The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[Ernie S.]

Interesting. I'd heard you mention the parents thing before but not the explanation of why you were mentioning it.

I suppose having been the "guy" .. the "coach" who helped turn dozens of kids just like this one around, I lament that Zimmerman decided to fight the kid instead of befriending him. Kid gives you a good punch.. ok it's a kid you say good punch kid, damn that hurt, hold up partner, I'm on your side. It's a kid for heaven sake... and yes I get it's a big kid but you can tell the difference. I've seen no evidence that this kid was a thug. Troubled yeah troubled. If Zimmerman had ended the fight he might have been able to take TM to the gym with him. This is how friendships are made. Gun shot to the chest... yeah not so much.

Who's to say he didn't try to defuse the situation?

Certainly not me. If Zim, tried, I'll give him props for it. Did Zimmerman say he tried? Did he provide a detailed explanation for that?

not that I know of, but it seems you are making a lot of unsupported suppositions too. THAT was my point.

 

[AyeCantSeeYou]

[MENTION=23905]Trajan[/MENTION]
Here's a little summary for you from John Good's testimony today:
"....The testimony of John Good contradicted that of a neighbor who told the Florida court Thursday Zimmerman was on top of Martin in those critical seconds before the fatal shot was fired. …

“Could you describe who was on top and who was at bottom,” asked prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.

“The color on top was dark and the color at bottom was…red,” responded Good referring to the men’s clothing.

At another point he told the court that the person on the bottom had “lighter skin color.”

Zimmerman is a white Hispanic who was wearing a red and black jacket that night. Martin, who was black, was wearing a dark sweatshirt.

He also said, “The person on the bottom, I could hear a ‘Help.’”

Under cross examination by Zimmerman’s lawyer, Good said he believes he saw Martin on top punching Zimmerman “MMA style,” a reference to mixed martial arts..........

The state could have charged Zimmerman with manslaughter and argued that he used deadly force without just cause, rather than go with a second-degree murder charge that requires some act of malice or “depraved mind.” If Good convinces the jury that Zimmerman was receiving an “MMA-style beating” when he pulled the pistol and fired, then the only verdict left is acquittal of second-degree murder. Even the conflicting witness testimony could be enough to produce a reasonable doubt in the minds of jurors.

This has the appearance of over-charging by the prosecution, and that raises its own questions about motives involved in making that decision."
Prosecution witness in Zimmerman trial testifies Martin on top in fight « Hot Air

 

[RKMBrown]

Who's to say he didn't try to defuse the situation?

Certainly not me. If Zim, tried, I'll give him props for it. Did Zimmerman say he tried? Did he provide a detailed explanation for that?

No...zimmerman did not...the first chance Mr Z had to defuse the situation he went reaching for his pockets.

I mean at least identify yourself.

I cant believe with all of the intelligence in this forum that adults cant put a list together of some possible solutions to avoid this in the future...surely this isnt the end all answer to teens roaming a neighborhood.

Could Zimmerman have done anything differently? If it was your child, then what would you expect or appreciate from Zimmerman given the same situation? Come on...I know there has to be some ideas out there.

I would have expected from a NWatch CAPatrol guy, flashing yellow lights, some form of identification being presented, a certain amount of respect shown to the teen, maybe hand him an umbrella.

 

[RKMBrown]

Who's to say he didn't try to defuse the situation?

Certainly not me. If Zim, tried, I'll give him props for it. Did Zimmerman say he tried? Did he provide a detailed explanation for that?

not that I know of, but it seems you are making a lot of unsupported suppositions too. THAT was my point.

Not my intention. More pointing to what I would have done.

 

[Ernie S.]

Who's to say he didn't try to defuse the situation?

Certainly not me. If Zim, tried, I'll give him props for it. Did Zimmerman say he tried? Did he provide a detailed explanation for that?

No...zimmerman did not...the first chance Mr Z had to defuse the situation he went reaching for his pockets.

I mean at least identify yourself.

I cant believe with all of the intelligence in this forum that adults cant put a list together of some possible solutions to avoid this in the future...surely this isnt the end all answer to teens roaming a neighborhood.

Could Zimmerman have done anything differently? If it was your child, then what would you expect or appreciate from Zimmerman given the same situation? Come on...I know there has to be some ideas out there.
[MENTION=26011]Ernie S.[/MENTION] ? You were a NH watch guy...what would you have done differently early on? I cant see you doing the same as Mr Z...you ride a harley! We have more balls than that...we aint afraid to speak or approach a juvenile...lol.

Of course we can put together suggestions to avoid a repeat, but that isn't what we're talking about.

Me? I would have done pretty much what Zimmerman did. He was asked which direction Martin went and he tried to comply. Shortly after being told he didn't need to follow, he broke off pursuit and returned towards his vehicle. In my opinion, he acted appropriately. Martin, on the other hand acted recklessly and paid for it.

So, what we can do is teach out kids not to attack people.

 

[25Caliber]

Certainly not me. If Zim, tried, I'll give him props for it. Did Zimmerman say he tried? Did he provide a detailed explanation for that?

No...zimmerman did not...the first chance Mr Z had to defuse the situation he went reaching for his pockets.

I mean at least identify yourself.

I cant believe with all of the intelligence in this forum that adults cant put a list together of some possible solutions to avoid this in the future...surely this isnt the end all answer to teens roaming a neighborhood.

Could Zimmerman have done anything differently? If it was your child, then what would you expect or appreciate from Zimmerman given the same situation? Come on...I know there has to be some ideas out there.
[MENTION=26011]Ernie S.[/MENTION] ? You were a NH watch guy...what would you have done differently early on? I cant see you doing the same as Mr Z...you ride a harley! We have more balls than that...we aint afraid to speak or approach a juvenile...lol.

Of course we can put together suggestions to avoid a repeat, but that isn't what we're talking about.

Me? I would have done pretty much what Zimmerman did. He was asked which direction Martin went and he tried to comply. Shortly after being told he didn't need to follow, he broke off pursuit and returned towards his vehicle. In my opinion, he acted appropriately. Martin, on the other hand acted recklessly and paid for it.

So, what we can do is teach out kids not to attack people.

I can respect that...But reality is these kids are out there and all over the place...do we follow these kids in the dark and rain packing a pistol?...or is there something else that could be done? So that Im not on trial facing life in prison for shooting a 17 year old with a bag of skittles in his pockets?

Anyone else?

 

[RKMBrown]

Really?? So far the testimony is Zimmerman took a beating.

I can see it now. "yeah kid. Funny thing you jumping me, ahh good times. Oh the gun, no no no, that's not a toy son. Lets you and me go hang out and talk football. I hear you're pretty damn good when not suspended. Oh btw did you know there have been many breaking in the hood? Man, you gotta be careful."

Zimmerman actually did mentor and give to kids. Ths situation was not his doing.

The beating occurred at the end of the fight. It was a long fight that somehow covered a significant amount of distance? According to Goodman it was just a minor tussle right up until the 8seconds they were on the concrete and it was at that point that it got serious.

The point, and no I don't expect you to understand, is that men should diffuse fights with children, not engage in them.

You can't defuse shit when you're on your back with a broken nose, swallowing your own blood. All you can do at that point is fight your way out of it. Zimmerman did what he had to do.

Yeah I've been in way to many fights I guess. I admit my experience is probably much different than Zimmerman. It's really hard for me to imagine being weak and defenseless like Zimmerman had to be to get into this situation. I don't consider shooting my way out of a fist fight, fighting my way out of it.

 

[Zona]

Really?? So far the testimony is Zimmerman took a beating.

I can see it now. "yeah kid. Funny thing you jumping me, ahh good times. Oh the gun, no no no, that's not a toy son. Lets you and me go hang out and talk football. I hear you're pretty damn good when not suspended. Oh btw did you know there have been many breaking in the hood? Man, you gotta be careful."

Zimmerman actually did mentor and give to kids. Ths situation was not his doing.

The beating occurred at the end of the fight. It was a long fight that somehow covered a significant amount of distance? According to Goodman it was just a minor tussle right up until the 8seconds they were on the concrete and it was at that point that it got serious.

The point, and no I don't expect you to understand, is that men should diffuse fights with children, not engage in them.

You can't defuse shit when you're on your back with a broken nose, swallowing your own blood. All you can do at that point is fight your way out of it. Zimmerman did what he had to do.

Who had a broken nose? Damn you defenders lie so much.

 

[R.D.]

The time for Zimmerman to be the adult in the room was very early on...he didnt do that and the situation escalated. Did he have to? No. But if he had, would this have been prevented?

If someone is circling my truck, I would say something. It most likely wouldnt be confrontational and would be in an attempt to try to defuse the situation that is appearing to have escalated already. Zimmerman didnt do that...its something that he could have done differently.

Im sure, in hind sight, zimmerman would not do exactly what he did again. That didnt turn out too well for either side. Its life...you live and learn and try a different approach next time. Unfortunately, there is only one side that can live and learn. In Trayvons case, Im sure he would just go home next time and likewise should have defused the situation also.

You berate Sunshine for her experiences as applied to the topic only to give hypothetical silliness as to what you may have or may not have done in a similar single snapshot of events.

I'll play. If someone was circling my car, acting suspicious with a rash of burgleries in my complex I would do just a he did. Call 911 and report it. Your imagined escalation is ridiculous as to the testimony. Unless of course you accept Trayvon was up to no good. Travon confronted George, not the other way around. The beating took place within seconds.

And yes I guess George would do things differently, no one assumes a young kid with too much time on his hands and too little brains going to attack. Now we know better

 

[Zona]

My 'experience and anger?' Jeeze. I am retired with 4 pensions and 3 health insurances. Get real.

Neither of those drugs are antipsychotic drugs, one is a mild sleep preparation, and the other is a mild stimulant that a lot of adults who were diagnosed with ADD as children still have to take, and which other adults who never had the opportunity to get a correct diagnosis as children also take. Neither of them are big time meds.

And no, I didn't spend a 'lifetime dealing with psych patients.' It was my job for 25 of my 65 years. Not my life. I was married, raised children, went to school, learned to oil paint, and various other artistic and intellectual pursuits.

It really seems to bother you that someone can actually have a background in what is being discussed and know what is going on here.

Gratz on the retirement and the children. I do hope all is well. When I heard the skittles part and the hoodie I projected my kids who wear hoodies and love skittles. I did a lot of coaching of youth like Trayvon. I have boys that played FB. I also have a daughter who is an RN working Emergency at a large Trauma one center who has to deal with the psych patients every day... I respect your experience. My point was that you may have a bias, just like everyone else. It's ok to have a bias without getting mad at people that have a somewhat different bias. Through reasoned discussions we may end up with the same pov or not.

I have experience that gives me insight into behaviors. Here is this kid, in trouble, kicked out of school. Who needs their parents more than that kid? And where are his parents? One shuttles him off to the other because she can't handle him, and the one who gets him is out with his girlfriend. Seriously. This kid needed some involved parent time, but instead was out roaming around at night alone. And, no, I didn't let mine do that. That question always seems to come up.

I agree. His father should never have been out with his girlfriend. He should have been there, had martin locked in the basement and never have allowed him to go to the store for skittles. We all know what skittles means. Don't we.

 

[R.D.]

The beating occurred at the end of the fight. It was a long fight that somehow covered a significant amount of distance? According to Goodman it was just a minor tussle right up until the 8seconds they were on the concrete and it was at that point that it got serious.

The point, and no I don't expect you to understand, is that men should diffuse fights with children, not engage in them.

You can't defuse shit when you're on your back with a broken nose, swallowing your own blood. All you can do at that point is fight your way out of it. Zimmerman did what he had to do.

Yeah I've been in way to many fights I guess. I admit my experience is probably much different than Zimmerman. It's really hard for me to imagine being weak and defenseless like Zimmerman had to be to get into this situation. I don't consider shooting my way out of a fist fight, fighting my way out of it.

You continue to judge based on limited knowledge, but then hedge. The defense will remind you Trayvon went for the gun, the beating is just an appetizer

 

[25Caliber]

The time for Zimmerman to be the adult in the room was very early on...he didnt do that and the situation escalated. Did he have to? No. But if he had, would this have been prevented?

If someone is circling my truck, I would say something. It most likely wouldnt be confrontational and would be in an attempt to try to defuse the situation that is appearing to have escalated already. Zimmerman didnt do that...its something that he could have done differently.

Im sure, in hind sight, zimmerman would not do exactly what he did again. That didnt turn out too well for either side. Its life...you live and learn and try a different approach next time. Unfortunately, there is only one side that can live and learn. In Trayvons case, Im sure he would just go home next time and likewise should have defused the situation also.

You berate Sunshine for her experiences as applied to the topic only to give hypothetical silliness as to what you may have or may not have done in a similar single snapshot of events.

I'll play. If someone was circling my car, acting suspicious with a rash of burgleries in my complex I would do just a he did. Call 911 and report it. Your imagined escalation is ridiculous as to the testimony. Unless of course you accept Trayvon was up to no good. Travon confronted George, not the other way around. The beating took place within seconds.

And yes I guess George would do things differently, no one assumes a young kid with too much time on his hands and too little brains going to attack. Now we know better

Hypothetical silliness? Lmao. Next.

Anyone else?...RD has no solutions either. Pack a gun and follow in the dark and rain...lesson learned? Nope.

Follow my kid in the dark and rain...dont identify yourself and see what happens. Officer: Why did you hit him over the head with a crow bar?...well he was stalking my kid in the dark....I didnt know who he was...thought he was some creep.

Is there a problem?...oh no theres no problem here mr big bad teenager...damn right you got a problem now...wheres my phone...help me...someone help me!!! Gimme a break...he was scared to death of a 17 year old.

 

[RKMBrown]

[MENTION=23905]Trajan[/MENTION]
Here's a little summary for you from John Good's testimony today:
"....The testimony of John Good contradicted that of a neighbor who told the Florida court Thursday Zimmerman was on top of Martin in those critical seconds before the fatal shot was fired. …

“Could you describe who was on top and who was at bottom,” asked prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda.

“The color on top was dark and the color at bottom was…red,” responded Good referring to the men’s clothing.

At another point he told the court that the person on the bottom had “lighter skin color.”

Zimmerman is a white Hispanic who was wearing a red and black jacket that night. Martin, who was black, was wearing a dark sweatshirt.

He also said, “The person on the bottom, I could hear a ‘Help.’”

Under cross examination by Zimmerman’s lawyer, Good said he believes he saw Martin on top punching Zimmerman “MMA style,” a reference to mixed martial arts..........

The state could have charged Zimmerman with manslaughter and argued that he used deadly force without just cause, rather than go with a second-degree murder charge that requires some act of malice or “depraved mind.” If Good convinces the jury that Zimmerman was receiving an “MMA-style beating” when he pulled the pistol and fired, then the only verdict left is acquittal of second-degree murder. Even the conflicting witness testimony could be enough to produce a reasonable doubt in the minds of jurors.

This has the appearance of over-charging by the prosecution, and that raises its own questions about motives involved in making that decision."
Prosecution witness in Zimmerman trial testifies Martin on top in fight « Hot Air

The lesser included offense of involuntary manslaughter is still there. The jury can find GZ innocent of 2nd degree and convict GZ on involuntary manslaughter. This might have been the plan all along.

 

[RKMBrown]

You can't defuse shit when you're on your back with a broken nose, swallowing your own blood. All you can do at that point is fight your way out of it. Zimmerman did what he had to do.

Yeah I've been in way to many fights I guess. I admit my experience is probably much different than Zimmerman. It's really hard for me to imagine being weak and defenseless like Zimmerman had to be to get into this situation. I don't consider shooting my way out of a fist fight, fighting my way out of it.

You continue to judge based on limited knowledge, but then hedge. The defense will remind you Trayvon went for the gun, the beating is just an appetizer

Ayup.. just chatting on a BB. I'm not on the jury.

 

[asterism]

The beating occurred at the end of the fight. It was a long fight that somehow covered a significant amount of distance? According to Goodman it was just a minor tussle right up until the 8seconds they were on the concrete and it was at that point that it got serious.

The point, and no I don't expect you to understand, is that men should diffuse fights with children, not engage in them.

You can't defuse shit when you're on your back with a broken nose, swallowing your own blood. All you can do at that point is fight your way out of it. Zimmerman did what he had to do.

Who had a broken nose? Damn you defenders lie so much.

You don't think Zimmerman had a broken nose?

 

[25Caliber]

You can't defuse shit when you're on your back with a broken nose, swallowing your own blood. All you can do at that point is fight your way out of it. Zimmerman did what he had to do.

Who had a broken nose? Damn you defenders lie so much.

You don't think Zimmerman had a broken nose?

The medical report said fractured. Nose was not broke.

 

[Ernie S.]

No...zimmerman did not...the first chance Mr Z had to defuse the situation he went reaching for his pockets.

I mean at least identify yourself.

I cant believe with all of the intelligence in this forum that adults cant put a list together of some possible solutions to avoid this in the future...surely this isnt the end all answer to teens roaming a neighborhood.

Could Zimmerman have done anything differently? If it was your child, then what would you expect or appreciate from Zimmerman given the same situation? Come on...I know there has to be some ideas out there.
[MENTION=26011]Ernie S.[/MENTION] ? You were a NH watch guy...what would you have done differently early on? I cant see you doing the same as Mr Z...you ride a harley! We have more balls than that...we aint afraid to speak or approach a juvenile...lol.

Of course we can put together suggestions to avoid a repeat, but that isn't what we're talking about.

Me? I would have done pretty much what Zimmerman did. He was asked which direction Martin went and he tried to comply. Shortly after being told he didn't need to follow, he broke off pursuit and returned towards his vehicle. In my opinion, he acted appropriately. Martin, on the other hand acted recklessly and paid for it.

So, what we can do is teach out kids not to attack people.

I can respect that...But reality is these kids are out there and all over the place...do we follow these kids in the dark and rain packing a pistol?...or is there something else that could be done? So that Im not on trial facing life in prison for shooting a 17 year old with a bag of skittles in his pockets?

Anyone else?

Yes we follow them until we don't need to follow teenagers around in the dark. The whole point of neighborhood watch is not to prevent situations like Martin/Zimmerman, but to prevent break-ins and robberies. That is what Zimmerman was trying to do.

The problem is not armed men trying to prevent crime. The problem is criminals. This is not to say Martin was about to commit a crime, just that Zimmerman was trying to perform his function and reacting as a reasonable person in his capacity would given today's society.

 

[asterism]

The time for Zimmerman to be the adult in the room was very early on...he didnt do that and the situation escalated. Did he have to? No. But if he had, would this have been prevented?

If someone is circling my truck, I would say something. It most likely wouldnt be confrontational and would be in an attempt to try to defuse the situation that is appearing to have escalated already. Zimmerman didnt do that...its something that he could have done differently.

Im sure, in hind sight, zimmerman would not do exactly what he did again. That didnt turn out too well for either side. Its life...you live and learn and try a different approach next time. Unfortunately, there is only one side that can live and learn. In Trayvons case, Im sure he would just go home next time and likewise should have defused the situation also.

You berate Sunshine for her experiences as applied to the topic only to give hypothetical silliness as to what you may have or may not have done in a similar single snapshot of events.

I'll play. If someone was circling my car, acting suspicious with a rash of burgleries in my complex I would do just a he did. Call 911 and report it. Your imagined escalation is ridiculous as to the testimony. Unless of course you accept Trayvon was up to no good. Travon confronted George, not the other way around. The beating took place within seconds.

And yes I guess George would do things differently, no one assumes a young kid with too much time on his hands and too little brains going to attack. Now we know better

Hypothetical silliness? Lmao. Next.

Anyone else?...RD has no solutions either. Pack a gun and follow in the dark and rain...lesson learned? Nope.

Follow my kid in the dark and rain...dont identify yourself and see what happens. Officer: Why did you hit him over the head with a crow bar?...well he was stalking my kid in the dark....I didnt know who he was...thought he was some creep.

Is there a problem?...oh no theres no problem here mr big bad teenager...damn right you got a problem now...wheres my phone...help me...someone help me!!! Gimme a break...he was scared to death of a 17 year old.

I remember when I got mugged I could have sworn the thieves were in their 20s. When I gave their description to the Police they were identified as 16 year old kids. I was very scared, took a defensive posture, and ran across the parking lot after one of them broke a bottle over my head.

While there are plenty of internet tough guys, there aren't a lot of people posting here about confrontations with thug teenagers with no respect for anyone and depraved upbringings.

Some kids are quite capable of killing and will do so for the change in your pocket.

 

[AyeCantSeeYou]

You can't defuse shit when you're on your back with a broken nose, swallowing your own blood. All you can do at that point is fight your way out of it. Zimmerman did what he had to do.

Who had a broken nose? Damn you defenders lie so much.

You don't think Zimmerman had a broken nose?

Physician assistant: George Zimmerman trained 'MMA style' | News 13

This lists the witnesses that were on the stand today. If you look to the right, you'll see there's an area for videos of the testimony for each.

"On the visit on Feb. 27, 2012, the day after Trayvon Martin was shot, Folgate said Zimmerman told her he was in a fight and his head was shoved into the ground. He also told her he had a weapon and shot his attacker.

Folgate said Zimmerman complained of feeling nauseated upon reflecting what had happened. But she attributed that to psychological factors rather than any physical condition. She also said it appeared his nose was broken, but it was impossible to say for sure, since no X-rays were taken. She recommended he see an ear-and-nose doctor and a psychologist.

When O'Mara asked if abrasions on his head were consistent with someone who had his had slammed into concrete, Folgate said, "it could be consistent, yes." "

 

[RKMBrown]

Florida Involuntary Manslaughter Laws - FindLaw

Interesting. So with involuntary they just need to prove a lack of care by GZ in handling his weapon. Didn't someone say he had one bullet in the chamber? Interesting. Yeah that would explain it, if the prosecution intends the 2nd degree just to be a gesture to the mob, and the win to be the involuntary manslaughter charge.