The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[WorldWatcher]

WW - your response is exactly my point. We're fighting about facts we simply do know have. Everything is speculation. We DO know what Zimmerman was charged with and that's what the case is ultimately about. I maintain he was overcharged for political reasons. Until I hear the facts presented at trial, that will continue to be my stance. None of us were at the scene so all we're doing is flapping our gums when it comes to the circumstances the jury will consider.

What do you think of the charge??????

You stated that Martin approached Zimmerman like it was a fact, I'm the one that questioned that and said no we don't know for a fact that is what happened.

I think the Murder 2 charge is an over charge, my opinion that it was an attempt to scare Zimmerman into a plea deal to admit quilt to a lesser charge (probably Manslaughter) and a reduced sentence.



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[WorldWatcher]

Correction - Witness #8 did not testify. But she gave statements and claims to have heard TM ask GZ why he was following him. At that point the phone went dead. According to her.

Actually her description continues on describing the mans reply, then she describes a bumping sound and that you could hear someone bump Martin.


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[tinydancer]

Correction - Witness #8 did not testify. But she gave statements and claims to have heard TM ask GZ why he was following him. At that point the phone went dead. According to her.

Actually her description continues on describing the mans reply, then she describes a bumping sound and that you could hear someone bump Martin.


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I love your cold heart approach to the case.

Here's my deal because all I care about are the facts. I know I know, "the facts ma'am just the facts" but that's where I come from on cases.

And no I'm not any expert, just a person who loves murder and crime solving.

It's those minutes when Zimmerman agrees with the 911 operator to stop following Martin to the moment that Trayvon starts smashing George that count.

I'm praying some one can fill in those blanks.

 

[tinydancer]

Correction - Witness #8 did not testify. But she gave statements and claims to have heard TM ask GZ why he was following him. At that point the phone went dead. According to her.

Actually her description continues on describing the mans reply, then she describes a bumping sound and that you could hear someone bump Martin.


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Ah ha though you are assuming that it was martin that got bumped........

 

[tinydancer]

WW - your response is exactly my point. We're fighting about facts we simply do know have. Everything is speculation. We DO know what Zimmerman was charged with and that's what the case is ultimately about. I maintain he was overcharged for political reasons. Until I hear the facts presented at trial, that will continue to be my stance. None of us were at the scene so all we're doing is flapping our gums when it comes to the circumstances the jury will consider.

What do you think of the charge??????

You stated that Martin approached Zimmerman like it was a fact, I'm the one that questioned that and said no we don't know for a fact that is what happened.

I think the Murder 2 charge is an over charge, my opinion that it was an attempt to scare Zimmerman into a plea deal to admit quilt to a lesser charge (probably Manslaughter) and a reduced sentence.



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And it failed big time.

 

[tinydancer]

I love World Watcher. Are we paying him? If not we need to. He's making sense out of this dogs breakfast.

 

[SantaFeWay]

WW - we agree M2 was overcharging.

To me, approaching and speaking first is splitting hairs and something we will never be able to resolve. Whether GZ or TM was walking towards the other or not, IDK, but it's fairly (not positively) clear that TM spoke first to GZ rather than the other way around. Whether TM was approaching him or just standing there, isn't the point. The point is that TM wanted to know why he was being followed and from there the altercation ended in his death.

My issue at this time...BABY STEPS...is whether the charge is even legitimate. I say "NO"...and so do you and many others. This means the prosecution may be spinning its wheels trying to prove something that is unprovable.

 

[SantaFeWay]

tinydancer - who will fill in those blanks? Pray tell.

 

[Zona]

please explain how Zimmerman was reaching for a cell phone that wasnt there. I am having a hard time with tat little ditty.

Oh and why is one side swearing as a fact that Martin approached Zimmerman? I keep seeing taht over and over and there is NO proof of that.

We all know for a fact Zimmerman was following Martin, correct?

 

[TW]

Just as an informational piece:

7.4 MURDER—SECOND DEGREE
§ 782.04(2), Fla.Stat.

To prove the crime of Second Degree Murder, the State must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. (Victim) is dead.

2. The death was caused by the criminal act of (defendant).

3. There was an unlawful killing of (victim) by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

Definitions.
An “act” includes a series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose.

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

1. a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and

2. is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and

3. is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

*In order to convict of Second Degree Murder, it is not necessary for the State to prove the defendant had an intent to cause death.

Case law defines a "depraved mind" as "malice"….

Malice in Law Law & Legal Definition

Malice in law refers to intent unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow-creature in a case where the law would neither justify nor to any degree excuse the intention, if the killing should take place as intended. [Mann v. State, 124 Ga. 760, 765 (Ga. 1906)]. It is an act growing out of the wicked or mischievous intention of the mind; an act showing a wanton inclination to mischief, an intention to injure or wrong, and a depraved inclination to disregard the rights of others.

Some interesting discussion on depraved mind and malice:
http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/probin/sc07-2324_Appendix BpartII.pdf

 

[TW]

Personally, I thought this was an aggravated M or manslaughter case, however.. Paraphrased: "These ******* punks always get away", may be indicative of ill will, or that may be what the state will opine.

 

[Jackson]

Good afternoon everyone, and Happy Father's Day to all the Dads out there. That means you, too, 25.

Reading back, this case is creating so much venom. I think that's because it is a true mystery in many ways. We do not know what will come into evidence yet. We do not know what happened that night once TM approached GZ. All we know is that an unarmed youth (TM was 16 years + 1 month old) is dead and a seemingly average man has been charged with M2.

If we're all going to get along, we need to cool our jets. Zimmerman will be held accountable for killing Martin, as he should be IMO. At this point, all we can intelligently discuss is the charge of M2 since nothing has come into evidence yet. That's a huge part of this case. It is what the defense is defending against. And there's no way in burning hell the prosecution can prove Zimmerman murdered TM. If not for racial tensions being ignited by the likes of Sharpton, Jackson, and Obama, not to mention the PR firm hired by Martin attorneys, then M2 would have never been charged. That is a travesty of justice just going into this case. And because of that, there are 2 wrongs and no right, just from the get-go. Hence, we have these polarized factions and, honestly, both are justified; both perspectives are valid. Martin was needlessly killed AND Zimmerman has been unjustly made a poster child for racial profiling and stricter gun laws. Both can be true - no need to fight about that. Right?

This is the most useful post on the thread so far.

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

SantaFeWay:

Martin was needlessly killed AND Zimmerman has been unjustly made a poster child for racial profiling and stricter gun laws.

Martin was needlessly killed (you said it yourself) and there is no question as to WHO killed him. It was Zimmerman. He needlessly killed a 16-year-old boy.

So, is Zimmerman really being treated unjustly? I think not, I think he's brought this all upon himself.

And of the two perceived "wrongs," I would certainly say that a 16-year-old boy walking home with his Skittles and tea being murdered is by far the worst. It's just horrible. We can't have this go unpunished, that would be a disservice to us all.

Oh, and by the way...I am a big supporter of the right to own guns and the right to protect yourself with those guns if needed. But that doesn't mean you have the right to go around provoking people and then shoot them. Which seems to be the most likely explanation of what happened in this case.

We also don't need people imagining themselves to be some kind of champions of law and order sneaking around in the night targeting innocent civilians because they jump to the conclusion that a person is up to no good. This isn't Nazi-*******-Germany.

 

[testarosa]

Happy Father's Day SOTD!

Dedicated to my baby daddy and all you dads and husbands and protectors of all that's right and fixer's of all things, including spider and snakes! Dad's rock the world!!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7sCl56PsXQ]I Dont Like Spiders and Snakes jim stafford - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

WW - your response is exactly my point. We're fighting about facts we simply do know have. Everything is speculation. We DO know what Zimmerman was charged with and that's what the case is ultimately about. I maintain he was overcharged for political reasons. Until I hear the facts presented at trial, that will continue to be my stance. None of us were at the scene so all we're doing is flapping our gums when it comes to the circumstances the jury will consider.

What do you think of the charge??????

Well, we should just shut down the thread and go home, then.

Why is it okay for you to have a "stance" while you wait to hear the facts presented? Why can't I have a "stance" also?

Or is it only okay to have a stance that is the same as your stance?

This board is all about opinions and speculation, as well as discussing facts. If we couldn't express our opinions and speculate, this entire board would pretty much be silent.

 

[Zona]

Happy fathers day to Mr. Martin. I am sorry your son was killed.

 

[Snookie]

Why didn't GZ carry mace/pepper spray instead of a gun?

Because he thought he was Wyatt Earp.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Can anyone tell me about Zimmerman's wounds?

. . . You DO know you're connected to the Internet, right?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I just noticed the word LIE is in the name Cecilie.

TM was a high school student not yet 18 = MINOR

TM was followed, reported, and confronted by GZ because of GZ's presumptions of a possible criminal intent on TM's part. Which was an erroneous presumption = INNOCENT

You're welcome.

I didn't actually require you to demonstrate to me that you're juvenile and ignorant, so I'm not planning to thank you for it.

I also didn't require a reprise of your "psychic witness" schtick, so I'm not thanking you for that, either. Feel free to stop telling me, "This happened, and this happened, and this happened" about things which NO ONE - including you - outside of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin were saw.

The more you talk, the less convinced I become that you know your own name and address without your mom sewing them into your clothes, so I'm not planning to be interested in what you "know" happened that night.

 

[SantaFeWay]

WW - your response is exactly my point. We're fighting about facts we simply do know have. Everything is speculation. We DO know what Zimmerman was charged with and that's what the case is ultimately about. I maintain he was overcharged for political reasons. Until I hear the facts presented at trial, that will continue to be my stance. None of us were at the scene so all we're doing is flapping our gums when it comes to the circumstances the jury will consider.

What do you think of the charge??????

Well, we should just shut down the thread and go home, then.

Why is it okay for you to have a "stance" while you wait to hear the facts presented? Why can't I have a "stance" also?

Or is it only okay to have a stance that is the same as your stance?

This board is all about opinions and speculation, as well as discussing facts. If we couldn't express our opinions and speculate, this entire board would pretty much be silent.

Oh be real. You know I'm not suggesting we shouldn't discuss the case OR that I feel my stance is the only viable one. How disingenuous.

All I want to do is dial it back a notch. There's such a lot of sniping going on, just as you are doing in this post. We all have our opinions. Express whatever you want to but just know you don't have any more facts about this case than the rest of us. We all come at life with our own perspective and place importance on different things.

It's not always about being right, sometimes it's more about discussing what's wrong and how we can help fix things in the future. At least it is to me. In particular here, this M2 charge was wrong. It was motivated by politics and social discord. So another victim was created (GZ) when the only victim in this case should have been TM. His death should have been dealt with fairly, not politicized. Ironically, sympathy for GZ was created by those very activists who protested to have him arrested for murder. Rather than focus on TM, the result was a focus on the unfairness dealt upon GZ. How about that?