The Nanking Massacre and Iris Chang's Book The Rape of Nanking

[Unkotare]

.... there's just a certain point where you move beyond polite discussion and just move on to straight up mockery...
.

That's where you start, and all you've got.

 

[Unkotare]

...

The real question is, why are you and Mormon Mike so keen on downplaying a horrific crime against humanity and excusing the men who perpetrated it?

Examining the facts is not "downplaying."

 

[JoeB131]

Examining the facts is not "downplaying."

Except you havent presented any facts, you've just engaged in this sort of shit.

Nanjing Massacre denial - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Meanwhile, you and Mormon Mike, being kind of awful people, mock Iris Chang's suicide.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Yawn, guy. The whole world is finally getting wise to the Zionist Entity and their genocidal practices in an apartheid state. The only reason why they aren't an international pariah is the US keep propping them up with our tax dollars. AIPAC lives in mortal fear of six members of the squad the way they fear a small child yelling "The Emperor has no clothes".

Brought to you by a loyal self-appointed American spokesman for neo-Nazis, Hamas, Hezbollah, and ISIS.

Yeah, just keep spewing this trash. Please.

But I knew you couldn't process my point about how truly evil religion is when it's used as an excuse to oppress people.

Oh, I can process it just fine. It's just further evidence of how bigoted and fringe you are in your views.

Okay, TL-DR. Brevity is the soul of wit, Mormon Mike.

Would you also say Nuremberg was a display of "Victor's Justice"? Of course, no one would ever say that, because we all know the Nazis were EEEEEEEVIL! Hollywood has been telling us that for 80 years.

Humm, well, you're the one who peddles many of the lies that the Nazis told about the Jews. Hello? You, like the Nazis, peddle the myth of an international Zionist conspiracy. You repeat Nazi lies about Jewish greed. You, as did the Nazis, condemn the formation of a Jewish state in Israel. You repeat modern neo-Nazi/Hamas/Hezbollah/ISIS propaganda about Jews and Israel.

So, Jihad Joe, morally speaking alone, you're really not in a position to be talking about Nuremberg.

Japan launched a war of aggression against the entire region, and as a result, 30 million people died.

The IMFTE executed a whopping seven people. Of the 16 people who got "life" sentences, most of them were released by 1958.

That seems a little underwhelming. Compare that to Nuremburg, where 12 top Nazis were executed.

Talk about "yawn." So your response to Justice Pal's arguments regarding Matsui is yet another repetition of your bigoted anti-Japanese version of the Pacific War. Gee, why am I not surprised?

Do you know who didn't get executed? Emperor Hirohito. We engaged in a polite fiction that he was an innocent bystander.

Of course you still buy the FDR and Truman administrations' WWII-era propaganda about Hirohito. In point of fact, Hirohito battled the militarists as best he could from the moment he became emperor. He had friends who were assassinated by the militarists, and once he was finally able to bring about a surrender, some of the militarists tried to overthrow him. He tried to prevent the Pearl Harbor attack. He opposed the expansion of the war in China. He began pushing for surrender months before Truman shamefully nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I know you'll never abandon your hatred and bigotry toward the "Japs" (your term), so you can tune out now, but people who want to learn the truth about Hirohito instead of the WWII-era propaganda about him should read Dr. Noriko Kawamura's 2015 book Emperor Hirohito and the Pacific War.

Who else didn't get executed? Shiro Ishii. Killed and tortured thousands of people in insane experiments and was given a pass by the US government in exchange for his "research", which turned out to be utterly worthless once they translated it.

Uh, well, and who was president when that slimy deal was done? That was your boy, Harry Truman.

I agree that all the leaders associated with Unit 731 should have been either executed or given substantial prison sentences. Shall we talk about the cruel medical experiments and large-scale torture that the Soviets carried out? Oh, that's right: You say the Soviets were good guys.

 

[JoeB131]

Brought to you by a loyal self-appointed American spokesman for neo-Nazis, Hamas, Hezbollah, and ISIS.

Yeah, just keep spewing this trash. Please.

Only one of us has a DD214, if we are talking about loyalty.

Of course, I swore an oath to defend America, not the religious fantasies of Zionists.

Oh, I can process it just fine. It's just further evidence of how bigoted and fringe you are in your views.

Well, clearly you didn't. I think that you run into someone who doesn't think God exists, and it just shuts your tiny brain down that anyone can exist without grovelling in front of an imaginary sky pixie who needs money.

Humm, well, you're the one who peddles many of the lies that the Nazis told about the Jews. Hello? You, like the Nazis, peddle the myth of an international Zionist conspiracy. You repeat Nazi lies about Jewish greed. You, as did the Nazis, condemn the formation of a Jewish state in Israel. You repeat modern neo-Nazi/Hamas/Hezbollah/ISIS propaganda about Jews and Israel.

None of those issues were invented by the Nazis. Did you ever read The Merchant of Venice? So did Hitler get into Doctor Who's TARDIS and tell Shakespeare to write that?

In any event, it's not a conspiracy when you do it in the open. AIPAC is operating pretty much in the open. So did the PNAC, which was a Zionist Tool organization.

So, Jihad Joe, morally speaking alone, you're really not in a position to be talking about Nuremberg.

In short, you desperately needed to change the subject. So yes or no, was Nuremburg a case of "Victor's Justce" or not?

By your standards, it was because some of those guys were less culpable than the others.

I, on the other hand, have no problem with either Nuremberg or Tokyo, other than they didn't hang nearly enough of the bastards.

Talk about "yawn." So your response to Justice Pal's arguments regarding Matsui is yet another repetition of your bigoted anti-Japanese version of the Pacific War. Gee, why am I not surprised?

There's no other point of view on the Pacific War than "The Japanese engaged in a war of aggression and murdered millions of people" unjustly.

Of course you still buy the FDR and Truman administrations' WWII-era propaganda about Hirohito. In point of fact, Hirohito battled the militarists as best he could from the moment he became emperor. He had friends who were assassinated by the militarists, and once he was finally able to bring about a surrender, some of the militarists tried to overthrow him. He tried to prevent the Pearl Harbor attack. He opposed the expansion of the war in China. He began pushing for surrender months before Truman shamefully nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Oh, fucking bullshit. Hirohito was seen as a FUCKING GOD at the time. He was knee deep in the shit when planning that war.

I know you'll never abandon your hatred and bigotry toward the "Japs" (your term), so you can tune out now, but people who want to learn the truth about Hirohito instead of the WWII-era propaganda about him should read Dr. Noriko Kawamura's 2015 book Emperor Hirohito and the Pacific War.

Or they can read this.

https://junctionsjournal.org/articles/152/files/65200086599c0.pdf

or this

Hirohito, the war criminal who got away

This month the global media marked the 75th anniversary of the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The cities’ destructions were momentous indeed, but the coverage has squeezed out other memories of the Pacific War. Who remembers Japan’s genocidal campaign in China that killed...

www.spectator.co.uk

The notion that Hirohito was an innocent bystander as his nation went on a genocidal rampage across Asia is just absurd.

Uh, well, and who was president when that slimy deal was done? That was your boy, Harry Truman.

I doubt that decision went to Truman's desk. Now, if you want to blame someone, blame this guy.

Murray Sanders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's the thing. Germany continued to prosecute war criminals AFTER the Allies had pretty much lost interest in the whole thing. This is why Josef Mengele could never go home after the war. Shiro, on the other hand, was never held to account for his actions by his own people. He died quietly in his bed in 1959.

I agree that all the leaders associated with Unit 731 should have been either executed or given substantial prison sentences. Shall we talk about the cruel medical experiments and large-scale torture that the Soviets carried out? Oh, that's right: You say the Soviets were good guys.

You can always tell when Mormon Mike is losing an argument; he wants to change the subject to something else.

 

[JoeB131]

To put this in box scores.

Iris Chang was a highly respected researcher and author who published three books.

Mike Griffith is a crazy Mormon crank who posts his manifesto on the internet, and half of his links don't work.

It must suck to be beaten by a dead woman!

 

[mikegriffith1]

Only one of us has a DD214, if we are talking about loyalty.

Umm, I have a DD-214. I spent 21 years in Army military intelligence and retired after 21 years.

Of course, I swore an oath to defend America, not the religious fantasies of Zionists.

Ah, here we go, Jihad Joe. You can't help yourself when it comes to peddling your anti-Semitic trash.

Well, clearly you didn't. I think that you run into someone who doesn't think God exists, and it just shuts your tiny brain down that anyone can exist without grovelling in front of an imaginary sky pixie who needs money.

Oh, please, keep putting your anti-religious bigotry on display. Yes, we get it: You think that anyone who believes in a supreme being must be idiotic, gullible, blah, blah. Coming from someone with your record, that's comical.

None of those issues were invented by the Nazis. Did you ever read The Merchant of Venice? So did Hitler get into Doctor Who's TARDIS and tell Shakespeare to write that? In any event, it's not a conspiracy when you do it in the open. AIPAC is operating pretty much in the open. So did the PNAC, which was a Zionist Tool organization.

You pretend to condemn the Nazis in one breath, and in the very next breath you repeat Nazi and neo-Nazi propaganda. Your ugly comments about Jews and greed and Jews never passing up a chance to make money are identical to what the Nazis said about Jews and money.

And if it's not a conspiracy--never mind that in previous replies you posited an international Zionist conspiracy--then surely you should be able to name the Jews who you claim are running the U.S. and most of the world, right? I'm still waiting for you to provide a rational scenario for your howler that Jews controlled/suppressed/doctored the Navy Court of Inquiry on the USS Liberty.

In short, you desperately needed to change the subject. So yes or no, was Nuremburg a case of "Victor's Justce" or not?

Hey, High School Joe, you're the one who brought up Nuremberg, not I. You're the one who keeps appealing to the Tokyo Tribunal, as if it was some kind of genuine, unbiased, credible judicial proceeding, instead of the rigged, kangaroo court that it was.

Now, as to your question about Nuremberg and victor's justice, I would say that Nuremberg was less biased and bloodthirsty than the Tokyo Tribunal. It was far from perfect, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Tokyo Tribunal.

By your standards, it was because some of those guys were less culpable than the others.

I, on the other hand, have no problem with either Nuremberg or Tokyo, other than they didn't hang nearly enough of the bastards.

Oh, of course, and never you mind that one of the judges of the Tokyo Tribunal was a Soviet thug who took part in murdering his fellow Russians via Stalin's show trials. Never you mind that the Tokyo Tribunal convicted moderate civilian leaders who had opposed the militarists every step of the way.

There's no other point of view on the Pacific War than "The Japanese engaged in a war of aggression and murdered millions of people" unjustly.

Uh-huh. According to your high-school-level education, the Pacific War was all Japan's fault. That's also the Chinese Communist version of the war, BTW. I've answered you in detail on this point in previous replies in this thread, but you continue to ignore all the evidence and sources I've presented and just keep repeating the Chinese Communist version of the Pacific War.

Oh, &^&% ^%$(&. Hirohito was seen as a &^%$% GOD at the time. He was knee deep in the *&^%$ when planning that war. Or they can read this

https://junctionsjournal.org/articles/152/files/65200086599c0.pdf

or this

Hirohito, the war criminal who got away

This month the global media marked the 75th anniversary of the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The cities’ destructions were momentous indeed, but the coverage has squeezed out other memories of the Pacific War. Who remembers Japan’s genocidal campaign in China that killed...

www.spectator.co.uk

The notion that Hirohito was an innocent bystander as his nation went on a genocidal rampage across Asia is just absurd.

I don't think you actually read the first article you cite, Ann Van Buuren's article, and the second article is a superficial newspaper hit piece.

I think you just skimmed through Van Buuren's article or assumed from the title that it supported your bigoted anti-Japanese portrayal of the emperor. The article is quite flawed, but it does have some balance and notes that some scholars have argued that Hirohito opposed the war and did what he could to oppose the militarists. Oddly, though written in 2023, Van Buuren's article does not mention or cite the definitive study on Hirohito: Dr. Noriko Kawamura's highly acclaimed book Emperor Hirohito and the Pacific War, a curious and discrediting omission. She relies heavily on Bix, but Kawamura thoroughly debunks Bix, noting, among other things, that Bix mistranslated key documents. Still, her article does present some balance and does discuss and cite sources that contradict the charge that Hirohito was a war criminal.

I doubt that decision went to Truman's desk. Now, if you want to blame someone, blame this guy [Lt. Col. Murray Sanders].

Oh, sure! Truman had no idea that his War Department offered immunity to Japanese war criminals from Unit 731! No, instead, some lowly Lieutenant Colonel was to blame! You are so blindly biased and unable to admit anything that it is actually funny.

I notice you ignored the point about cruel Soviet medical experiments and large-scale torture.

Here's the thing. Germany continued to prosecute war criminals AFTER the Allies had pretty much lost interest in the whole thing. This is why Josef Mengele could never go home after the war. Shiro, on the other hand, was never held to account for his actions by his own people. He died quietly in his bed in 1959.

Ho! Ho! Ho! You once again show you have no clue what you're talking about. First off, FYI, Mengele remained in Germany for four years after the war, until July 1949, thanks to help from many fellow Germans. Once the Allies stopped focusing on prosecuting war criminals, the German government proceeded to grant early releases to numerous ex-Nazis and other war criminals in the 1950s and 1960s, including Neurath, Raeder, Bobermin, Kiefer, Pook, and Baier.

BTW, heard of Operation Paperclip? This was a Truman administration program that granted immunity to some 1,600 Third Reich rocket scientists and engineers and put them to work for NASA and for military research programs. Are you going to blame that on some lowly Lieutenant Colonel too?

You can always tell when Mormon Mike is losing an argument; he wants to change the subject to something else.

Oh, yeah! I'm losing this argument big time! LOL.

Anyway, just let it be noted that you have yet to provide anything but juvenile posturing and sweeping denials in response to the evidence on Nanking's population, the evidence about the actual area of the massacre, the evidence that Matsui's forces were never even in most of the expanded area floated by Iris Chang and her defenders, Japan's valid interests in northern China, the evidence that Chinese aggression turned a local confrontation that was calming down into full-scale war, the evidence that large numbers of Chinese preferred Japanese rule to Nationalist or Communist rule, the fact that the Nationalists killed far more Chinese in the Yellow River Atrocity than even Iris Chang said the Japanese killed in the Nanking Massacre, the clear evidence from the burial records that rules out the mythical 300,000 figure, etc., etc., etc.

 

[JoeB131]

Ah, here we go, Jihad Joe. You can't help yourself when it comes to peddling your anti-Semitic trash.

What trash? That the Zionists have too much influence in our government? When was the last time we told the Israelis to sod off? It doesn't happen. Today, Bibi is meeting with Trump about that 10% Tariff. How much you want to bet Israel gets exempted from the tariffs?

Oh, please, keep putting your anti-religious bigotry on display. Yes, we get it: You think that anyone who believes in a supreme being must be idiotic, gullible, blah, blah. Coming from someone with your record, that's comical.

Um, guy, I was brought up Catholic. Not as deranged as your cult started by kiddy-diddlers, but bad enough.

Yes, if you think there's a magic fairy in the sky who created the universe 14 billions years ago, but he really cares which hole you are sticking your dick into, that's just some crazy stuff.

You pretend to condemn the Nazis in one breath, and in the very next breath you repeat Nazi and neo-Nazi propaganda. Your ugly comments about Jews and greed and Jews never passing up a chance to make money are identical to what the Nazis said about Jews and money.

I think you are a little confused. Let me try to make it easier for you before you ignore the point.

Being a Good Christian (ah, for the days of Roman Lions) you think Homosexuality is wrong. I think that's a little silly, I don't care what hole other people stick their dicks into, but it's something you think is bad. Um. Okay. That's your prerogative. But I would hope that you would think it was wrong that Hitler sent 10,000 homosexuals to the camps where they eventually were murdered.

So, I think that Judiasm is theologically wrong and that their political movement of Zionism, which results in Apartheid and Genocide against the Palestinian people, is wrong. I think their focus on money is misplaced, honestly. I still think what the Nazis did was wrong.

Now, I'm being consistent. I think what the Nazis did to the Jews (and gays, Sinti, Roma, the disabled, Socialists, Communists, trade unionists) was wrong. I think what the Japanese did at Nanjing and Bataan and a bunch of other places was wrong. I think what the ZIonists are doing on the West Bank and Gaza is wrong.

Intellectual consistency. You should try it.

And if it's not a conspiracy--never mind that in previous replies you posited an international Zionist conspiracy--then surely you should be able to name the Jews who you claim are running the U.S. and most of the world, right? I'm still waiting for you to provide a rational scenario for your howler that Jews controlled/suppressed/doctored the Navy Court of Inquiry on the USS Liberty.

I've already told you, AIPAC. We've been over this.

Hey, High School Joe, you're the one who brought up Nuremberg, not I. You're the one who keeps appealing to the Tokyo Tribunal, as if it was some kind of genuine, unbiased, credible judicial proceeding, instead of the rigged, kangaroo court that it was.

Now, as to your question about Nuremberg and victor's justice, I would say that Nuremberg was less biased and bloodthirsty than the Tokyo Tribunal. It was far from perfect, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Tokyo Tribunal.

How can you say that? Nuremberg put people like Franz von Papen on trial. He wasn't even a Nazi. They put Julius Streicher on trial. The guy wasn't a general or a major political leader, he just ran a rather nasty newspaper.

I actually did a paper on Nuremberg in college during my dubious involvement with ROTC. My opinion at the time was that it wasn't a fair trial, but the Nazis were all bastards and had it coming, anyway. Same deal with Tokyo.

Oh, of course, and never you mind that one of the judges of the Tokyo Tribunal was a Soviet thug who took part in murdering his fellow Russians via Stalin's show trials. Never you mind that the Tokyo Tribunal convicted moderate civilian leaders who had opposed the militarists every step of the way.

Did you think the Russians sent their "nice" judge to Nuremberg?

Iona Nikitchenko - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As deputy chairman of Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the Soviet Union, Nikitchenko presided over some of the most notorious of Joseph Stalin's show trials during the Great Purges from 1936 to 1938 and notably sentenced Lev Kamenev and Grigory Zinoviev.

Papen was a moderate. Speer was a moderate. Doenitz was a moderate. They all still went to prison at Spandau. Fuck, Rudolf Hess wasn't even in Germany for most of the war.

Uh-huh. According to your high-school-level education, the Pacific War was all Japan's fault. That's also the Chinese Communist version of the war, BTW. I've answered you in detail on this point in previous replies in this thread, but you continue to ignore all the evidence and sources I've presented and just keep repeating the Chinese Communist version of the Pacific War.

Actually, I don't see how it can be anyone's fault EXCEPT Japan's.

Japan had absolutely no business invading China. They had no business deposing the legitimate government of Korea and making it a colony. Heck, Germany had a better argument for invading Poland and France, as both countries held territory that used to belong to Germany.

The problem is that you want to excuse imperialism and colonialism. These are never good things, or acceptable to decent people. .

I think you just skimmed through Van Buuren's article or assumed from the title that it supported your bigoted anti-Japanese portrayal of the emperor. The article is quite flawed, but it does have some balance and notes that some scholars have argued that Hirohito opposed the war and did what he could to oppose the militarists. Oddly, though written in 2023, Van Buuren's article does not mention or cite the definitive study on Hirohito: Dr. Noriko Kawamura's

Wow, Japanese person finds their fake God did nothing wrong.

The problem with people in the West is that they've tried to rationalize never holding Hirohito to account. MacArthur decided early on that using his religious status benefitted the occupation.

Oh, sure! Truman had no idea that his War Department offered immunity to Japanese war criminals from Unit 731! No, instead, some lowly Lieutenant Colonel was to blame! You are so blindly biased and unable to admit anything that it is actually funny.

Do you really think he was making the low-level decisions like that? Truman wasn't Trump.

I notice you ignored the point about cruel Soviet medical experiments and large-scale torture.

Because I have exactly Zero fucks to give about them. Sell your Bircher Crazy somewhere else.

Ho! Ho! Ho! You once again show you have no clue what you're talking about. First off, FYI, Mengele remained in Germany for four years after the war, until July 1949, thanks to help from many fellow Germans. Once the Allies stopped focusing on prosecuting war criminals, the German government proceeded to grant early releases to numerous ex-Nazis and other war criminals in the 1950s and 1960s, including Neurath, Raeder, Bobermin, Kiefer, Pook, and Baier.

Wow, this is dishonest. Mengele lived in Germany under assumed names. Shiro lived right out in the open and died in his own bed. Mengele lived in hiding and was buried in an unmarked grave.

Germany didn't do a good enough job prosecuting ex-Nazis, but they have held them to account, such as Claus Barbie.

BTW, heard of Operation Paperclip? This was a Truman administration program that granted immunity to some 1,600 Third Reich rocket scientists and engineers and put them to work for NASA and for military research programs. Are you going to blame that on some lowly Lieutenant Colonel too?

None of those guys were Nazis or war criminals. Not a good comparison at all. Unlike you hero, Shiro Ishii, these guys were engaged in.. you know, actual science.

Anyway, just let it be noted that you have yet to provide anything but juvenile posturing and sweeping denials in response to the evidence on Nanking's population,

Blah, blah, blah. You made a case. It's just a bullshit one. A bunch of white people hiding in their embassies shitting their pants weren't going to give a complete assessment of the massacre.

We know what the population of Nanjing was. It was 1 million in January 1939, according to Nationalist records.

 

[Unkotare]

...


Meanwhile, you and Mormon Mike, being kind of awful people, mock Iris Chang's suicide.

No one has mocked her suicide. Lashing out irrationally is not a good reaction to losing an argument.

 

[JoeB131]

No one has mocked her suicide. Lashing out irrationally is not a good reaction to losing an argument.

Sure you did.


Mike - "First off, Iris Chang was an emotionally disturbed woman, to put it gently. She held the paranoid belief that when she visited Louisville, she was being "recruited" by "the CIA or some other organization." She believed she was being "followed in the streets." She claimed she was being "persecuted by forces more powerful than I could have imagined." One of her own research assistants checked her into a psychiatric facility in Louisville (the Norton Psychiatric Hospital), where she was diagnosed with "reactive psychosis." Yet, she described her time at the hospital as a "detention" and claimed it was "the government’s attempt to discredit me." Can you say "paranoid"?"


To which you responded.

Chang's exposure led her to suicide.

 

[Unkotare]

Only one of us has a DD214, if we are talking about loyalty.
...

You taint your service by trying to use it to justify your bigotry and ignorant political views all the damn time. I'm pretty sure you didn't take an oath to be an atheist who spews racist bullshit and ignores actual facts of history.

 

[Unkotare]

To put this in box scores.

Iris Chang was a highly respected researcher and author who published three books.

Mike Griffith is a crazy Mormon crank who posts his manifesto on the internet, and half of his links don't work.

It must suck to be beaten by a dead woman!

More bigotry.

 

[JoeB131]

You taint your service by trying to use it to justify your bigotry and ignorant political views all the damn time. I'm pretty sure you didn't take an oath to be an atheist who spews racist bullshit and ignores actual facts of history.

Actually, I took an oath to defend the constitution, which gives me every right to not grovel in front of imaginary sky pixies.

The facts of history is the Japanese were bastards in WWII.

Not sure why you are trying to claim anything else.

 

[Unkotare]

What trash? That the Zionists have too much influence in our government? When was the last time we told the Israelis to sod off? It doesn't happen. ...

We tend to agree with our closest allies? What the hell?!

 

[Unkotare]

...


Um, guy, I was brought up Catholic. ...

But you weren't bright enough to understand it.

 

[JoeB131]

We tend to agree with our closest allies? What the hell?!

Tell that to Canada and Mexico, the way Trump is treating them right now.

As opposed to Netanyahu, who gets to come here and lecture congress on his crazy scare tactics about the Iranian Bomb he's been screaming about since the 1990s.

 

[Unkotare]

...

I actually did a paper on Nuremberg in college ...

Wow, that settles that!

 

[Unkotare]

...Germany had a better argument for invading Poland and France, ...

There go those roots showing. Now we know more about what you really believe.

 

[Unkotare]

Sure you did.
...

Sure I did not. Stand up for yourself at home once in a while.

 

[Unkotare]

Tell that to Canada and Mexico, ...

You think they are our political allies?