The Real American soldier

[Russlan1187]

I was going to post all the verses in one post but it'll take longer than I expected so I'll have to do it in stages. Here are some verses about warfare.


You shall fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not aggress, for God does not love the aggressors.
You may kill them if they attack you, and evict them whence they evict you: oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they attack you wherein. If they attack you, then you may kill them, and this would be their just retribution.
However if they refrain, then God is the Forgiver, the Merciful
You may fight them to prevent oppression, and to practice God’s religion in complete freedom. Once they refrain, there shall be no aggression except against the wicked. (2:190-193)

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Russlan1187
I was going to post all the verses in one post but it'll take longer than I expected so I'll have to do it in stages. Here are some verses about warfare.


You shall fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not aggress, for God does not love the aggressors.
You may kill them if they attack you, and evict them whence they evict you: oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they attack you wherein. If they attack you, then you may kill them, and this would be their just retribution.
However if they refrain, then God is the Forgiver, the Merciful
You may fight them to prevent oppression, and to practice God’s religion in complete freedom. Once they refrain, there shall be no aggression except against the wicked. (2:190-193)

I will quote with bold what you ignore:

You may fight them to prevent oppression, and to practice God’s religion in complete freedom

Which god? Allah.

Lets post the whole 2:190-193, shall we? I will bold the most relevant parts since you have newer and incorrect text.

190. And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.

191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

192. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah and worship is for Allah. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun.

Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah)
Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.


Peaceful?

 

[dilloduck]

What does it say you should do if a muslim screws up and attacks innocent people in the name of Allah?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by dilloduck
What does it say you should do if a muslim screws up and attacks innocent people in the name of Allah?

Trick question when there can be no attack of innocents in the name of allah unless they are already of the islamic faith.

You are trying to say there are innocents, yet the koran clearly states all those not believing in allah are infidels, not innocents.

By your definition, only muslims can be innocents.

Is the answer then, really what you are looking for?

-Or are you trying to say people outside of islam can be innocents? -Which contradicts the koran.

 

[Russlan1187]

Allah is just the arabic word for God. That's the word christians, Jews, and Muslims use when speaking Arabic. You are implying that Allah is the Muslim god which is wrong.

I don't understand your point. Al-Fitnah is oppression, again just the arabic word for it.

The Koran does say to kill those who attack you wherever you find them.

Like I said before, Islam permits warfae to fight oppression.

 

[Russlan1187]

Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah)
Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.

I speak and read Arabic. Those words don't mean what you say. Az-alimen means wicked and evil.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Russlan1187
Allah is just the arabic word for God. That's the word christians, Jews, and Muslims use when speaking Arabic. You are implying that Allah is the Muslim god which is wrong.

-And WHICH God? Not Jesus. He was supposed to merely be a prophet. Therefore Christians and Jews and all others not being muslim are infidels.

I don't understand your point. Al-Fitnah is oppression, again just the arabic word for it.

Read the text again, you said it was peaceful, I say it is not.

Oppression is a secondary issue. How do YOU define it? If you are trying to say killing to fend off or prevent opression of religion is ok, you have a circle of logic.

The Koran does say to kill those who attack you wherever you find them. And read when else it says to kill them as posted. This doesn't even include the other texts presented in other threads.

Like I said before, Islam permits warfae to fight oppression.

DEFINE OPPRESSION.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by NewGuy
-And WHICH God? Not Jesus. He was supposed to merely be a prophet. Therefore Christians and Jews and all others not being muslim are infidels.

interpretation is a strange animal. Most people interpret scriptures in the bible that leads them to believe jesus christ is god, are these interpretations right or wrong?

Also, as I interpret islams definition of god, god is god. allah is god. mohamed and jesus were prophets or sons of god. Islam defines 'infidel' as non-believers or aggressors. Non-believers is not defined as those that don't worship allah, only those that worship other than god.

flame away how wrong you think I am.

 

[Russlan1187]

The Koran states that Muslims, Jews, and Christians can all enter heaven right. The problem most Americans have is they have very little knowledge of Islam except what they are told by people with biased and uninformed opinions. Here is the aforementioned verse

Those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts;any of them who believe in God and the last day, and lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear nor will they grieve. (2:62)

Originally posted by NewGuy
Trick question when there can be no attack of innocents in the name of allah unless they are already of the islamic faith.

You are trying to say there are innocents, yet the koran clearly states all those not believing in allah are infidels, not innocents.

By your definition, only muslims can be innocents.

Is the answer then, really what you are looking for?

-Or are you trying to say people outside of islam can be innocents? -Which contradicts the koran.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Russlan1187
Allah is just the arabic word for God. That's the word christians, Jews, and Muslims use when speaking Arabic. You are implying that Allah is the Muslim god which is wrong.

The Muslim God is not the same as the Christian God. Christians worhsip a god that is three persons in one Essence or Being - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. Muslims worship a god that is one person in one essence. Therefore, it is not accurate to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same god, because Muslims do not recognize the deity of Christ.

 

[Russlan1187]

Muslims do not believe that anyone was the son of God. Jesus and Mohammed were prophets as were Noah, Abraham, etc.

Originally posted by DKSuddeth


Also, as I interpret islams definition of god, god is god. allah is god. mohamed and jesus were prophets or sons of god. Islam defines 'infidel' as non-believers or aggressors. Non-believers is not defined as those that don't worship allah, only those that worship other than god.

flame away how wrong you think I am.

 

[Reilly]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
The Muslim God is not the same as the Christian God. Christians worhsip a god that is three persons in one Essence or Being - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. Muslims worship a god that is one person in one essence. Therefore, it is not accurate to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same god, because Muslims do not recognize the deity of Christ.

Do all Christians believe in the trinity?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Russlan1187
Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah)
Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.

I speak and read Arabic. Those words don't mean what you say. Az-alimen means wicked and evil.

In context?

The point for Az-Zalimun is that anyone not worshiping the islamic faith and their god, is now an infidel, and called wicked and evil.

That is the proper contextual text as dictated.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by NewGuy
In context?

The point for Az-Zalimun is that anyone not worshiping the islamic faith and their god, is now an infidel, and called wicked and evil.

That is the proper contextual text as dictated.

what basis or supporting evidence do you have for that?

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by Reilly
Do all Christians believe in the trinity?

To my knowledge, yes. There are a couple of "Jesus-only" churches out there but they are very rare. But in general, yes, the Trinity is a core Christian belief.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
interpretation is a strange animal. Most people interpret scriptures in the bible that leads them to believe jesus christ is god, are these interpretations right or wrong?

That is why interpretation is wrong.

When something is declaired in text to be something, you look at surrounding context for literal definition of the point.

Interpretation creates out of context ideas.

So to answer your question, all interpretations NOT reading Christ as God (in the trinity) are wrong.

Islam defines 'infidel' as non-believers or aggressors. Non-believers is not defined as those that don't worship allah, only those that worship other than god.

Their god is not the same as the Biblical God. Therefore, you have 2 different "gods".

flame away how wrong you think I am.

Why do you want flame from me?

 

[Russlan1187]

New Guy, if you think that Muslims believe that infidels should always be killed I want you to answer this question for me. If this belief was true how come Jews and Christians lived peacefully in Muslim lands for centuries. Muslims could have easily killed them all as the Muslim empire was the strongest in the world and Europe was in the Dark Ages and unable to protect them?

Muslims believe that all people have the right to live no matter what they believe as long as they don't attempt to harm Islam. If they do they shoud be killed.

 

[Russlan1187]

Dilloduck, I'll answer your question properly tomorrow, OK? I'll get the correct verses and explain it properly.

Originally posted by dilloduck
What does it say you should do if a muslim screws up and attacks innocent people in the name of Allah?

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by NewGuy
That is why interpretation is wrong.

When something is declaired in text to be something, you look at surrounding context for literal definition of the point.

Interpretation creates out of context ideas.

So to answer your question, all interpretations NOT reading Christ as God (in the trinity) are wrong.

Wow, take out christ as god(in the trinity) and input allah, what do you have?

 

[Reilly]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
Wow, take out christ as god(in the trinity) and input allah, what do you have?

:clap1: