The "OZONE HOLE" scam was the pre-curser to the Global Warmists movement.

[JLW]

You have yet to post one iota of actual science. Feel free to post. I'm not stopping you. Knock yourself out.

As I said, the fear conservatives have of the Montreal Protocols is that they are working. Their fear, as irrational as it is, is that it shows the world can work together to cure global issues.

Healing the ozone layer: A ray of hope for planet Earth?

I have been around long enough to remember the same conservative claptrap, about clean air regs, clean water regs, acid rain, lead in gas, tobaccoand on and on and on.

So excuse me if I have disdain for your type of argument because I have heard it all before, and nearly every time the conservative alarmist have been proven wrong. By alarmist, I mean the same argument of how taking action will destroy the economy, it will make us uncompetitive, the science is unsettled, etc.

The cause of ozone layer depletion has been identified and action taken. We know it worked. The ozone layer is recovering. The Montreal Protocol was a success.

Move on.

 

[SSDD]

You have yet to post one iota of actual science. Feel free to post. I'm not stopping you. Knock yourself out.

I know why the ozone layer is there and why the holes have always been there. I am waiting to see if you know the first thing about the topic and are just voicing an entirely political opinion on a scientific issue. You have made claims about one side's scientific knowledge...do you know enough about the topic to have any idea whether that scientific knowledge is right or wrong?

And again, distain doesn't camouflage your fear of having your ignorance regarding the ozone layer put on public display.

 

[JLW]

You have yet to post one iota of actual science. Feel free to post. I'm not stopping you. Knock yourself out.

I know why the ozone layer is there and why the holes have always been there. I am waiting to see if you know the first thing about the topic and are just voicing an entirely political opinion on a scientific issue. You have made claims about one side's scientific knowledge...do you know enough about the topic to have any idea whether that scientific knowledge is right or wrong?

And again, distain doesn't camouflage your fear of having your ignorance regarding the ozone layer put on public display.

LOL.. So you won't post your science because your say you know about the ozone layer and expect me to believe you. Post away and impress me with your knowledge. I am waiting.

 

[JLW]

BTW, I don't claim to be an expert on the Ozone Layer, but what I do know is that the Montreal Protocols worked. Other than this forum, yesterday, I have never read otherwise. The burden is on you to tell me why CFCs and other ozone depleting gasses should not have been banned? Do tell. Do you think the ozone hole was a made up conspiracy by "globalist" as the OP infers? I am waiting.

 

[cnm]

The ban on those nasty CFCs back in the 80s which closed "The Hole in the Ozone" (queue woman screaming) was a bunch of Liberal Hooey.

Only if one wasn't affected by it.

When the Antarctic ozone hole breaks up each year, the ozone-depleted air drifts out into nearby regions. Decreases in the ozone level of up to 10 percent have been reported in New Zealand in the month following the breakup of the Antarctic ozone hole,[37] with ultraviolet-B radiation intensities increasing by more than 15 percent since the 1970s.[38][39]
Ozone depletion - Wikipedia​

 

[SSDD]

BTW, I don't claim to be an expert on the Ozone Layer, but what I do know is that the Montreal Protocols worked. Other than this forum, yesterday, I have never read otherwise. The burden is on you to tell me why CFCs and other ozone depleting gasses should not have been banned? Do tell. Do you think the ozone hole was a made up conspiracy by "globalist" as the OP infers? I am waiting.

Worked to do what?

 

[JLW]

BTW, I don't claim to be an expert on the Ozone Layer, but what I do know is that the Montreal Protocols worked. Other than this forum, yesterday, I have never read otherwise. The burden is on you to tell me why CFCs and other ozone depleting gasses should not have been banned? Do tell. Do you think the ozone hole was a made up conspiracy by "globalist" as the OP infers? I am waiting.

Worked to do what?

Healing the ozone layer. Stop playing games. Answer my questions.

 

[cnm]

You have yet to post one iota of actual science.

Well it is SSDD after all.

 

[polarbear]

You have yet to post one iota of actual science. Feel free to post. I'm not stopping you. Knock yourself out.

As I said, the fear conservatives have of the Montreal Protocols is that they are working. Their fear, as irrational as it is, is that it shows the world can work together to cure global issues.

Healing the ozone layer: A ray of hope for planet Earth?

I have been around long enough to remember the same conservative claptrap, about clean air regs, clean water regs, acid rain, lead in gas, tobaccoand on and on and on.

So excuse me if I have disdain for your type of argument because I have heard it all before, and nearly every time the conservative alarmist have been proven wrong. By alarmist, I mean the same argument of how taking action will destroy the economy, it will make us uncompetitive, the science is unsettled, etc.

The cause of ozone layer depletion has been identified and action taken. We know it worked. The ozone layer is recovering. The Montreal Protocol was a success.

Move on.

So you think the Montreal Protocol was a success?
Read this:
China 'home foam' gas key to ozone mystery
Cut-price Chinese home insulation is being blamed for a massive rise in emissions of a gas, highly damaging to the Earth's protective ozone layer.
The Environmental Investigations Agency (EIA) found widespread use of CFC-11 in China, even though the chemical was fully banned back in 2010.
Scientists have been extremely puzzled by the mysterious rise in emissions.
But this report suggests the key source is China's home construction industry.
Just two months ago, researchers published a study showing that the expected decline in the use of CFC-11 after it was completely banned eight years ago had slowed to a crawl.
There were suspicions among researchers that new supplies were being made somewhere in East Asia.
What can be done about this?
As China is a signatory of the Montreal Protocol that governs the use of ozone-depleting substances, it should be possible to put trade sanctions in place. However, since the protocol was signed in 1987, this weapon of last resort has never been used and it's not expected in this case.

Nothing but crickets about it on the Clinton News Network, so it must be fake news, right?

 

[SSDD]

Since it is clear that you don't know anything about the ozone layer, it is clear that you don't know whether the protocols have done anything.

Let me see if i can make this easy to under stand...for starters lets start with an analogy...the ocean, the surf, and the beach. The area where the ocean meets the beach is called the surf, and in the upper atmosphere, the area where the sunlight meets the air is termed the ozone layer, because in that region ozone is produced as a result of the UV breaking O2 molecules into O molecules some of which reform into O3 molecules,

The surf is a result...it doesn't protect the land from being flooded by the ocean, just as the ozone layer is a result. it is there as a result of harmful UV being dissipated by breaking O2 into O...Some of the O molecules then reform into O3. Ozone is a result, not a cause.

O3 is the result of the photo-chemical process between oxygen and UV light. But it is the photo-chemical process itself which protects us; the ozone is a mere by-product.If you could snap your fingers and make every single last molecule of ozone disappear, it would have absolutely no bearing on the amount of UV light reaching the Earth. The ozone layer would "recharge" for lack of a better word as soon as the next UV radiation was expended breaking down O2 molecules...some of which would then reform onto O3...this process would take milliseconds.

Now that you know how O3 is formed, there are two places on earth where the angle at which incoming solar radiation is oblique and much of it reflects off into space, and there is little oxygen being moved to the upper atmosphere by warm rising currents...Not much incoming solar radiation and not much O2 for what does make in into the atmosphere to break down into O some of which then would reform into O3. Can you guess where those regions are?

The "holes" vary in size from summer to winter over each pole with them being larger during each respective winter...and the "hole" is always larger over the south pole because it receives less solar energy than the north due to the tilt of the earth.

So what did the protocols do?

Now to make a prediction...with the solar output dropping due to the solar minimum...i predict that the "holes" will increase in size as the solar minimum progresses and deepens without regard to the montreal or any other protocol.

 

[SSDD]

You have yet to post one iota of actual science.

Well it is SSDD after all.

I never make claims i can't back up...unlike you.

 

[JLW]

Since it is clear that you don't know anything about the ozone layer, it is clear that you don't know whether the protocols have done anything.

Let me see if i can make this easy to under stand...for starters lets start with an analogy...the ocean, the surf, and the beach. The area where the ocean meets the beach is called the surf, and in the upper atmosphere, the area where the sunlight meets the air is termed the ozone layer, because in that region ozone is produced as a result of the UV acting breaking O2 molecules into O molecules some of which reform into O3 molecules,

The surf is a result...it doesn't protect the land from being flooded by the ocean, just as the ozone layer is a result. it is there as a result of harmful UV being dissipated by breaking O2 into O...Some of the O molecules then reform into O3. Ozone is a result, not a cause.

O3 is the result of the photo-chemical process between oxygen and UV light. But it is the photo-chemical process itself which protects us; the ozone is a mere by-product.If you could snap your fingers and make every single last molecule of ozone disappear, it would have absolutely no bearing on the amount of UV light reaching the Earth. The ozone layer would "recharge" for lack of a better word as soon as the next UV radiation was expended breaking down O2 molecules...some of which would then reform onto O3...this process would take milliseconds.

Now that you know how O3 is formed, there are two places on earth where the angle at which incoming solar radiation is oblique and much of it reflects off into space, and there is little oxygen being moved to the upper atmosphere by warm rising currents...Not much incoming solar radiation and not much O2 for what does make in into the atmosphere to break down into O some of which then would reform into O3.

The "holes" vary in size from summer to winter over each pole with them being larger during each respective winter...and the "hole" is always larger over the south pole because it receives less solar energy than the north due to the tilt of the earth.

So what did the protocols do?

So let's cut to the chase, do you think the ozone hole is a contrived scam by globalists? Do you think it was a mistake to ban CFCs and other ozone depletion gasses? Those were my questions which you did not answer.

 

[SSDD]

Since it is clear that you don't know anything about the ozone layer, it is clear that you don't know whether the protocols have done anything.

Let me see if i can make this easy to under stand...for starters lets start with an analogy...the ocean, the surf, and the beach. The area where the ocean meets the beach is called the surf, and in the upper atmosphere, the area where the sunlight meets the air is termed the ozone layer, because in that region ozone is produced as a result of the UV acting breaking O2 molecules into O molecules some of which reform into O3 molecules,

The surf is a result...it doesn't protect the land from being flooded by the ocean, just as the ozone layer is a result. it is there as a result of harmful UV being dissipated by breaking O2 into O...Some of the O molecules then reform into O3. Ozone is a result, not a cause.

O3 is the result of the photo-chemical process between oxygen and UV light. But it is the photo-chemical process itself which protects us; the ozone is a mere by-product.If you could snap your fingers and make every single last molecule of ozone disappear, it would have absolutely no bearing on the amount of UV light reaching the Earth. The ozone layer would "recharge" for lack of a better word as soon as the next UV radiation was expended breaking down O2 molecules...some of which would then reform onto O3...this process would take milliseconds.

Now that you know how O3 is formed, there are two places on earth where the angle at which incoming solar radiation is oblique and much of it reflects off into space, and there is little oxygen being moved to the upper atmosphere by warm rising currents...Not much incoming solar radiation and not much O2 for what does make in into the atmosphere to break down into O some of which then would reform into O3.

The "holes" vary in size from summer to winter over each pole with them being larger during each respective winter...and the "hole" is always larger over the south pole because it receives less solar energy than the north due to the tilt of the earth.

So what did the protocols do?

So let's cut to the chase, do you think the ozone hole is a contrived scam by globalists? Do you think it was a mistake to ban CFCs and other ozone depletion gasses? Those were my questions which you did not answer.

Of course...it was first made political by a young senator named al gore...His largest campaign contributor...3M had a very expensive CFC free replacement for freon.

And since O3 replenishes immediately, what do you believe the protocols did...it is like trying to protect the land by keeping surfers off the surf for fear of wearing it down.

 

[JLW]

Since it is clear that you don't know anything about the ozone layer, it is clear that you don't know whether the protocols have done anything.

Let me see if i can make this easy to under stand...for starters lets start with an analogy...the ocean, the surf, and the beach. The area where the ocean meets the beach is called the surf, and in the upper atmosphere, the area where the sunlight meets the air is termed the ozone layer, because in that region ozone is produced as a result of the UV acting breaking O2 molecules into O molecules some of which reform into O3 molecules,

The surf is a result...it doesn't protect the land from being flooded by the ocean, just as the ozone layer is a result. it is there as a result of harmful UV being dissipated by breaking O2 into O...Some of the O molecules then reform into O3. Ozone is a result, not a cause.

O3 is the result of the photo-chemical process between oxygen and UV light. But it is the photo-chemical process itself which protects us; the ozone is a mere by-product.If you could snap your fingers and make every single last molecule of ozone disappear, it would have absolutely no bearing on the amount of UV light reaching the Earth. The ozone layer would "recharge" for lack of a better word as soon as the next UV radiation was expended breaking down O2 molecules...some of which would then reform onto O3...this process would take milliseconds.

Now that you know how O3 is formed, there are two places on earth where the angle at which incoming solar radiation is oblique and much of it reflects off into space, and there is little oxygen being moved to the upper atmosphere by warm rising currents...Not much incoming solar radiation and not much O2 for what does make in into the atmosphere to break down into O some of which then would reform into O3.

The "holes" vary in size from summer to winter over each pole with them being larger during each respective winter...and the "hole" is always larger over the south pole because it receives less solar energy than the north due to the tilt of the earth.

So what did the protocols do?

So let's cut to the chase, do you think the ozone hole is a contrived scam by globalists? Do you think it was a mistake to ban CFCs and other ozone depletion gasses? Those were my questions which you did not answer.

Of course...it was first made political by a young senator named al gore...His largest campaign contributor...3M had a very expensive CFC free replacement for freon.

And since O3 replenishes immediately, what do you believe the protocols did...it is like trying to protect the land by keeping surfers off the surf for fear of wearing it down.

That is weird. The first finding that CFCs were causing ozone depletion was in 1976 in a report by the United States National Academy of Sciences. It was at that time that the US began making efforts to move away from aerosol spray cans. The US banned the use of CFCs in 1978. I remember that myself. Al Gore was barely out of law school and was about to enter the Congress as a first term member of the House.

In 1983 the Reagan Administration signed the Vienna Convention of the Protection of the Ozone Layer. Once again that was before Al Gore was elected senator. In 1987 the Montreal Protocols were signed.

 

[SSDD]

Since it is clear that you don't know anything about the ozone layer, it is clear that you don't know whether the protocols have done anything.

Let me see if i can make this easy to under stand...for starters lets start with an analogy...the ocean, the surf, and the beach. The area where the ocean meets the beach is called the surf, and in the upper atmosphere, the area where the sunlight meets the air is termed the ozone layer, because in that region ozone is produced as a result of the UV acting breaking O2 molecules into O molecules some of which reform into O3 molecules,

The surf is a result...it doesn't protect the land from being flooded by the ocean, just as the ozone layer is a result. it is there as a result of harmful UV being dissipated by breaking O2 into O...Some of the O molecules then reform into O3. Ozone is a result, not a cause.

O3 is the result of the photo-chemical process between oxygen and UV light. But it is the photo-chemical process itself which protects us; the ozone is a mere by-product.If you could snap your fingers and make every single last molecule of ozone disappear, it would have absolutely no bearing on the amount of UV light reaching the Earth. The ozone layer would "recharge" for lack of a better word as soon as the next UV radiation was expended breaking down O2 molecules...some of which would then reform onto O3...this process would take milliseconds.

Now that you know how O3 is formed, there are two places on earth where the angle at which incoming solar radiation is oblique and much of it reflects off into space, and there is little oxygen being moved to the upper atmosphere by warm rising currents...Not much incoming solar radiation and not much O2 for what does make in into the atmosphere to break down into O some of which then would reform into O3.

The "holes" vary in size from summer to winter over each pole with them being larger during each respective winter...and the "hole" is always larger over the south pole because it receives less solar energy than the north due to the tilt of the earth.

So what did the protocols do?

So let's cut to the chase, do you think the ozone hole is a contrived scam by globalists? Do you think it was a mistake to ban CFCs and other ozone depletion gasses? Those were my questions which you did not answer.

Of course...it was first made political by a young senator named al gore...His largest campaign contributor...3M had a very expensive CFC free replacement for freon.

And since O3 replenishes immediately, what do you believe the protocols did...it is like trying to protect the land by keeping surfers off the surf for fear of wearing it down.

That is weird. The first finding that CFCs were causing ozone depletion was in 1976 in a report by the United States National Academy of Sciences. It was at that time that the US began making efforts to move away from aerosol spray cans. The US banned the use of CFCs in 1978. I remember that myself. Al Gore was barely out of law school and was about to enter the Congress as a first term member of the House.

In 1983 the Reagan Administration signed the Vienna Convention of the Protection of the Ozone Layer. Once again that was before Al Gore was elected senator. In 1987 the Montreal Protocols were signed.

Not being the political sort, it would seem that I have my politics wrong....the science, however, is not. So what do you think the protocols have done?

 

[SSDD]

A quick look at think progress indicates that I wasn't that far off..

We Saved The Ozone Layer. We Can Save The Climate.

clip: Congress held hearings under the bipartisan leadership of Senators Max Baucus, John Chafee, and Al Gore, and Representatives Henry Waxman and Sherwood Boehlert, keeping the danger in the public eye. And the news media covered the story, without giving equal time to marginal skeptics.

The discovery of the Antarctic ozone hole added new urgency. By 1986, even the chemical industry acknowledged CFC limits were needed.

The chemical industry being 3m who made billions on their CFC free freon replacement...abd those marginal skeptics were pointing out that the holes were always there and talking about the science of the ozone layer and how it couldn't be destroyed so long as there was O2 in the stratosphere and UV coming in from the sun.

 

[SSDD]

by the way, on the think progress site, there is a NASA video of the ozone "hole" watch it form as winter wears on and less and less sunlight is entering the atmosphere over the pole.

 

[SSDD]

Funny in a way to think that the chemical industry hijacked the environmental movement in order to make billions on a new, less effective refrigerant. al gore laughed all the way to the bank.

 

[JLW]

Since it is clear that you don't know anything about the ozone layer, it is clear that you don't know whether the protocols have done anything.

Let me see if i can make this easy to under stand...for starters lets start with an analogy...the ocean, the surf, and the beach. The area where the ocean meets the beach is called the surf, and in the upper atmosphere, the area where the sunlight meets the air is termed the ozone layer, because in that region ozone is produced as a result of the UV acting breaking O2 molecules into O molecules some of which reform into O3 molecules,

The surf is a result...it doesn't protect the land from being flooded by the ocean, just as the ozone layer is a result. it is there as a result of harmful UV being dissipated by breaking O2 into O...Some of the O molecules then reform into O3. Ozone is a result, not a cause.

O3 is the result of the photo-chemical process between oxygen and UV light. But it is the photo-chemical process itself which protects us; the ozone is a mere by-product.If you could snap your fingers and make every single last molecule of ozone disappear, it would have absolutely no bearing on the amount of UV light reaching the Earth. The ozone layer would "recharge" for lack of a better word as soon as the next UV radiation was expended breaking down O2 molecules...some of which would then reform onto O3...this process would take milliseconds.

Now that you know how O3 is formed, there are two places on earth where the angle at which incoming solar radiation is oblique and much of it reflects off into space, and there is little oxygen being moved to the upper atmosphere by warm rising currents...Not much incoming solar radiation and not much O2 for what does make in into the atmosphere to break down into O some of which then would reform into O3.

The "holes" vary in size from summer to winter over each pole with them being larger during each respective winter...and the "hole" is always larger over the south pole because it receives less solar energy than the north due to the tilt of the earth.

So what did the protocols do?

So let's cut to the chase, do you think the ozone hole is a contrived scam by globalists? Do you think it was a mistake to ban CFCs and other ozone depletion gasses? Those were my questions which you did not answer.

Of course...it was first made political by a young senator named al gore...His largest campaign contributor...3M had a very expensive CFC free replacement for freon.

And since O3 replenishes immediately, what do you believe the protocols did...it is like trying to protect the land by keeping surfers off the surf for fear of wearing it down.

That is weird. The first finding that CFCs were causing ozone depletion was in 1976 in a report by the United States National Academy of Sciences. It was at that time that the US began making efforts to move away from aerosol spray cans. The US banned the use of CFCs in 1978. I remember that myself. Al Gore was barely out of law school and was about to enter the Congress as a first term member of the House.

In 1983 the Reagan Administration signed the Vienna Convention of the Protection of the Ozone Layer. Once again that was before Al Gore was elected senator. In 1987 the Montreal Protocols were signed.

Not being the political sort, it would seem that I have my politics wrong....the science, however, is not. So what do you think the protocols have done?

The protocols phased out the use of CFCs and HFCs. Based on what I have read, since the Protocols went into effect the ozone layer has started recovering and will be completely recovered by 2050 or so. To the best of my knowledge, even the former manufacturers of CFCs do not dispute that CFCs resulted in ozone layer depletion.

What I can't understand why this is an issue now. It has been 31 years since the protocols.

The protocols and the actions that led to it were implemented during the Reagan and Bush years. So, the idea that the protocols were some type of liberal conspiracy, perhaps not by you, but by others like the OP, is just hogwash.

 

[SSDD]

The protocols phased out the use of CFCs and HFCs. Based on what I have read, since the Protocols went into effect the ozone layer has started recovering and will be completely recovered by 2050 or so. To the best of my knowledge, even the former manufacturers of CFCs do not dispute that CFCs resulted in ozone layer depletion.

I suggest that you might look at solar output over those "healing" years...since the sun is what makes it...and as i said, the solar minimum is going to result in less ozone formation so watch the holes grow....I predict that government scientists will be "deeply troubled" and suggest more research money into a "problem" they know full well doesn't, and never did exist.

I will put it on my radar and be sure to keep you updated...the only way to stop being a dupe is to first realize that you have been duped.

Actually, the conspiracy was between al gore and 3m....and billions upon billions were made...as a capitalist, i can appreciate what 3M did, but as a consumer and tax payer, i don't appreciate it.