justified --- IF some of their members are dumb. So what I would like to know is -- what is different about that from other folks indicting an ENTIRE religion because some of their members are violent Jihadis??

Do anyone AGREE that's OK??

Still ROFLing over the assertion that all the "smart" Christians are Democrats..

This is a wonderful thing to watch and funny as hell -- if the future of the world didn't hang in the balance.

you really are a dumbass.

most egregious dumbassery highlighted in your dumbass post.

dumbass

Heck -- I was about to check out of this thread. But i MUST honor your most considered rebuttal here.

I mock people of faith. All of them. Especially when they try to mess with people. Some of the brightest people I know are people of faith. That doesn't mean that the dumb ones can't be mocked.

If in the process of that confessed mocking the RELIGIOUS TENETS of such person is mocked -- what I said was completely correct. What are the chances that the confessed mocking would be VOID of derision and scorn for those religious beliefs?

Discussing the Green Party platform and positions is outside the scope of this thread. But if I scratched a Green scab and you want to discuss --- start a thread.

ALL these issues are VITALLY important right now. Have you seen pictures of the completely destroyed cities ALL over the Mid East. Looks like the aftermath of Hiroshima. Refugee camp populations are starting to exceed normal living populations. EVERY DAY is another attack by Islamic Radicals. ISIS just threatened your country on Tuesday. Didya know we now have Intel Ops and soldiers in the fucking SINAI??

And we are coming apart at the seams with partisan fighting with no relief in sight. Level of integrity and problem solving ability of candidates who want to be Prez is at an all time low.

Maybe I exaggerated just a bit eh??? About the future of the world hanging in the balance. If you don't think so --- don't try to convince me. Go find a more important thread on bathrooms or revealing tax returns or GASP ---- some politician lying.. Might be more your speed bud.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Do you think someone here believes that Islam is somehow a liberal religion? Is that where your failure stems from?

It's more about all those who defend some of the very worst things about Islam by indulging in false equivalences to Christianity.

As I mentioned, when you compare at attitude that is mainstream in Islam to one quire rare in Christianity , truly egregious actions in Islam to those merely irritating in Christianity, or actions in today's Islam to the Christianity of times long ago,you are indulging in nothing but propaganda.

When you feel free to attack Christianity while calling people names for criticizing MUCH WORSE in Islam, you are a hypocrite.

When you compare terrorist actions motivated by the desire to spread Islam to acts totally unrelated to Christianity committed by Christians, you are just, plain dishonest.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Do you think someone here believes that Islam is somehow a liberal religion? Is that where your failure stems from?

It's more about all those who defend some of the very worst things about Islam by indulging in false equivalences to Christianity.

As I mentioned, when you compare at attitude that is mainstream in Islam to one quire rare in Christianity , truly egregious actions in Islam to those merely irritating in Christianity, or actions in today's Islam to the Christianity of times long ago,you are indulging in nothing but propaganda.

When you feel free to attack Christianity while calling people names for criticizing MUCH WORSE in Islam, you are a hypocrite.

When you compare terrorist actions motivated by the desire to spread Islam to acts totally unrelated to Christianity committed by Christians, you are just, plain dishonest.

So..you didn't just say that someone else said that Islam is a liberal religion. Good.

Now...WHO HAS DEFENDED SOME OF THE WORST THINGS ABOUT ISLAM????

No need for the qualifier.......because no defense of the worst things about Islam has taken place.

 

[Tehon]

As to help maximize social justice, for starters, we should stop looking the other way at misogyny and call it for what it is. Working directly with Muslim feminist groups would be a good star, too.

I agree, misogyny should be called what it is. Do you think Americans are by and large excepting of misogyny? Do we have a large problem with it here?

The worst thing is to continue to indulge in all this name calling you reserve only for those who reject the ultra-conservatism of Islam. You don't call people names when Christianity is involved, do you? Islam is magnitudes more conservative, yet all the little knees jerk so fast with people trying to be the first to call somebody a bigot-racist-Islamophobe that you can't even discuss the problem.

The name calling is counter productive, for sure. I hope you are not implying that you are above it though, you seem smitten with "illiberal" and "regressive leftist".

The problem is how to liberalize people, and if they receive a steady diet of vitriol from the Imams, that won't happen.

Yes, it's a problem. You can't force it on them, that only alienates them and is inconsistent with liberal ideals. Which is why I believe the approach should be more nuanced, less vitriolic. We certainly can't close Mosques, if that is what you are suggesting.

 

[Kondor3]

The best way to bring about religious freedom in Saudi Arabia is as yet undiscovered. However, I can say with certainty that ending religious freedom in London or here.....is NOT going to accomplish that goal.

Ya dumb shit.

True.

It will get lots of us dead.

Which is why you-and-yours are being pushed back onto the sidelines again, this year.

 

[Rambunctious]

Liberalism is a Mental Disorder...

 

[LoneLaugher]

The best way to bring about religious freedom in Saudi Arabia is as yet undiscovered. However, I can say with certainty that ending religious freedom in London or here.....is NOT going to accomplish that goal.

Ya dumb shit.

True.

It will get lots of us dead.

Which is why you-and-yours are being pushed back onto the sidelines again, this year.

Pushed where? Again?

 

[Vigilante]

 

[Coyote]

Can you give an example of a liberal response to the OP that would be acceptable to you?

The first one who shows a willingness to understand what liberalism is all about and what Islam is all about gets the cookie.

I can tell you that liberalism isn't about denouncing a religion in general which is what seems to be the only acceptable answer to you. I was hoping you could elaborate, maybe drop some of your John Rawls knowledge on me.

Liberalism involves maximizing social justice for all concerned.

Women's second-class status is codified into the very fabric of Islam.

Since you do not know anything about either Islam or liberalism, you are just offering the same mindless platitudes of the others.

It is coded in the fabric of all the Abrahamic faiths yet they evolved. When you damn an entire faith with your vitriol you deny them the opportunity for change and close your eyes to the change that is slowly occurring. What is most telling and most illiberal is utter lack of desire to look at other misogynistic faiths such as Hinduism. Your condemnation is so selective it's laughable to pretend liberalism lies at the root of it.

Imo, liberals look to rectify injustice, joining and supporting those movements that are working to liberalized their religions whether it's accepting equality for gays or ordaining women or pushing for girls education.