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The rights and title over the Occupied Enemy Territory that was renounced by the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic at the conclusion of the War were NOT placed in the hands of the inhabitants.
So, foreigners with guns can prevent the people's right to declare independence.
Where is that legal?
Link?
Every word of that is wrong.
First, the Jewish people are not foreigners in their own homeland.
Second, it wasn't (and isn't) guns which gave the Jewish people the right to self-determination in their own homeland -- it is the inherent right of all peoples to self-determination and sovereignty. The guns only became necessary when hostile Arabs decided to prevent the Jewish people from exercising their inherent, inviolable right to self-determination, as confirmed and written in international law by the international community from 1920 onward. In fact, you are (again) inverting the truth. It is the Arabs who are STILL (!) attempting to use guns and violence to reverse and erase the actual, declared and recognized independence of Israel. With absolutely zero effect, except to entrench the Jewish peoples need for safety and security.
Third, no one is preventing the Arab Palestinians from declaring independence. In fact, they HAVE declared independence, in 1988. Their declaration is complete. And look! no one prevented it. In fact, Hamas can declare independence in Gaza today, tomorrow or next week. They meet the necessary criteria of: government, people, territory and treating with other states.
And to answer your question about legality: the accepted legal standard in the world where different, distinct ethnic/cultural groups within a territory are each vying for self-determination and sovereignty is to partition the territory. In other words, the accepted legal standard is that self-determination trumps territorial integrity. Witness former Ottoman Empire, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Sudan, etc, etc, etc. Its only the Arab Palestinians who insist on special treatment. Why is that, do you think?Yes they did. They moved in under the gun of the British military.Second, it wasn't (and isn't) guns which gave the Jewish people the right to self-determination in their own homeland -- it is the inherent right of all peoples to self-determination and sovereignty.
Nobody has the "right" to violate the rights of others. The Zionists moved in from Europe, under the gun, and violated the rights of the Palestinians. That is an act of aggression.
Where was Israel for 4000 years?Link?There was never such a country as Palestine
Who was the President of Palestine in 1946? LOL don’t need a link for something that doesn’t exist
How much do you earn from here to spread false propaganda. Whole world knows Israel is created on the suffering of people of Holly Land with out any mandate or false mandate when UN has member from wwii coalition. Now tell me you are zombi or not.Then don't talk nonsense, if Palestine don't exist. Does Israel exist? NOOOOOOO, Never 4000.Was Israel exist?The Patriots won the last SB. I don’t need a link to prove it. Palestine never existed as a country. I dont Need a link to prove it. Try to follow along.
Israel never ever exist in 4000 years of history. Means you don't have prove.
That is not even the topic? And why 4K years? That number is arbitrary.
Yes it does. It began in 1947. Listen Zombie. I am Not an Islamist so I think for myself. Who was the President of Palestine in 1946? Answer that. I can name Israel’s presidents from 1947 and beyond. You zombies can never answer simple questions. And your English sucks.
I am waiting for you to tell me where was Israel before Palestine? Zoooommmmbbbbbiii.Palestine does not exist. Israel does not exit. India does not exist. Pakistan does not exist.Then don't talk nonsense, if Palestine don't exist. Does Israel exist? NOOOOOOO, Never 4000.
Now we are done undoing countries and regions which never existed.
I am waiting for him to tell me who the President of “Palestine” was in 1946.
It didn’t exist and then it did in 1947 on empty nomadic land owned by the UK. Now answer me. Who was the President of “Palestine” in 1946? Hurry up Zombie.
Not owned by UK invaded by UK and now invaded by Israel. It is not legitimate country and I am not bound to answer your stupid question.
How much do you earn from here to spread false propaganda. Whole world knows Israel is created on the suffering of people of Holly Land with out any mandate or false mandate when UN has member from wwii coalition. Now tell me you are zombi or not.Then don't talk nonsense, if Palestine don't exist. Does Israel exist? NOOOOOOO, Never 4000.Was Israel exist?
Israel never ever exist in 4000 years of history. Means you don't have prove.
That is not even the topic? And why 4K years? That number is arbitrary.
Yes it does. It began in 1947. Listen Zombie. I am Not an Islamist so I think for myself. Who was the President of Palestine in 1946? Answer that. I can name Israel’s presidents from 1947 and beyond. You zombies can never answer simple questions. And your English sucks.
You have a valid point.. The way France, England, Russia carved up the Mid East after the Ottoman Empire was a bad atrocious act.. Very arrogant. And not that smart... Sikes -- Picot had a cup of tea and a biscuit and drew 3 lines on a map and called it day... And the world is STILL PAYING for that arrogance and stupidity today...
But neither Muslims, Jews, Israelis and Palestinians had much of a say in that matter... And the ultra nationalism in Arab Mid East today is a large part of the pain and suffering of the Arab countries today... ALL BECAUSE the British FORCED nation-states with phony boundaries...
Blame THEM -- not Jews....
Would it be unfair to describe Zionism as a form of Jewish ultra-nationalism?
How much do you earn from here to spread false propaganda. Whole world knows Israel is created on the suffering of people of Holly Land with out any mandate or false mandate when UN has member from wwii coalition. Now tell me you are zombi or not.Then don't talk nonsense, if Palestine don't exist. Does Israel exist? NOOOOOOO, Never 4000.That is not even the topic? And why 4K years? That number is arbitrary.
Yes it does. It began in 1947. Listen Zombie. I am Not an Islamist so I think for myself. Who was the President of Palestine in 1946? Answer that. I can name Israel’s presidents from 1947 and beyond. You zombies can never answer simple questions. And your English sucks.
You have a valid point.. The way France, England, Russia carved up the Mid East after the Ottoman Empire was a bad atrocious act.. Very arrogant. And not that smart... Sikes -- Picot had a cup of tea and a biscuit and drew 3 lines on a map and called it day... And the world is STILL PAYING for that arrogance and stupidity today...
But neither Muslims, Jews, Israelis and Palestinians had much of a say in that matter... And the ultra nationalism in Arab Mid East today is a large part of the pain and suffering of the Arab countries today... ALL BECAUSE the British FORCED nation-states with phony boundaries...
Blame THEM -- not Jews....
Would it be unfair to describe Zionism as a form of Jewish ultra-nationalism?
How much do you earn from here to spread false propaganda. Whole world knows Israel is created on the suffering of people of Holly Land with out any mandate or false mandate when UN has member from wwii coalition. Now tell me you are zombi or not.Then don't talk nonsense, if Palestine don't exist. Does Israel exist? NOOOOOOO, Never 4000.That is not even the topic? And why 4K years? That number is arbitrary.
Yes it does. It began in 1947. Listen Zombie. I am Not an Islamist so I think for myself. Who was the President of Palestine in 1946? Answer that. I can name Israel’s presidents from 1947 and beyond. You zombies can never answer simple questions. And your English sucks.
You have a valid point.. The way France, England, Russia carved up the Mid East after the Ottoman Empire was a bad atrocious act.. Very arrogant. And not that smart... Sikes -- Picot had a cup of tea and a biscuit and drew 3 lines on a map and called it day... And the world is STILL PAYING for that arrogance and stupidity today...
But neither Muslims, Jews, Israelis and Palestinians had much of a say in that matter... And the ultra nationalism in Arab Mid East today is a large part of the pain and suffering of the Arab countries today... ALL BECAUSE the British FORCED nation-states with phony boundaries...
Blame THEM -- not Jews....
Would it be unfair to describe Zionism as a form of Jewish ultra-nationalism?
Way I look at it is Zionism had a different mission and structure PRIOR to 1948.. It was a global "alliance" of founders intent on creating a state as a safe harbor for Jews.. PREFERABLY in the Holy land.. It held world-wide "congresses" (i think) every year and LOBBIED heavily world-wide.
After 1948, it did became a form of nationalism.. And has a newer mission to sustain an actual nation with a heritage and a mission.. Stop short of the "ultra" part, because Israel has never had any real objection to being neighborly with Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and EXTREMELY tolerant of other religions and practices..
But they live in a neighborhood that's a bit "rough" and unstable... Not their fault.. Always remember to blame the Brits... LOL...
The U.S. State Department Digest of International Law says that the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne provided for the application of the principles of state succession to the "A" Mandates. The Treaty of Versailles (1920) provisionally recognized the former Ottoman communities as independent nations. It also required Germany to recognize the disposition of the former Ottoman territories and to recognize the new states laid down within their boundaries. The Treaty of Lausanne required the newly created states that acquired the territory to pay annuities on the Ottoman public debt, and to assume responsibility for the administration of concessions that had been granted by the Ottomans. A dispute regarding the status of the territories was settled by an Arbitrator appointed by the Council of the League of Nations. It was decided that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created states according to the terms of the applicable post-war treaties. In its Judgment No. 5, The Mavrommatis Palestine Concessions, the Permanent Court of International Justice also decided that Palestine was responsible as the successor state for concessions granted by Ottoman authorities. The Courts of Palestine and Great Britain decided that title to the properties shown on the Ottoman Civil list had been ceded to the government of Palestine as an allied successor state.[16]Why did you say it if you can't prove it?Link?There was never such a country as Palestine
Who was the President of Palestine in 1946? LOL don’t need a link for something that doesn’t exist
The Patriots won the last SB. I don’t need a link to prove it. Palestine never existed as a country. I dont Need a link to prove it. Try to follow along.
Lol like you don't.Where was Israel for 4000 years?
Who cares about 4K yrs lol.
4K is arbitrary. 1946 is pretty real with TVs and everything. Still no Palestine. Funny right?
Then it is pretty real too, with TVs and everything that Israel pose on holly land by force, by false mandate by tiny UN at the time.
Its all rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll real.
How can a mandate be false? If I own a house and you rent in it. I can kick you out and sell or give it to whom ever I want. You then tried to take it back by direct force and lost and now you whine to the same UN. I don’t follow your logic at all. The was no “Palestine” it was British land with nomads living in it. They gave it to the Jews and the Jews asked others to live there but they left. Now that it’s flourishing you want it back. Sorry it doesn’t work that way. There are 50+ other Islamist countries so feel free to move there
It was not British land. The Mandates were trustees.The was no “Palestine” it was British land with nomads living in it.
Nobody has the "right" to violate the rights of others. The Zionists moved in from Europe, under the gun, and violated the rights of the Palestinians. That is an act of aggression.
Exactly. Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others. Self-determination is an inherent, inviolable right belonging to all peoples. (You've OFTEN said that exact thing). Thus,nobody has the right to violate the right to self-determination of the Jewish people. It would be an act of aggression to do so. (Also no one has the right to violate the right to self-determination of the Arab Palestinian people.)
Now, the standard in the world with multiple peoples desiring self-determination is to partition the territory and give them both self-determination.
It was not "the territory," it was Palestine. The Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity.is to partition the territory
So, foreigners with guns can prevent the people's right to declare independence.
Where is that legal?
Link?
Every word of that is wrong.
First, the Jewish people are not foreigners in their own homeland.
Second, it wasn't (and isn't) guns which gave the Jewish people the right to self-determination in their own homeland -- it is the inherent right of all peoples to self-determination and sovereignty. The guns only became necessary when hostile Arabs decided to prevent the Jewish people from exercising their inherent, inviolable right to self-determination, as confirmed and written in international law by the international community from 1920 onward. In fact, you are (again) inverting the truth. It is the Arabs who are STILL (!) attempting to use guns and violence to reverse and erase the actual, declared and recognized independence of Israel. With absolutely zero effect, except to entrench the Jewish peoples need for safety and security.
Third, no one is preventing the Arab Palestinians from declaring independence. In fact, they HAVE declared independence, in 1988. Their declaration is complete. And look! no one prevented it. In fact, Hamas can declare independence in Gaza today, tomorrow or next week. They meet the necessary criteria of: government, people, territory and treating with other states.
And to answer your question about legality: the accepted legal standard in the world where different, distinct ethnic/cultural groups within a territory are each vying for self-determination and sovereignty is to partition the territory. In other words, the accepted legal standard is that self-determination trumps territorial integrity. Witness former Ottoman Empire, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Sudan, etc, etc, etc. Its only the Arab Palestinians who insist on special treatment. Why is that, do you think?Yes they did. They moved in under the gun of the British military.Second, it wasn't (and isn't) guns which gave the Jewish people the right to self-determination in their own homeland -- it is the inherent right of all peoples to self-determination and sovereignty.
Nobody has the "right" to violate the rights of others. The Zionists moved in from Europe, under the gun, and violated the rights of the Palestinians. That is an act of aggression.
When you're under occupation by the BRITISH --- you follow their rules. There's a reason Britain was assigned that job to administer that part of the Ottoman Empire.. "The gun of the British military" seems to imply they had rightful title to the land and NOT the Palestinians or the Jews.. Their disposition of land took into account BOTH those interests when they left...
Not so. The Mandates had a non annexation policy. The land was ceded to the respective new states."The gun of the British military" seems to imply they had rightful title to the land and NOT the Palestinians or the Jews..
Why blame to Brits? They have gone almost 80 years has been passed. It sound like that snake has gone 80 years ago, you are beating the line left on ground. Means you can not put owner of the land into camps and start calling owner yourself, it unfair and unacceptable.How much do you earn from here to spread false propaganda. Whole world knows Israel is created on the suffering of people of Holly Land with out any mandate or false mandate when UN has member from wwii coalition. Now tell me you are zombi or not.Then don't talk nonsense, if Palestine don't exist. Does Israel exist? NOOOOOOO, Never 4000.
Yes it does. It began in 1947. Listen Zombie. I am Not an Islamist so I think for myself. Who was the President of Palestine in 1946? Answer that. I can name Israel’s presidents from 1947 and beyond. You zombies can never answer simple questions. And your English sucks.
You have a valid point.. The way France, England, Russia carved up the Mid East after the Ottoman Empire was a bad atrocious act.. Very arrogant. And not that smart... Sikes -- Picot had a cup of tea and a biscuit and drew 3 lines on a map and called it day... And the world is STILL PAYING for that arrogance and stupidity today...
But neither Muslims, Jews, Israelis and Palestinians had much of a say in that matter... And the ultra nationalism in Arab Mid East today is a large part of the pain and suffering of the Arab countries today... ALL BECAUSE the British FORCED nation-states with phony boundaries...
Blame THEM -- not Jews....
Would it be unfair to describe Zionism as a form of Jewish ultra-nationalism?
Way I look at it is Zionism had a different mission and structure PRIOR to 1948.. It was a global "alliance" of founders intent on creating a state as a safe harbor for Jews.. PREFERABLY in the Holy land.. It held world-wide "congresses" (i think) every year and LOBBIED heavily world-wide.
After 1948, it did became a form of nationalism.. And has a newer mission to sustain an actual nation with a heritage and a mission.. Stop short of the "ultra" part, because Israel has never had any real objection to being neighborly with Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and EXTREMELY tolerant of other religions and practices..
But they live in a neighborhood that's a bit "rough" and unstable... Not their fault.. Always remember to blame the Brits... LOL...
I mean we should delete those posters posts who are responsible for derailment. means who started different debate than topic itself.This thread was created in order to attempt to fix the significant derailment of another thread without having to delete posts.
The topic of this thread is one that comes up with regularity in IP, and is also a frequent derailer of active threads so it will now have a thread of it's own which will be pinned as a "stickie".
I apologize ahead of time for the bumpy discontinuous beginnig of this, but I think it will smooth out as discussion goes on.
The topic is: The history involving the creation of Israel, the British Mandate, and the applicable actions of the UN in that history.
Nobody has the "right" to violate the rights of others. The Zionists moved in from Europe, under the gun, and violated the rights of the Palestinians. That is an act of aggression.
Exactly. Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others. Self-determination is an inherent, inviolable right belonging to all peoples. (You've OFTEN said that exact thing). Thus,nobody has the right to violate the right to self-determination of the Jewish people. It would be an act of aggression to do so. (Also no one has the right to violate the right to self-determination of the Arab Palestinian people.)
Now, the standard in the world with multiple peoples desiring self-determination is to partition the territory and give them both self-determination.It was not "the territory," it was Palestine. The Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity.is to partition the territory
Nobody has the "right" to violate the rights of others. The Zionists moved in from Europe, under the gun, and violated the rights of the Palestinians. That is an act of aggression.
Exactly. Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others. Self-determination is an inherent, inviolable right belonging to all peoples. (You've OFTEN said that exact thing). Thus,nobody has the right to violate the right to self-determination of the Jewish people. It would be an act of aggression to do so. (Also no one has the right to violate the right to self-determination of the Arab Palestinian people.)
Now, the standard in the world with multiple peoples desiring self-determination is to partition the territory and give them both self-determination.It was not "the territory," it was Palestine. The Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity.is to partition the territory
(COMMENT)It was not British land. The Mandates were trustees.
(COMMENT)It was not "the territory," it was Palestine. The Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity.
(COMMENT)Not so. The Mandates had a non annexation policy. The land was ceded to the respective new states.
