The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Markle]

So, you're saying that we used the atomic bomb for the sake of all those countries, and not solely for our own interests? Was the US military working for them?

Where did I say that? I provided a quote describing the barbarian actions of Japan and a link.

If you want to believe Japan would have unconditionally surrendered without being totally crushed you are either intentionally ignorant or a complete fool. Your choice.

 

[Unkotare]

....

If you want to believe Japan would have unconditionally surrendered without being totally crushed .....

The terms being sought were exactly the ones we eventually accepted anyway.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Right, my delusions and the delusion of every civilized country on earth that has signed weapons treaties and rules of war treaties. We are all delusional, and you have a lot to teach us.

"Treaties" my aching red ass. Exactly what treaty does your fevered brain tell you we had with Japan and violated? What treaties did Japan have with anybody that they actually honored during WWII? They attacked us without any declaration of war and with considerable slaughter of both our military and civilians. Who violated any peace treaties we had with them? During the war they made no pretense of abiding by the Geneva (or any other)Convention as it applied to military or civilians. They raped murdered enslaved plundered and occasionally ate both POWs and civilians they captured. A Nation that doesn't act like a civilized Nation has no reason to expect to be treated as one. American leaders have a responsibility to the American people; not those who have decided to make themselves our mortal enemies. It would have been totally irresponsible to send our boys into very great risk of death or dismemberment unless it was absolutely necessary to winning the war. It wasn't. They didn't. We won. End of story...almost. We then spent a very great deal time trouble and money on rebuilding Japan which contributed greatly to their prosperity today.

 

[Unkotare]

...We then spent a very great deal time trouble and money on rebuilding Japan which contributed greatly to their prosperity today.

You really think we did that because we wanted to be 'nice'?

 

[Markle]

I believe the idea is that our enemy was so evil, nothing we did to them could ever be considered immoral or unethical.

The Japanese Army never intended to surrender. The Army was the Government. Even after 2 atomic bombs and the Soviets attacking them the Army REFUSED to surrender. The Emperor who was seen as a LIVING God by the Army ordered the surrender. The Army Attempted a Coup to stop the Emperor from surrendering.

100% true.

 

[9thIDdoc]

You really think we did that because we wanted to be 'nice'?

Actually yes I do. Do you think Japan would have been as nice if the shoe had been on the other foot? I think history indicates otherwise.

 

[HenryBHough]

It should have been done sooner. Opportunity lost to save thousands of American lifes.

True, though, that American lives WERE held in high value in those days.

Today? Not so much.

 

[Markle]

You really think we did that because we wanted to be 'nice'?

Actually, yes. We wanted a long lasting peace. Which is exactly what we have today. NOTHING you can hypothize about could have a better outcome, only a far worse outcome.

Why do you demand a inferior outcome?

 

[Mushroom]

America didn't have dozens more bombs however in August 1945.

The problem with lying is the fact that the Empire of Japan might have known the truth and it would have destroyed American credibility.

Here is the amazing thing. Japan actually had started to believe that they did.

On 8 August, US B-29 pilot Lieutenant Marcus McDilda was captured outside of Osaka, where he was quickly captured and beaten by civilians before he was dragged to the Kempeitai. There he was tortured and repeatedly asked about the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. In reality he knew nothing of this, but after being threatened with execution he told them that the US had at least 100 of them, and that Tokyo and Kyoto were to be the next target within a matter of days.

As you know, when atoms are split, there are a lot of pluses and minuses released. Well, we've taken these and put them in a huge container and separated them from each other with a lead shield. When the box is dropped out of a plane, we melt the lead shield and the pluses and minuses come together. When that happens, it causes a tremendous bolt of lightning and all the atmosphere over a city is pushed back! Then when the atmosphere rolls back, it brings about a tremendous thunderclap, which knocks down everything beneath it.

Recorded confession of Lt. McDilda

This was a complete fabrication, but it was close enough to the effects witnessed that he was soon moved to Tokyo to undergo further interrogation until the war ended.

But the fact is, the next bomb was already in shipment to the Pacific at the time of the surrender, and the next was already being prepared for shipment in California. And even with the slowdown in production after the war and the use of two bombs at Operation Crossroads in 1946 with those two bombs, the inventory still stood at 9 at the end of 1946. And that was at the post-war reduction in the devices until after the Soviet test in 1950.

So a dozen bombs by the end of 1946? That is not really questioned if the war went on that long.

 

[Markle]

The terms being sought were exactly the ones we eventually accepted anyway.

So you are intentionally ignorant. Got it!

 

[Mushroom]

Economic sanctions are a serious matter. If FDR had deescalated our conflict with Japan and Japan had attacked the Soviet Union, I don't know that that would have seriously hampered their war effort against the Germans.

So is slaughtering hundreds and thousands of civilians.

You are aware of the sporting contest that was carried in Japanese Newspapers during the Massacre of Nanking, are you not? "The contest to behead 100 people with a sword"? It is a real thing, where two Japanese Officers decided to stage a contest, to see who could behead the most people first. It was actually reported in most Japanese newspapers of the time, normally on the sports page.

The above image was after it was announced it had gone into "extra innings", as they were considered tied at 106 to 105.

Toshiaki Mukai and Tsuyoshi Noda were eventually tried and executed for this at their war crimes trial in 1948.

De-escalation would have been freaking easy. Japan should have stopped their brutal invasion and slaughter. You are aware that most place the actual casualties in China by the Japanese at somewhere between 10 and 15 million, right? Why are you whining about the US backing down, while that was going on?

 

[Unkotare]

It should have been done sooner. Opportunity lost to save thousands of American lifes.

True, though, that American lives WERE held in high value in those days.

Today? Not so much.

American lives were not held in high value by that piece of shit FDR. That’s for damn sure.

 

[Mushroom]

The terms being sought were exactly the ones we eventually accepted anyway.

No, they were not.

Japan was still wanting a status quo ante bellum up until after the bombs. They were trying over and over to get any country they were neutral to propose their own intention of ending the war. And it was not a surrender. They would leave all territory they had conquered after the start of December 1941, and the Allies would do the same thing. The Philippines would remain neutral and demilitarized under a joint US-Japanese leadership, and there would be no war crime trials.

In other words, pretend the war never happened, but still neutralize the Philippines.

Needless to say, not a single country would even agree to present that to the Allied Powers. Even the Soviet Ambassador wrote a letter to Stalin with the proposal, saying that he believed the Japanese leadership was delusional and maybe even insane if they believed that the Soviets would even transmit that, let alone the Allied powers accept it. And Stalin returned directions that the ambassador was to stall the Japanese.

That was only accepted because the leadership realized their entire nation and the Imperial Family was at risk. But prior to 6 August they were unwilling to accept anything other than a reset to 1941. And not even the Swiss, Soviets, or Sweden would forward their demands to the Allied Powers. They all knew the Japanese proposals would never be accepted, and they themselves would lose credibility in the eyes of the Allied Powers for even proposing such a silly proposal.

There was an opportunity to open an actual dialog that might have ended the ear sooner, but once again the Japanese killed it. Literally.

When the Potsdam Declaration was received in Japan, the only response by the government was the famous Mokusatsu speech, by Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki.

I believe the Joint Proclamation by the three countries is nothing but a rehash of the Cairo Declaration. As for the Government, it does not find any important value in it, and there is no other recourse but to ignore it entirely (mokusatsu) and resolutely fight for the successful conclusion of this war.'

And Japan did exactly that, it was never referred to again. They never changed their attempt to end the war, they never even tried to indicate through anybody they were willing to discuss terms. They continued to act like they were winning the war.

 

[Unkotare]

The terms being sought were exactly the ones we eventually accepted anyway.

^^^

 

[Mushroom]

^^^

And point out a single one of those attempts prior to August that was anywhere even close to what was finally negotiated.

Come on, show us.

 

[Mushroom]

Hmmm....but YOU can, huh?

A lot better than you can, poopy.

If you have not noticed, I quote a lot of actual original sources. Speeches by the Japanese leadership itself. Actual discussions of how the individuals in the Imperial Council, and even who voted what and when. I have even discussed the decoding of Japanese dispatches to their own diplomatic staff.

Even those back and forth between Tojo, and Naotake Sato. A previous foreign minister and Ambassador to the Soviet Union at the time. And even he thought that the attempt would fail, because Japan itself had no intent to actually surrender but was only hoping to delay things and maybe get the Soviets in on their side.

When even the very top Diplomat of the Japanese Government to the Soviets knows that the proposal would fail, nobody else should ever take it seriously either.

 

[Unkotare]

A lot better than you can, ....

What gives you that idea?

 

[Unkotare]

They enabled a government that did it .....

Enabled a government they had no say in?

 

[Unkotare]

Article clipped from Chicago Tribune

Clipping found in Chicago Tribune published in Chicago, Illinois on 8/14/1965.

www.newspapers.com

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And point out a single one of those attempts prior to August that was anywhere even close to what was finally negotiated.

Come on, show us.

he is referring to attempts by Japanese outside the government, people with no authority and no power,