The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

RoccoR

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: The question was answered, you just did not comprehend the answer.

But when the Jordanians cut all ties with the West Bank, that was a case of no sovereign control, except for when the Israelis immediately filled that vacuum in the West Bank.
You didn't answer the question. (No surprise.) What sovereign territory did Egypt and Jordan occupy. And when an occupation releases the occupied should the territory be maintained by the original sovereigns?
(COMMENT)
(put another way)

Neither Egypt nor Jordan occupied territory sovereign to any other country. They both occupied Territory that was transferred and under the protection of the International Trustee System.

Sovereignty has no play or role in the definition of "occupation." Egypt's and Jordan's occupation was the use of force in a manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations (Chapters I & XII).


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Most Respectfully,
R
 

P F Tinmore

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: The question was answered, you just did not comprehend the answer.

But when the Jordanians cut all ties with the West Bank, that was a case of no sovereign control, except for when the Israelis immediately filled that vacuum in the West Bank.
You didn't answer the question. (No surprise.) What sovereign territory did Egypt and Jordan occupy. And when an occupation releases the occupied should the territory be maintained by the original sovereigns?
(COMMENT)
(put another way)

Neither Egypt nor Jordan occupied territory sovereign to any other country. They both occupied Territory that was transferred and under the protection of the International Trustee System.

Sovereignty has no play or role in the definition of "occupation." Egypt's and Jordan's occupation was the use of force in a manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations (Chapters I & XII).


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Most Respectfully,
R
So then, why does Israel claim that the occupied Palestinian territory is disputed?
 

RoccoR

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: To assume that the conflict is all about the sovereignty over land is to admit, the actual deep-rooted problems are truly understood. Remember, the opposite of "disputed territory" is "undisputed territory." Even the Arab Palestinians have trouble articulating what the central issues are. But clearly, to say the territory is "undisputed" is representative of the conflict, either actually or politically.


NOTE: I don't speek on behalf of the Israeli Government.

How does this question make sense in realtioship to what I said in Posting #962?
So then, why does Israel claim that the occupied Palestinian territory is disputed?
(COMMENT)


When you ask this question, you ask it as if the Israeli Government has made a formal claim to territory before a judicial body having jurisdiction; or to some domestic body having Title and Rights. I don't know that such a claim has ever been made by the Israeli Government. Although it is more probably true that the Israeli Government had defended itself against various amplified allegations made by Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) claims played out in the media for entertainment.

• Who (what body) makes the formal complaint against Israel on the matter of territory? Is there such a formal complaint on file?
• What exactly is the complaint? And what remedy does this undefined body seek?
• To what judicial body do the Arab Palestinians (again the undefined body) file the complaint? When was the formal complaint filed?

The question suggests that the Occupied Palestinian Territory is NOT considered disputed territory. Who makes that claim?

Give me some idea about the claim. Who made it, what specifically is claimed, when was the claim made, and to whom.

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Most Respectfully,

R
 
Last edited:

P F Tinmore

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: To assume that the conflict is all about the sovereignty over land is to admit, the actual deep-rooted problems are truly understood. Remember, the opposite of "disputed territory" is "undisputed territory." Even the Arab Palestinians have trouble articulating what the central issues are. But clearly, to say the territory is "undisputed" is representative of the conflict, either actually or politically.


NOTE: I don't speek on behalf of the Israeli Government.

How does this question make sense in realtioship to what I said in Posting #962?
So then, why does Israel claim that the occupied Palestinian territory is disputed?
(COMMENT)


When you ask this question, you ask it as if the Israeli Government has made a formal claim to territory before a judicial body having jurisdiction; or to some domestic body having Title and Rights. I don't know that such a claim has ever been made by the Israeli Government. Although it is more probably true that the Israeli Government had defended itself against various amplified allegations made by Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) claims played out in the media for entertainment.

• Who (what body) makes the formal complaint against Israel on the matter of territory? Is there such a formal complaint on file?
• What exactly is the complaint? And what remedy does this undefined body seek?
• To what judicial body do the Arab Palestinians (again the undefined body) file the complaint? When was the formal complaint filed?

The question suggests that the Occupied Palestinian Territory is NOT considered disputed territory. Who makes that claim?

Give me some idea about the claim. Who made it, what specifically is claimed, when was the claim made, and to whom.

SIGIL PAIR.png

Most Respectfully,

R
The Palestinians (not the bantustan government) say that Israel is 1948 occupied Palestine. The West Bank and Gaza are 1967 occupied Palestine.

I have seen nothing showing this to be incorrect. Whenever I ask, I get word salad. Everybody starts dancing.
 

Hollie

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: To assume that the conflict is all about the sovereignty over land is to admit, the actual deep-rooted problems are truly understood. Remember, the opposite of "disputed territory" is "undisputed territory." Even the Arab Palestinians have trouble articulating what the central issues are. But clearly, to say the territory is "undisputed" is representative of the conflict, either actually or politically.


NOTE: I don't speek on behalf of the Israeli Government.

How does this question make sense in realtioship to what I said in Posting #962?
So then, why does Israel claim that the occupied Palestinian territory is disputed?
(COMMENT)


When you ask this question, you ask it as if the Israeli Government has made a formal claim to territory before a judicial body having jurisdiction; or to some domestic body having Title and Rights. I don't know that such a claim has ever been made by the Israeli Government. Although it is more probably true that the Israeli Government had defended itself against various amplified allegations made by Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) claims played out in the media for entertainment.

• Who (what body) makes the formal complaint against Israel on the matter of territory? Is there such a formal complaint on file?
• What exactly is the complaint? And what remedy does this undefined body seek?
• To what judicial body do the Arab Palestinians (again the undefined body) file the complaint? When was the formal complaint filed?

The question suggests that the Occupied Palestinian Territory is NOT considered disputed territory. Who makes that claim?

Give me some idea about the claim. Who made it, what specifically is claimed, when was the claim made, and to whom.

SIGIL PAIR.png

Most Respectfully,

R
The Palestinians (not the bantustan government) say that Israel is 1948 occupied Palestine. The West Bank and Gaza are 1967 occupied Palestine.

I have seen nothing showing this to be incorrect. Whenever I ask, I get word salad. Everybody starts dancing.
The Arabs-Moslems ''saying something'' is hardly a convincing argument.
 

RoccoR

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Palestinians (not the bantustan government) say that Israel is 1948 occupied Palestine. The West Bank and Gaza are 1967 occupied Palestine.

I have seen nothing showing this to be incorrect. Whenever I ask, I get word salad. Everybody starts dancing.
(COMMENT)

I asked over a half-dozen questions. You could not answer a single one. Why is that? Well, part of it, is rooted in the "dispute" that you cannot explain who the "Palestinians
(not the bantustan government)" are...

The Arab League said that the PLO is the sole representative...
(today that would be the President of the Palestinian National Authority); Mahmoud Abbas. However, you say "not the bantustan government.

When the Arab League said (1974) that "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated;" who were they identifying?

What territory was liberated and when?


When the UN granted non-member observer status (2012), the term "Palestine" merely replaced the term PLO.

The problem poor people like me have, is that the Arab Palestinians cannot agree as to what a "Palestinian" is. And just as confusing is the lack of agreement as to what territory has been liberated.

YOU are saying that there at two areas of occupation: That of 1948 and that of 1967. So YOUR first complaint is with the UN recommending self-government and independence. YOUR second complaint is that the Jewish people were not allowed to implement self-determination.

Word salad - ha ah ha ha, YOU ask questions that YOU cannot answer.

Suppose I were to say that YOU actually represent the anti-Palestinian State. That the Arab Palestinians of today does not believe the same thing YOU believe. Who speaks for the Arab Palestinian? The agressors of Gaza, the disrupter of the West Bank, or the confused of Jerusalem?

Go back to may posting. Answer the questions...

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Most Respectfully,
R
 

P F Tinmore

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Palestinians (not the bantustan government) say that Israel is 1948 occupied Palestine. The West Bank and Gaza are 1967 occupied Palestine.

I have seen nothing showing this to be incorrect. Whenever I ask, I get word salad. Everybody starts dancing.
(COMMENT)

I asked over a half-dozen questions. You could not answer a single one. Why is that? Well, part of it, is rooted in the "dispute" that you cannot explain who the "Palestinians
(not the bantustan government)" are...

The Arab League said that the PLO is the sole representative...
(today that would be the President of the Palestinian National Authority); Mahmoud Abbas. However, you say "not the bantustan government.

When the Arab League said (1974) that "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated;" who were they identifying?

What territory was liberated and when?


When the UN granted non-member observer status (2012), the term "Palestine" merely replaced the term PLO.

The problem poor people like me have, is that the Arab Palestinians cannot agree as to what a "Palestinian" is. And just as confusing is the lack of agreement as to what territory has been liberated.

YOU are saying that there at two areas of occupation: That of 1948 and that of 1967. So YOUR first complaint is with the UN recommending self-government and independence. YOUR second complaint is that the Jewish people were not allowed to implement self-determination.

Word salad - ha ah ha ha, YOU ask questions that YOU cannot answer.

Suppose I were to say that YOU actually represent the anti-Palestinian State. That the Arab Palestinians of today does not believe the same thing YOU believe. Who speaks for the Arab Palestinian? The agressors of Gaza, the disrupter of the West Bank, or the confused of Jerusalem?

Go back to may posting. Answer the questions...

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Most Respectfully,
R
Could you pull out the questions that are applicable to my post?
 

RoccoR

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,


When the Arab League said (1974) that "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated;" who were they identifying?

What territory was liberated and when?

Suppose I were to say that YOU actually represent the anti-Palestinian State. That the Arab Palestinians of today does not believe the same thing YOU believe. Who speaks for the Arab Palestinian?

Who speaks for the Arab Palestinian? The aggressors of Gaza, the disrupter of the West Bank, or the confused of Jerusalem?


SIGIL PAIR.png

Most Respectfully,
R
 

P F Tinmore

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,


When the Arab League said (1974) that "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated;" who were they identifying?

What territory was liberated and when?

Suppose I were to say that YOU actually represent the anti-Palestinian State. That the Arab Palestinians of today does not believe the same thing YOU believe. Who speaks for the Arab Palestinian?

Who speaks for the Arab Palestinian? The aggressors of Gaza, the disrupter of the West Bank, or the confused of Jerusalem?


SIGIL PAIR.png

Most Respectfully,
R
The Palestinians are tired of other people speaking for them. They are now speaking for themselves and the conversation has changed considerably.

Now back to my post.
 

Hollie

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,


When the Arab League said (1974) that "the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated;" who were they identifying?

What territory was liberated and when?

Suppose I were to say that YOU actually represent the anti-Palestinian State. That the Arab Palestinians of today does not believe the same thing YOU believe. Who speaks for the Arab Palestinian?

Who speaks for the Arab Palestinian? The aggressors of Gaza, the disrupter of the West Bank, or the confused of Jerusalem?


SIGIL PAIR.png

Most Respectfully,
R
The Palestinians are tired of other people speaking for them. They are now speaking for themselves and the conversation has changed considerably.

Now back to my post.
Such melodrama. Do you have a YouTube video explaining what that means?
 

RoccoR

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF:

So you say. So, under international law, who makes the claim? (Once more, I don't speak for the Israelis.)
I cannot answer the question if you don't tell me the context of the claim YOU make.

◈ So then, why does Israel claim that the occupied Palestinian territory is disputed?​

The Palestinians are tired of other people speaking for them. They are now speaking for themselves and the conversation has changed considerably.

Now back to my post.
(COMMENT)

I cannot answer the question because you cannot demonstrate when the claim was made or the context.


(GUESS)

In general, since Israel has not taken any territory from the Palestinians, the dispute is over rights, title, and self-determination over the territory the undefined Arab Palestinians claim is their sovereign territory.

The "Claim" vs "Counter-Claim" or the dispute.


(CONTRAST)

What does undisputed Arab Palestinian Territory look like? Is there such a thing?

You cannot identify what is NOT in dispute (undisputed 'vs' disputed territory).
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Most Respectfully,
R
 

P F Tinmore

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF:

So you say. So, under international law, who makes the claim? (Once more, I don't speak for the Israelis.)
I cannot answer the question if you don't tell me the context of the claim YOU make.

◈ So then, why does Israel claim that the occupied Palestinian territory is disputed?​

The Palestinians are tired of other people speaking for them. They are now speaking for themselves and the conversation has changed considerably.

Now back to my post.
(COMMENT)

I cannot answer the question because you cannot demonstrate when the claim was made or the context.


(GUESS)

In general, since Israel has not taken any territory from the Palestinians, the dispute is over rights, title, and self-determination over the territory the undefined Arab Palestinians claim is their sovereign territory.

The "Claim" vs "Counter-Claim" or the dispute.


(CONTRAST)

What does undisputed Arab Palestinian Territory look like? Is there such a thing?

You cannot identify what is NOT in dispute (undisputed 'vs' disputed territory).
SIGIL PAIR.png

Most Respectfully,
R
Israel has its goons crawling all over the place but claims it is not occupied so it can duck out of the responsibilities of an occupying power.

You can't just say he said, she said and call it a day. One is right and the other wrong.
 

Hollie

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF:

So you say. So, under international law, who makes the claim? (Once more, I don't speak for the Israelis.)
I cannot answer the question if you don't tell me the context of the claim YOU make.

◈ So then, why does Israel claim that the occupied Palestinian territory is disputed?​

The Palestinians are tired of other people speaking for them. They are now speaking for themselves and the conversation has changed considerably.

Now back to my post.
(COMMENT)

I cannot answer the question because you cannot demonstrate when the claim was made or the context.


(GUESS)

In general, since Israel has not taken any territory from the Palestinians, the dispute is over rights, title, and self-determination over the territory the undefined Arab Palestinians claim is their sovereign territory.

The "Claim" vs "Counter-Claim" or the dispute.


(CONTRAST)

What does undisputed Arab Palestinian Territory look like? Is there such a thing?

You cannot identify what is NOT in dispute (undisputed 'vs' disputed territory).
SIGIL PAIR.png

Most Respectfully,
R
Israel has its goons crawling all over the place but claims it is not occupied so it can duck out of the responsibilities of an occupying power.

You can't just say he said, she said and call it a day. One is right and the other wrong.
You have made no case that Israel is an occupying power.
 

P F Tinmore

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF:

So you say. So, under international law, who makes the claim? (Once more, I don't speak for the Israelis.)
I cannot answer the question if you don't tell me the context of the claim YOU make.

◈ So then, why does Israel claim that the occupied Palestinian territory is disputed?​

The Palestinians are tired of other people speaking for them. They are now speaking for themselves and the conversation has changed considerably.

Now back to my post.
(COMMENT)

I cannot answer the question because you cannot demonstrate when the claim was made or the context.


(GUESS)

In general, since Israel has not taken any territory from the Palestinians, the dispute is over rights, title, and self-determination over the territory the undefined Arab Palestinians claim is their sovereign territory.

The "Claim" vs "Counter-Claim" or the dispute.


(CONTRAST)

What does undisputed Arab Palestinian Territory look like? Is there such a thing?

You cannot identify what is NOT in dispute (undisputed 'vs' disputed territory).
SIGIL PAIR.png

Most Respectfully,
R
Israel has its goons crawling all over the place but claims it is not occupied so it can duck out of the responsibilities of an occupying power.

You can't just say he said, she said and call it a day. One is right and the other wrong.
You have made no case that Israel is an occupying power.
28.The ICJ, in its ruling of 9 July 2004, concurred with this view: The territories situated between the Green Line and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories, as described in paragraphs 75 to 77 above [paragraph 77 referring to the Oslo Accords], have done nothing to alter this situation. All these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.2

 

Hollie

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF:

So you say. So, under international law, who makes the claim? (Once more, I don't speak for the Israelis.)
I cannot answer the question if you don't tell me the context of the claim YOU make.

◈ So then, why does Israel claim that the occupied Palestinian territory is disputed?​

The Palestinians are tired of other people speaking for them. They are now speaking for themselves and the conversation has changed considerably.

Now back to my post.
(COMMENT)

I cannot answer the question because you cannot demonstrate when the claim was made or the context.


(GUESS)

In general, since Israel has not taken any territory from the Palestinians, the dispute is over rights, title, and self-determination over the territory the undefined Arab Palestinians claim is their sovereign territory.

The "Claim" vs "Counter-Claim" or the dispute.


(CONTRAST)

What does undisputed Arab Palestinian Territory look like? Is there such a thing?

You cannot identify what is NOT in dispute (undisputed 'vs' disputed territory).
SIGIL PAIR.png

Most Respectfully,
R
Israel has its goons crawling all over the place but claims it is not occupied so it can duck out of the responsibilities of an occupying power.

You can't just say he said, she said and call it a day. One is right and the other wrong.
You have made no case that Israel is an occupying power.
28.The ICJ, in its ruling of 9 July 2004, concurred with this view: The territories situated between the Green Line and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories, as described in paragraphs 75 to 77 above [paragraph 77 referring to the Oslo Accords], have done nothing to alter this situation. All these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.2

That's nice but irrelevant. What jurisdiction does the ICJ have?

Coincidentally, you noted here: (Who are the Israelis?) that Oslo expired.
 

RoccoR

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RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ Hollie, P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: These are several fruits being mix here that confuse the issue(s).

◈ "Disputed Territory" 'vs' "Occupied Territory"

✦ Article 1 Protocol i GCIV provides that armed conflicts​
in which peoples are fighting against colonial​
domination, alien occupation or racist regimes​
are to be considered international conflicts.​
✦ Article 33 UN Charter​
1. The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which​
is likely to endanger the maintenance of international​
peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by​
negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration,​
judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or​
arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice.​
2. The Security Council shall, when it deems necessary,​
call upon the parties to settle their dispute by such means.​
✦ Article 42 Hague Convention 1907​
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed​
under the authority of the hostile army.​
The occupation extends only to the territory where such​
authority has been established and can be exercised.​

◈ Responsibilities of the Occupying Power
✦ Articles 55
✦ Article 60
✦ Article 69 of Protocol I
◈ Prohibited Actions Article 49 GCIV
"Deportation or forcible transfer of population" means
forced displacement of the persons concerned by
expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in
which they are lawfully present, without grounds
permitted under international law;
Israel has its goons crawling all over the place but claims it is not occupied so it can duck out of the responsibilities of an occupying power.

You can't just say he said, she said and call it a day. One is right and the other wrong.
You have made no case that Israel is an occupying power.
(COMMENT on the REALITY)

HOW IT BECAME DISPUTED

The question posed by P F Tinmore is not a simple answer. It is entangled in the complexities that have arisen since more than a decade before the Jordanian Sovereign Territory (JST) of the West Bank became effectively controlled by the Israelis. For the period of time that the JST was under the effective control of the Israelis (1967-1988) the JST was essentially "occupied" under the conditions set in Article 42 HR (supra). The effective control was not marred by hostilities; under a mutual undeclared ceases fire. BUT, when the Jordanians totally abandon and openly renounced any title and obligation to the territory, it became an orphaned territory under the principle of terra nullius and in the absence of any Arab Palestinian government, it became a non-self-governing entity by peaceful default, an unincorporated territory under Israeli responsibility. It did not become an Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) as it became known because, at that time, the State of Palestine had not yet emerged. In effect, it reverted back to the original 1948 Mandate/Trustee System legal entity → but it was NOT THEN self-governing.

This is the thumbnail sketch of how it happened. But it does not tie-up the other loose end and peripheral issues.


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Most Respectfully,
R
 

P F Tinmore

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It is entangled in the complexities that have arisen since more than a decade before the Jordanian Sovereign Territory (JST) of the West Bank became effectively controlled by the Israelis.
Jordan occupied the West Bank. It was not Jordanian sovereign territory.
 

P F Tinmore

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The question posed by P F Tinmore is not a simple answer. It is entangled in the complexities that have arisen since more than a decade before the Jordanian Sovereign Territory (JST) of the West Bank became effectively controlled by the Israelis, blah, blah, blah...
This sounds like it was written up by Israel's shyster lawyers.
 

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