The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Vegasgiants]

Japanese records show clearly what the Japanese government was doing, and when.

Their records are quite clear that they did not stop trying to win the war until we captured Okinawa. And after that, they were focused on getting the Soviets to help them to end the war in a draw instead of surrendering.

The first time the Japanese government showed any interest in surrendering was after the Soviet war declaration made it impossible that the Soviets would help them end the war in a draw.

For a good description of what Japan's government was doing, and when, I recommend "Japan's Decision to Surrender" by Robert J.C. Butow, and "Japan's Longest Day" by The Pacific War Research Society.



Wrong again.

So no evidence


I thought so


Dismissed

 

[Vegasgiants]

I don't care who disagrees---facts are facts. The japanese worshipped their ruler as a god---they planned on dying for their god. Hell, the fuckers would kill their own children rather than be captured in order to appease their god ruler. Their ruler called for all of them to die defending him/japan---the bombs are the only reason why they surrendered.

It's cute you have an opinion but they knew a lot more than you

 

[Turtlesoup]

It's cute you have an opinion but they knew a lot more than you

I don't like propaganda or people spinning shit. The Japanese were awful people then---they had no plans to surrender before the two bombs were dropped. These are the facts....Grow up and deal with them.

The Us could not accept anything but complete surrender from JAPAN in order to prevent them from attacking again.

 

[Open Bolt]

So no evidence

Wrong again. There is considerable evidence as to what Japan's government was thinking, and when.

Try actually reading a history book instead of gnawing on the cover.

Dismissed

You sure are.

 

[Vegasgiants]

Wrong again. There is considerable evidence as to what Japan's government was thinking, and when.

Try actually reading a history book instead of gnawing on the cover.



You sure are.

I see you post no evidence


Dismissed

 

[Vegasgiants]

I don't like propaganda or people spinning shit. The Japanese were awful people then---they had no plans to surrender before the two bombs were dropped. These are the facts....Grow up and deal with them.

Do you know more about the war than Admiral Halsey, Leahy, MacArthur, Eisenhower, and lemay did?

 

[Open Bolt]

It's cute you have an opinion but they knew a lot more than you

Unlikely that they knew more than Turtlesoup. But regardless, appeals to authority are logical fallacies for a reason.

Do you know more about the war than Admiral Halsey, Leahy, MacArthur, Eisenhower, and lemay did?

He probably does. I certainly do.

 

[Vegasgiants]

Unlikely that they knew more than Turtlesoup. But regardless, appeals to authority are logical fallacies for a reason.

That is hilarious


HAHAHAHAHA

 

[Open Bolt]

I see you post no evidence

Wrong. I referred you to two reputable history books.

Dismissed

You sure are.

 

[Vegasgiants]

Wrong. I referred you to two reputable history books.



You sure are.

Quote them directly

 

[Open Bolt]

Quote them directly

I'm not going to sit here and type an entire book into a messageboard.

If you want to learn, go read them. If you chose ignorance, that's your choice.

 

[Turtlesoup]

Do you know more about the war than Admiral Halsey, Leahy, MacArthur, Eisenhower, and lemay did?

I am not sure what comments that you want to claim mean something---But in Halseys case, I know that he was grossly inept and kept on likely because his daddy was some military higher up just like with fuck up drunk McCAIN in Nam and later on in the US. His comments mean nothing. He should have been tossed from the military on atleast two occasions that resulted in others dying that I know of. And then tossed in the BRIG.

I have no clue who Lemay is nor do I care.

I like MacArthur atleast on some thing--the man had an ego that got others hurt at times, but his bravado did throw the enemy some screwballs.

Never Liked Eisenhower and i don't know what you think Leahy did that gives him any weight on this.

AGain, I am only concerned with facts--dropping the bombs ended the war and stopped Japans aggressions saving millions.

 

[Dayton3]

So you were afraid?

HAHAHAHAHA

Afraid of what? The U.S. wasn't involved in a significant war when I got out of high school or college.

 

[Mushroom]

And yet he did go on the radio or the people of Japan would not accept surrender

Says who?

They accepted going to war without hearing him say so. All you keep doing is digging yourself in more and more by showing you do not seem to understand Japan of that era. They never heard him speak, ever. This was a nation that would follow orders without question even to their deaths. Just because somebody said they spoke for the Emperor.

 

[Mushroom]

You have also not backed up your claims about Japan being willing to surrender before the atomic bombs were dropped.

It does not matter.

He has said the same thing to me, when I have provided direct quotes and cables from Naotake Sato, the Ambassador to the Soviet Union. How he himself castigated the Prime and Foreign Ministers for not being serious about surrender, and that they would be destroyed if they did not start to get serious.

I have provided a day by day account of the various votes of the Big Six, and when they changed their minds.

I have given all that and more, with references. He simply rejects them, and insists that no references were provided.

 

[AZrailwhale]

It's unfortunate that some people come to the history forum, but are clearly unwilling if not unable to actually discuss history. The study of history involves more than just repeating comfortable narratives like some kind of tribal chant. Those without the courage to look directly at the facts of history really should go somewhere else for empty self-affirmation. Leave it to the adults to actually discuss history.

We are willing to discuss history. Not fiction. Maybe you’re from some alternate timestream where Japan actually did try to surrender. But it just didn’t happen here. In this timeline Japan just wanted a do-over with no consequences.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Japan was contained
Their Navy was neutralized and they lacked the pilots to challenge our air superiority

But we had THE BOMB

The ability to end the war under our terms.

The question is……did those terms need to be three days between bombs

They were still murdering thousands of Chinese and Indo-Chinese civilians every week and hundreds of POWs every week. The military junta running Japan wasn’t prepared to surrender under ANY circumstances. It was willing to fight to the last child to retain Japanese honor that would have been lost by surrendering no matter how adverse the correlation of forces was. The Japanese government knew it had lost the war after Midway, by the time we invaded the Mariannas and destroyed the naval air power they had strained to rebuild they knew the war was irrevocably lost, after they lost most of the remains of their navy in the Philippines they absolutely knew they had lost. But they never once made the phone call to say “We surrender”. No instead, they kept killing their own people and Allied soldiers and sailors in the belief that if they spilled enough blood, they would be granted the armistice that would allow them to keep their ill-gotten gains and escape punishment for their war crimes.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I assume that you are referring to the post where you quoted all that hysterical whining from Ike and Leahy and the like? If not you'll need to clarify what post of yours you mean.

It is impossible to know with 100% certainty if it is true that Japan was secretly willing to surrender and just decided to wait and let the war drag out without telling us.

But it is certainly possible that it is true.

It was a really bad move on Japan's part if that's what they did.

And again, even if it is true, so what?

By the way, in my original post when I declined to say it was false, and merely said "so what", you could have inferred my acceptance that it could be true.

Had I thought that it was definitely not true, I would have challenged it as not being true.

But we do know they were unwilling to surrender. We have all the records of the imperial war council meetings where they made the plans to fight to the past man, woman and child rather than suffer the dishonor of surrender.

 

[AZrailwhale]

In July 1945, once we had a bomb, there was no longer a need to invade

You are right. We could continued fire bombing every city, town and hamlet, then nuked whatever was left standing by the firestorms. We would have killed millions of Japanese soldiers and civilians and thousands of allied POWs in the process. Or we could have spent years blockading Japan and starving the entire population to death while fighting a war against the million plus a Japanese soldiers in China, while uncounted millions of Chinese and Indi-Chinese civilians died

 

[Unkotare]

You are fucking lying-----

....

Direct quotes and historical documents aren't "lying."