The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Hollie]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh no, I don't think it is confusing at all.

When you say: "You know that the Mandate was merely a temporarily appointed administration. It had no territory or borders." you are implying that there were no specific territorial limits associated with the League of Nations Mandate created after the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was apportioned by the Treaty of Sèvres. In Article 25 of the Mandate, the Emirate of Transjordan (1921-1946), was British-controlled territory, under the Mandate.

Specific to our discussion, the Mandate of Palestine comprised territory that now consists of modern-day Jordan , Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Paulet-Newcombe Line, also known as the Franco-British Boundary Agreements, were a sequence of agreements signed between 1920-23 between the British and French governments regarding the position and nature of the boundary between the Mandates of Palestine and Mesopotamia, attributed to Great Britain, and the Mandate of Syria and the Lebanon, attributed to France. The agreements fixed the line of the Syrian-Palestinian border (now the Syrian-Israeli border) between the Mediterranean Sea and the town of Al-Hamma.[1]The agreement takes its name from French Lieutenant Colonel N. Paulet and British Lieutenant Colonel S. F. Newcombe, who were appointed to lead the Boundary Commission.

The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms in the 1920 "Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia", signed in Paris, on 23 December 1920. That agreement placed the bulk of the Golan Heights in the French sphere. The treaty also established a joint commission to settle the precise details of the border and mark it on the ground.[3]

The commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, which included a number of amendments. It was approved with some caveats by the French and British governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923.
SOURCE: Wiki Paulet–Newcombe_Agreement

View attachment 71469​

Approximately (≈) 76%-77% of the Mandate (for protectorate reasons) called Transjordan --- was given to the Emir Abdullah by the British [territory East of the Jordan River and extending to Mesopotamia (present day Iraq)]. At the time the first Palestine Order in Council was published, the definition was:

View attachment 71471​

The phrase, "the territories to which the Mandate applies" (or variations thereof) flow directly from the definition published in the Palestine Order in Council.

Again, this is that territory formerly under the Mandate for Palestine.

You keep using this term to confuse people. You know that the Mandate was merely a temporarily appointed administration. It had no territory or borders.

(COMMENT)

Yes it is true that a Mandate (itself) is an order from authority (legal commission for the administration), or a politically recognized commission; however, every order, mandate, or commission has its limitations -- with the question of: to what does it apply? The limit of the Mandate for Palestine was a territorial boundary --- in 1922 (when the Palestine Order in Council was written), the nomenclature for the territory was derivative from the Treaty of Sevres:

SECTION VII --- SYRIA, MESOPOTAMIA, PALESTINE.
ARTICLE 95.

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers.
​

(CENTRAL POINT)

There is an argument to be made that the San Remo Peace Conference (and the adoption of the Balfour Declaration) was the pivotal point in the creation of an associated territory --- and an Administration for that territory. Although the Supreme Council did not have a clear set of boundaries established yet, they were confident that they could work with an approximation until a Joint Boundary Survey could hammer-out the lines. Hence, the phrase, "the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them" was put into use. Of course --- this was later established by Colonels Paulette and Newman. And it was at that point the, the adoption of the 1923 Paulette-Newman Agreement that the first real steps towards the establishment of the Jewish National Home was begun.

A theme to this central point is the idea that in they would erect a right for the Jewish People (worldwide) to gain refuge in their homeland; a place that they could control and protect against the excesses of the so many that used the color of law to exploit the Jewish People. While today much of the original intent to protect and preserve the Jewish People and their culture has faded and ceased to exist; all the rights of the Jewish People that were derived from the linage of the Balfour Declaration and onward remained in full force. And this included what was to become known as the "right of self-determination."

Just as, at the time the Mandates were created, the applicable phrase was "former territories of the Ottoman Empire," so it became after the termination of the British Mandate, "former territories to which the Mandate Applied." And this phrase became popular by the post-1948 War Arabs of Palestine (within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers) to which they lay claim.

"The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense." (The Arab League -- Arab Higher Committee) Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

So, what part of all this refutes my post?

The part you read and are now stuttering and mumbling about.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Hell no, I'm not joking.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh ---WOW!

Of course it had a specific territory. It was assigned to Palestine so obviously it operated inside Palestinian territory.
That does not refute my post.

(QUESTIONS)

• When you say the Mandate was assigned to Palestine, exactly where was this place (that you are referring to and) called Palestine?
• Under what sovereign authority was this Palestine?
• What are the boundaries of "inside Palestinian territory?"

Most Respectfully,
R

You're joking, right?

(COMMENT)

You implied that Palestine, prior to the establishment of the Allied Powers agreed upon boundaries had a specific territory. I would like to know the boundary of the Arab communities that called themselves Palestinians in a pre-1920 Middle East.

In 1922, when the Mandate was written, the boundary of Palestine had not been established yet. How did the Arabs of the region know who would be Palestinian and who would not?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

Palestine and where the Palestinians lived was in the Ottoman Filastin Risalesi military district. The map was drawn before Ataturk, hence it is in Turkish but using the Arabic script.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Hell no, I'm not joking.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh ---WOW!

Of course it had a specific territory. It was assigned to Palestine so obviously it operated inside Palestinian territory.
That does not refute my post.

(QUESTIONS)

• When you say the Mandate was assigned to Palestine, exactly where was this place (that you are referring to and) called Palestine?
• Under what sovereign authority was this Palestine?
• What are the boundaries of "inside Palestinian territory?"

Most Respectfully,
R

You're joking, right?

(COMMENT)

You implied that Palestine, prior to the establishment of the Allied Powers agreed upon boundaries had a specific territory. I would like to know the boundary of the Arab communities that called themselves Palestinians in a pre-1920 Middle East.

In 1922, when the Mandate was written, the boundary of Palestine had not been established yet. How did the Arabs of the region know who would be Palestinian and who would not?

Most Respectfully,
R

Straw man argument.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

This map does not have anything to do with Palestine. The territorial delimitation in the pre-1922 period was estimated in San Remo; but the lines were not established. The politics and the critical diplomatic decisions were evolving.

The British-French Boundary (Paulet–Newcombe Agreement) Commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, which included a number of amendments. It was approved with some caveats by the French and British governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923.

The Map you inserted only depicts the Vilayet of Beirut (and not all of it --- at that) and the Sanjuk of Jerusalem. From Tyre (Sour) and south to the vicinity Arish. And it only depicts routes and strongholds that are west of the Central Mountain Ridge (Upper Galilee to south of the Central Plain).

Jund Filastin (Arabic: جند فلسطين‎, “military district of Palestine“) was one of the military districts of the Ummayad and Abbasid Caliphate province of Bilad al-Sham (Syria), organized soon after the Muslim conquest of the Levant in the 630s. A "Military District" in the Ottoman Empire was not a political subdivision. And this map depicts a military supply routes (MSRs) from 13 Centuries ago (630).

7th century

• 614 – The Persian Empire under general Shahrbaraz captures and sacks Jerusalem; the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is damaged by fire and the True Cross is captured.
• 629 – Byzantine Emperor Heraclius retakes Jerusalem, after the decisive defeat of the Sassanid Empire at the Battle of Nineveh (627).
• 638 – the conquest of Jerusalem by the armies of the Rashidun Caliphate (Islamic Empire) under Caliph Umar Ibn el-Khatab. Jews are permitted to return to the city after 568 years of Roman and Byzantine rule.
​

Palestine and where the Palestinians lived was in the Ottoman Filastin Risalesi military district. The map was drawn before Ataturk, hence it is in Turkish but using the Arabic script.

(COMMENT)

Yes, the Map is quite old. It does not depict the 1920 Palestine or the refined 1924 Palestine, as known to the Allied Powers. If your old map was accurate, then the most of the West Bank and none of the territory to the East of the Dead Sea and on the Eastern Slope of of the Central Mountain Ridge.

I wouldn't put too much faith in this Map as convincing or persuasive.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

Ah, but it does answer your question. You can bullshit all you want, but you asked a question and you got the correct answer. Don't play games punk.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

You didn't get the right answer.

Ah, but it does answer your question. You can bullshit all you want, but you asked a question and you got the correct answer. Don't play games punk.

(COMMENT)

If that is the right answer then today's Arab Palestinians of the West Bank are not of Palestinians Linage at all.

But I know better. Time plays an important part in determining who is who; and when they were.

For more than 8 Centuries, what we call the Arab Palestinian today, were Ottoman Citizens. In the Ottoman Empire, there was simply no Ottoman/Turk Political Subdivision called "Palestine." And no Map from 13 Centuries ago will change that. (No matter how many names you might call me!)

What we call the Arabs of Palestine today, is much different than the Arabs of the territory under the Mandate for Palestine. And that is still much different again from a inhabitants of 13 Centuries ago.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh ---WOW!

Of course it had a specific territory. It was assigned to Palestine so obviously it operated inside Palestinian territory.
That does not refute my post.

(QUESTIONS)

• When you say the Mandate was assigned to Palestine, exactly where was this place (that you are referring to and) called Palestine?
• Under what sovereign authority was this Palestine?
• What are the boundaries of "inside Palestinian territory?"

Most Respectfully,
R

You're joking, right?

NO he is serious, lets see you make a complete fool of yourself in public so musch so that you wont want to come out ever again

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Hell no, I'm not joking.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Oh ---WOW!

Of course it had a specific territory. It was assigned to Palestine so obviously it operated inside Palestinian territory.
That does not refute my post.

(QUESTIONS)

• When you say the Mandate was assigned to Palestine, exactly where was this place (that you are referring to and) called Palestine?
• Under what sovereign authority was this Palestine?
• What are the boundaries of "inside Palestinian territory?"

Most Respectfully,
R

You're joking, right?

(COMMENT)

You implied that Palestine, prior to the establishment of the Allied Powers agreed upon boundaries had a specific territory. I would like to know the boundary of the Arab communities that called themselves Palestinians in a pre-1920 Middle East.

In 1922, when the Mandate was written, the boundary of Palestine had not been established yet. How did the Arabs of the region know who would be Palestinian and who would not?

Most Respectfully,
R

Straw man argument.

No a valid question to see if you are on your toes. Guess not

 

[Phoenall]

Ah, but it does answer your question. You can bullshit all you want, but you asked a question and you got the correct answer. Don't play games punk.

WRONG AGAIN FREDDY as it is not a map of Palestine by your own wordsit os a map of "Ottoman Filastin Risalesi military district" predating the Ottomans.

You are the punk, and the foul mouthed sorry excuse for a human being that infests these boards

 

[Challenger]

And this map depicts a military supply routes (MSRs) from 13 Centuries ago (630).

Well I know the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires were fairly advanced, but I never knew they had RAILWAYS back in the 7th century....

 

[RoccoR]

Challenger, et al,

That is not the map I posted. That is a 1924 General Military Map (War Office).

And this map depicts a military supply routes (MSRs) from 13 Centuries ago (630).

Well I know the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires were fairly advanced, but I never knew they had RAILWAYS back in the 7th century....

(COMMENT)

Some information never changes from one century to the next. Geographic Names for Maps are not necessarily associated with the Civil Administration, or the boundaries in which it depicts.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Challenger]

Challenger, et al,

That is not the map I posted. That is a 1924 General Military Map (War Office).

And this map depicts a military supply routes (MSRs) from 13 Centuries ago (630).

Well I know the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires were fairly advanced, but I never knew they had RAILWAYS back in the 7th century....

(COMMENT)

Some information never changes from one century to the next. Geographic Names for Maps are not necessarily associated with the Civil Administration, or the boundaries in which it depicts.

Most Respectfully,
R

You never posted a map, you commented on the map posted in #723

The Map you inserted only depicts the Vilayet of Beirut (and not all of it --- at that) and the Sanjuk of Jerusalem. From Tyre (Sour) and south to the vicinity Arish. And it only depicts routes and strongholds that are west of the Central Mountain Ridge (Upper Galilee to south of the Central Plain).

to whit,

And this map depicts a military supply routes (MSRs) from 13 Centuries ago (630).

The map originally cited contained clear railway lines and I produced a more modern map that confirmed the same railway lines, and added my sarcastic comment.

Does that help any?

 

[RoccoR]

Challenger, et al,

Same Basic Map, just with new information on it.

The MSR in that region of the world have remained the same for centuries. The topography hasn't changed. It is very similar to how the UN Map 103.1 (1946) Map is used as the Basic Map, and then it is just annotated with new information. That Map is still in general use today. Just as the older maps of the Hejaz Railway were annotated onto much older maps.

Without regard to how you attempt to scramble the information, it is a Regional Map of Palestine and not a map of a political subdivision called Palestine.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

This an Ottoman map of Palestine (Filastin) from a an Ottoman Government publication called
Filastin Risalesi, (Treatise on Palestine) from 1915.

 

[Hollie]

This an Ottoman map of Palestine (Filastin) from a an Ottoman Government publication called
Filastin Risalesi, (Treatise on Palestine) from 1915.

Yes, yes, Monty. That's all very nice. The photo is one you have cut and pasted many times for no apparent reason.

You neglected to include a link for obvious reasons.

Afternoon Map: July 2013


The first map in this collection was published in Filastin Risalesi, an official publication of the Ottoman army intended to be used as an officer’s manual for the Palestine region.The manual itself is a social, topographical, demographic and economic survey of Palestine circa its time of publication, 1331 (Rumi).[2]It is actually a quite unremarkable work, and resembles much of the ‘geographical’ literature published in both Ottoman and Arabic in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.The map itself, just as the rest of the book, is published in Ottoman Turkish, and includes both topographical features, such as rivers and mountains (the darker the color, the higher the altitude), as well as all of the major towns and cities.

 

[montelatici]

And?

 

[Hollie]

And?

And.... what is served by cutting and pasting as you do, without attribution and without some relevance to the thread?

 

[montelatici]

The thread was discussing maps of Palestine, get with the program. You need to look up the word "relevance" lying Hollie.

 

[Challenger]

Without regard to how you attempt to scramble the information, it is a Regional Map of Palestine and not a map of a political subdivision called Palestine.

No such attempt, just your Zionist paranoia over reacting to a poor attempt at humour.