The Nature of Illusion as it Relates to Pantheism

[Capstone]

The sooner human understanding of this principle of unity reaches a critical mass, the sooner the effects of behavior modification will be seen and felt on a global scale. Sad thing is: with each passing day of worsening situations under the status quo, it's becoming harder and harder for me to see such a mass social awakening as anything more than a new-agey pipe dream.

*****SMILE*****

Come whatever may, I fully intend to continue to stand for what I believe, mainly because I know of no other way to be 'myself'.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

The sooner human understanding of this principle of unity reaches a critical mass, the sooner the effects of behavior modification will be seen and felt on a global scale. Sad thing is: with each passing day of worsening situations under the status quo, it's becoming harder and harder for me to see such a mass social awakening as anything more than a new-agey pipe dream.

*****SMILE*****

Come whatever may, I fully intend to continue to stand for what I believe, mainly because I know of no other way to be 'myself'.

*****SMILE*****

 

[Treeshepherd]

Our minds have filters. Like a sluice box, we mentally filter out the vast majority of all the potential sensory inputs. That helps us to function (driving, chopping onions, organized thinking, etc).

Not only do we perceive the universe in a severely reduced capacity, but what we do perceive is compromised. Our brains are real time editors. The brain fills in the gaps that exist due to the limitations of our sense organs, and colors everything due to bias. It is truly more accurate to say believing is seeing than it is to say seeing is believing.

 

[pillars]

Humans are bathed in "magic" pretty much from cradle to grave, as though the universe were a magician on stage and we(?)...its largely unwitting captive audience. The problem is that too many of us believe in the illusions that inform and seemingly justify our faulty assumptions in life. Even as we learn our very first words, we're taught to describe 'things' in a manner that affirms their separateness and thereby denies the real physical connections between us and the 'objects' we perceive. Later, in school, this communicative denial is only strengthened as we learn about nouns and verbs, adjectives and adverbs, when the only "noun" that truly exists is the universe itself, and we're just the adjectives that describe it. It's a vicious cycle of indoctrination (especially in the western world) that must be broken, that is, if humanity is ever to break the magician's spell.

Have you just ever sat outside somewhere and felt that connection to everything that is? Once you realize that it is there, you feel it all the time.

 

[Capstone]

Our minds have filters. Like a sluice box, we mentally filter out the vast majority of all the potential sensory inputs. That helps us to function (driving, chopping onions, organized thinking, etc).

Not only do we perceive the universe in a severely reduced capacity, but what we do perceive is compromised. Our brains are real time editors. The brain fills in the gaps that exist due to the limitations of our sense organs, and colors everything due to bias. It is truly more accurate to say believing is seeing than it is to say seeing is believing.

It's no surprise to me that we agree on the weaknesses of sense perception, Treehugger.

Where we disagree most ardently, I believe, is in Christianity's continued role in the mess it's had so heavy a hand in creating. In my view, its only role should be one of complete dissolution; and the sooner the better.

All new-age attempts to salvage aspects of that god-forsaken Faith constitute a collective slap in the faces of our ancestors.

 

[pillars]

I am not nearly as hard on Christianity as I think Capstone is. People should have the freedom to worship in the way that fits them, even if I think it is destructive. I think that people are different, and some people need a religion with strong dichotomies in it in order to comprehend it. I agree that it is or can be very limiting, but I think some people are limited. For people who are less limited, the message of christ is of oneness, imo. If more christians understood that you serve god by loving and serving humanity and the world, then Christianity would be a far different religion.

But, there are close-minded pagans, too.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Our minds have filters. Like a sluice box, we mentally filter out the vast majority of all the potential sensory inputs. That helps us to function (driving, chopping onions, organized thinking, etc).

Not only do we perceive the universe in a severely reduced capacity, but what we do perceive is compromised. Our brains are real time editors. The brain fills in the gaps that exist due to the limitations of our sense organs, and colors everything due to bias. It is truly more accurate to say believing is seeing than it is to say seeing is believing.

It's no surprise to me that we agree on the weaknesses of sense perception, Treehugger.

Where we disagree most ardently, I believe, is in Christianity's continued role in the mess it's had so heavy a hand in creating. In my view, its only role should be one of complete dissolution; and the sonner the better.

All new-age attempts to salvage aspects of that god-forsaken Faith constitute a collective slap in the faces of our ancestors.

Well, in all my miles of hitchhiking in my younger days, usually with long hair and for a few years with dreadlocks, I got a lot of rides from Christians. Not egotistical Christians, but just followers of the good Samaritan rule.

Also, as a druid, I don't have much written history to work with. We have no scriptures. But I believe that just as humans have a layer of reptilian brain, there is a pagan layer of Christianity that's not hard to find. The old gods never die. They just get renamed.

Thirdly, you have to separate the Christian from Christendom. Also, recognize that some Christians like Tolstoy and Kierkegaard were anarchistic and fought organized religion at every turn.

But I came here for the discussion on illusion. I have more to say on that after I get some shit done around here.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Capstoner,

Maybe you’re already aware of the ‘Pepsi paradox'. It's a trite little nugget that illustrates some of your points.

The Pepsi paradox is a famous marketing study. Briefly, in a blind taste test between Pepsi and Coke, a majority of people prefer Pepsi. Pepsi is sweeter and less carbonated. But while drinking from the branded Coke and Pepsi cans, a majority of people choose Coke, which has a larger marketing presence. The interesting thing tho, is that people aren’t just following social cues or front-running with what they deem to be the winning herd. The result of the marketing is that it actually changes the taste experience. The brain response is in fact improved by the awareness of the brand.

Most people are aware also that cheap wine gets better ratings if you serve it from the bottle of an expensive wine. It’s not just them saying what they think they’re supposed to say. It actually improves the taste experience.

When you realize that politics is essentially about marketing, you see where I’m going with all this. And when you further realize that marketing is no longer about the art of propaganda, but now an actual brain science called ‘neuro-marketing’, you begin to wonder if resistance is futile, and the vast majority is powerless against assimilation .

 

[Capstone]

...People should have the freedom to worship in the way that fits them, even if I think it is destructive. ...

Insofar as their paths are freely chosen and merely self-destructive, I couldn't agree more! Unfortunately, at least where the bulk of my personal experience with Christians has been concerned, practice has generally fallen short of the ideal. Most have been Christians by way of fear-based indoctrination, not free choice (I.E. they really believed in eternal Hellfire!); and most were vehemently pro-Zionism as a matter of doctrine - the sort of blind support that has bolstered some of the most wide-ranging destructive policies and actions around the world for the better part of the last 70 years, as Christians have collectively played the role of 'useful idiot' at the pleasure of a privileged gang of soulless war-profiteers. On top of that, the so-called 'religious right' has also done a pretty destructive number on society closer to home and continues the push to legislate morality and force their stone-age beliefs on everyone else in the process. Mainstream Christianity's version of 'free will' is a farce; and the destruction meted out as a matter of common Christian dogma hasn't been limited to their own little circles - not by a long shot!

...I think that people are different, and some people need a religion with strong dichotomies in it in order to comprehend it. ...

Well, sadly, those dichotomies have too often translated into actions in the world beyond mere comprehension and belief - actions with severe consequences in the lives of non-Christians.

...If more christians understood that you serve god by loving and serving humanity and the world, then Christianity would be a far different religion.

Yeah, apparently, they don't; and it isn't.

...But, there are close-minded pagans, too.

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." - Thomas Mann

I've said it before and I'll say it again: there has never been a greater evil in this world than the sort of indoctrination that has provided the rationale behind some of the worst atrocities ever seen on the planet.

 

[Capstone]

Well, in all my miles of hitchhiking in my younger days, usually with long hair and for a few years with dreadlocks, I got a lot of rides from Christians. Not egotistical Christians, but just followers of the good Samaritan rule.

The damage done by all enablers of the Zionist war machine far outweighs any of their little good deeds.

...Also, as a druid, I don't have much written history to work with. We have no scriptures. But I believe that just as humans have a layer of reptilian brain, there is a pagan layer of Christianity that's not hard to find. The old gods never die. They just get renamed. ...

Not renamed; bastardized. There's a difference.

...Thirdly, you have to separate the Christian from Christendom. Also, recognize that some Christians like Tolstoy and Kierkegaard were anarchistic and fought organized religion at every turn. ...

Of course I distinguish between the practices and the practitioners. It should go without saying that my call for "the complete dissolution" of Christianity was aimed squarely at the organized Faith, ... not the people.

Regarding certain notable reform-minded 'Christian thinkers' (if you'll pardon me for the oxymoron), I see them as a tragic group of victims who suffered from a form of battered wife syndrome. No matter how badly they were persecuted for and by their Faith, they just kept on making excuses for it and going back for more. Pathetic, really.

 

[Capstone]

Maybe you’re already aware of the ‘Pepsi paradox'. It's a trite little nugget that illustrates some of your points.

The Pepsi paradox is a famous marketing study. Briefly, in a blind taste test between Pepsi and Coke, a majority of people prefer Pepsi. Pepsi is sweeter and less carbonated. But while drinking from the branded Coke and Pepsi cans, a majority of people choose Coke, which has a larger marketing presence. The interesting thing tho, is that people aren’t just following social cues or front-running with what they deem to be the winning herd. The result of the marketing is that it actually changes the taste experience. The brain response is in fact improved by the awareness of the brand.

Most people are aware also that cheap wine gets better ratings if you serve it from the bottle of an expensive wine. It’s not just them saying what they think they’re supposed to say. It actually improves the taste experience.

When you realize that politics is essentially about marketing, you see where I’m going with all this. And when you further realize that marketing is no longer about the art of propaganda, but now an actual brain science called ‘neuro-marketing’, you begin to wonder if resistance is futile, and the vast majority is powerless against assimilation .

I'll embrace the futility, thank you very much.

When it comes to Christianity, the packaging is irrelevant. It's a dualistic theology by logical necessity and a scourge to humanity as generally practiced. As such, it needs to go the way of the dinosaur.

 

[Gracie]

Well, it had to come to this. Eagle has to be put on iggie. The chucklicious hasta go.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Well, it had to come to this. Eagle has to be put on iggie. The chucklicious hasta go.

*****SMILE*****

 

[pillars]

...People should have the freedom to worship in the way that fits them, even if I think it is destructive. ...

Insofar as their paths are freely chosen and merely self-destructive, I couldn't agree more! Unfortunately, at least where the bulk of my personal experience with Christians has been concerned, practice has generally fallen short of the ideal. Most have been Christians by way of fear-based indoctrination, not free choice (I.E. they really believed in eternal Hellfire!); and most were vehemently pro-Zionism as a matter of doctrine - the sort of blind support that has bolstered some of the most wide-ranging destructive policies and actions around the world for the better part of the last 70 years, as Christians have collectively played the role of 'useful idiot' at the pleasure of a privileged gang of soulless war-profiteers. On top of that, the so-called 'religious right' has also done a pretty destructive number on society closer to home and continues the push to legislate morality and force their stone-age beliefs on everyone else in the process. Mainstream Christianity's version of 'free will' is a farce; and the destruction meted out as a matter of common Christian dogma hasn't been limited to their own little circles - not by a long shot!

...I think that people are different, and some people need a religion with strong dichotomies in it in order to comprehend it. ...

Well, sadly, those dichotomies have too often translated into actions in the world beyond mere comprehension and belief - actions with severe consequences in the lives of non-Christians.

...If more christians understood that you serve god by loving and serving humanity and the world, then Christianity would be a far different religion.

Yeah, apparently, they don't; and it isn't.

...But, there are close-minded pagans, too.

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." - Thomas Mann

I've said it before and I'll say it again: there has never been a greater evil in this world than the sort of indoctrination that has provided the rationale behind some of the worst atrocities ever seen on the planet.

How exactly would you propose to keep Christianity from indoctrinating people? I cannot see any way which doesn't trample over people's right to privacy and first amendment rights. What you propose is a sort of pantheistic fascism, which is grotesque.

 

[pillars]

When it comes to Christianity, the packaging is irrelevant. It's a dualistic theology by logical necessity and a scourge to humanity as generally practiced. As such, it needs to go the way of the dinosaur.

Dinosaurs didn't gradually fade away, which is actually what is happening to Christianity; they were killed off by cataclysmic climate shifts.

Are you proposing that something similar needs to happen to Christianity?

 

[hobelim]

How exactly would you propose to keep Christianity from indoctrinating people? I cannot see any way which doesn't trample over people's right to privacy and first amendment rights. What you propose is a sort of pantheistic fascism, which is grotesque.

Is it considered fascist that children are restricted from viewing pornographic movies because of the potential negative effect it could have on their undeveloped minds and emotions?

Would it be fascist to impose similar restrictions on the religious indoctrination of children for the exact same reasons?

If after getting a sound education in the sciences, history, literature, etc., a person over the age of 18 wants to throw their mind in the garbage and join a cult they should have every right to do it, but isn't it as bad or even worse to teach children before they have been educated about original sin, invisible demons, hell fire, the dead coming out of their graves, demonic possession, eternal torment, the end of the world, etc., as it would be to force children to view pornography and participate in orgies every Sunday?

 

[Treeshepherd]

Maybe you’re already aware of the ‘Pepsi paradox'. It's a trite little nugget that illustrates some of your points.

The Pepsi paradox is a famous marketing study. Briefly, in a blind taste test between Pepsi and Coke, a majority of people prefer Pepsi. Pepsi is sweeter and less carbonated. But while drinking from the branded Coke and Pepsi cans, a majority of people choose Coke, which has a larger marketing presence. The interesting thing tho, is that people aren’t just following social cues or front-running with what they deem to be the winning herd. The result of the marketing is that it actually changes the taste experience. The brain response is in fact improved by the awareness of the brand.

Most people are aware also that cheap wine gets better ratings if you serve it from the bottle of an expensive wine. It’s not just them saying what they think they’re supposed to say. It actually improves the taste experience.

When you realize that politics is essentially about marketing, you see where I’m going with all this. And when you further realize that marketing is no longer about the art of propaganda, but now an actual brain science called ‘neuro-marketing’, you begin to wonder if resistance is futile, and the vast majority is powerless against assimilation .

I'll embrace the futility, thank you very much.

When it comes to Christianity, the packaging is irrelevant. It's a dualistic theology by logical necessity and a scourge to humanity as generally practiced. As such, it needs to go the way of the dinosaur.

Catholic monk Thomas Merton is often referred to as a non-dualist;


"This dynamic of emptying and of transcendence
accurately defines the transformation of the
Christian consciousness in Christ. It is a
kenotic transfomation, an emptying of all the
contents of the ego-consciousness to become a
void in which the light of God or the glory of
God, the full radiation of the infinite reality
of His Being and Love are manifested."- Merton

Since the world has become so small, and religions have fully engaged with one another, I see the future as an ecosystem of beliefs. That's not to say that all religions should be the same. Quite the contrary. Religions, like species in a rainforest, need to live together in a state of creative tension perpetuating an ever-evolving balance. That's my view. You are entitled to your own perspective, Capstoner

 

[Capstone]

How exactly would you propose to keep Christianity from indoctrinating people? I cannot see any way which doesn't trample over people's right to privacy and first amendment rights. What you propose is a sort of pantheistic fascism, which is grotesque.

Take a look around, Pills. What's grotesque is what's happening now under the guise of 'religious freedom'! This apocalyptic landscape is the result of a series of 'self-fulfilled prophecies'. If reasonable minds aren't allowed to prevail, Christians will eventually see to it that they get their precious Armageddon. The war-profiteering power structure will only be too happy to facilitate them in that cause. And when (not if) that happens, I suppose you can take solace in the fact that you stood firm in protecting their rights to bring about that end.

As for what I propose we do about it, since the powers that (shouldn't) be have clearly mastered the art of mass manipulation, and whipping up Christians into a frenzy over some stupid wedge issue or other has become one of their go-to ploys, I suggest step one would be to seek out non-violent and legal ways to remove that MO as a mechanism of control - the ultimate goal being: to make religion in general and Christianity in particular politically irrelevant.

Dinosaurs didn't gradually fade away, which is actually what is happening to Christianity; they were killed off by cataclysmic climate shifts.

Are you proposing that something similar needs to happen to Christianity?

Birds evolved from small carnivorous dinosaurs of the late Jurassic. Yes, that's exactly what I propose needs to happen to Christians following the extinction of Christianity proper.They need to evolve and move forward for the betterment of all.

 

[Capstone]

Catholic monk Thomas Merton is often referred to as a non-dualist; ...

He's also often referred to by Catholic commentators as a Zen Buddhist and a sorely misguided soul.

In any case, this:

...an emptying of all the contents of the ego-consciousness to become a void in which the light of God or the glory of God, the full radiation of the infinite reality of His Being and Love are manifested."...

...is not indicative of a non-dualistic theology. The "void" is the property of one thing - Man; the "light of God" is the property of another - God. Two ontologically distinct forms of being are clearly represented by Merton's words.

...Since the world has become so small, and religions have fully engaged with one another, I see the future as an ecosystem of beliefs. That's not to say that all religions should be the same. Quite the contrary. Religions, like species in a rainforest, need to live together in a state of creative tension perpetuating an ever-evolving balance. ...

You know what, I might actually sign on to something like that, as soon as I see more than a modicum of evidence that certain religions can co-exist "in a state of creative tension". Nearly everything I've seen to date seems to suggest that the current state of destructive tension is likely to remain insoluble.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Well, it had to come to this. Eagle has to be put on iggie. The chucklicious hasta go.

*****CHUCKLE*****