The myth that public schools are a failure

[pismoe]

to see how good education is watch these man on the street episodes where a guy with a few questions and a microphone asks young 20 year old different questions . Some history usually and sometimes politics , these 20 year olds are very poorly educated and many are college students .

 

[MisterBeale]

"
New
think that lots of those kids are living in their moms basements 'init' , anyway , that's what I hear . As far as high wages these kids that do get jobs are making less money then I made in 1981 . And they have no benefits like I had and many young adults have huge student loans to pay off which is something I didn't have to worry about . "

Well you are correct that the plan to take down the middle class is being masterfully orchestrated. As far as the civil war, slavery was only one aspect. But you must admit that slave owners were scum.

IOW, you have been a victim of the same STATE indoctrination that the kids are being subjected to.

In hindsight, according to OUR morals and ethics of today, yes, we can fairly judge an economic system we did away with nearly a century and a half ago that existed for thousands of years, that hundreds of nations did a way with peacefully, was morally repugnant. However, that is a smokescreen that your indoctrination has been foisted on you to accept the myth that federal power is legitimate and the rights of states and the sovereign individual are not supreme as outlined in the Constitution.

Like I said, indoctrination.

 

[Darkwind]

Isn't it funny how a liberal will demand that the State do something about obese children because the parents cannot be trusted to make life choices for them, but when the education system is being drowned by the teachers union and education is failing, suddenly, just suddenly, its the parents fault for not participating enough.......

 

[regent]

States passed laws prohibiting child-labor and the Supreme Court shot them down. As an answer, states tried instituting compulsory education, and for some reason the Courts accepted the compulsory education laws.

 

[MisterBeale]

Of course education is compulsory. We need an educated work force.

How long has education been compulsory?

You don't know? Research it.

I already know. Apparently YOU don't. You are the one that made the laughable claim, "We need an educated work force." Like you made the assumption that ONLY the government will educate the workforce.

Do people want jobs? Of course they do. So why wouldn't they educate themselves for those jobs?

Up until the dawn of the 20th century, there were no public schools, yet the most prosperous time in the American economy, as far as "JOBS" went, for the American worker, was right after the Civil War. Do you know why that is? Because American families educated their own children. Americans took their own self initiative, and founded their own companies.

Small business and entrepreneurship is the back bone of the country. The whole reason the elites instituted compulsory education, is they DID NOT want the poor and the middle class to be entrepreneurs and creative thinkers. They wanted a mass of predictable workers that they could use in their factors, mills and mines. They wanted CONSUMERS. The same is true today.

Do you even know where the word KINDERGARTEN came from? It's origins? It has everything to do with indoctrination, regimentation and dehumanizing the individual.


The Long Reach Of The Teutonic Knights
The Long Reach Of The Teutonic Knights John Taylor Gatto
In 1839, thirteen years before the first successful school compulsion law was passed in the United States, a perpetual critic of Boston Whig (Mann’s own party) leadership charged that pro-posals to erect German-style teacher seminaries in this country were a thinly disguised attack on local and popular autonomy. The critic Brownson2 allowed that state regulation of teaching licenses was a necessary preliminary only if school were intended to serve as a psychological control mechanism for the state and as a screen for a controlled economy. If that was the game truly afoot, said Brownson, it should be reckoned an act of treason.


“Where the whole tendency of education is to create obedience,” Brownson said, “all teachers must be pliant tools of government. Such a system of education is not inconsistent with the theory of Prussian society but the thing is wholly inadmissible here.” He further argued that “according to our theory the people are wiser than the government. Here the people do not look to the government for light, for instruction, but the government looks to the people. The people give law to the government.” He concluded that “to entrust government with the power of determining education which our children shall receive is entrusting our servant with the power of the master. The fundamental difference between the United States and Prussia has been overlooked by the board of education and its supporters.”3

 

[JakeStarkey]

MisterBeale, I know you would ansere as you did if I prodded you.

This is not a Prussian society, but an American one based on certain principles that you are willing to throw over.

After WWI for the first time, more than 50% of American teens went to High School. Our business, research, design, and sciences have shot off the map because of that.

If we go back to your way, Beale, we go back to the 3rd class. Won't happen.

Remember that Libertarianism is merely the flip side of the coin that has communism. Libertarian and Communist elites will smother the every day citizen.

You are so likely that the good part of America will never permit that to happen.

 

[ralfy]

Education in the USA is pretty pizz poor , I think that the idea is to dumb down the American kids so that they are on the same level as the mass of third worlders that are being imported into the USA . Course my kids are grown and educated Jake !!

It should be noted that the U.S. has one of the highest spending levels for education among industrialized countries.

 

[ralfy]

Of course education is compulsory. We need an educated work force.

How long has education been compulsory?

It has been for some time among various states. Some details here:

Compulsory education - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[ralfy]

MisterBeale, I know you would ansere as you did if I prodded you.

This is not a Prussian society, but an American one based on certain principles that you are willing to throw over.

After WWI for the first time, more than 50% of American teens went to High School. Our business, research, design, and sciences have shot off the map because of that.

If we go back to your way, Beale, we go back to the 3rd class. Won't happen.

Remember that Libertarianism is merely the flip side of the coin that has communism. Libertarian and Communist elites will smother the every day citizen.

You are so likely that the good part of America will never permit that to happen.

Very likely the premise is not to support a Prussian-like society but a capitalist one which has similar characteristics.

 

[ralfy]

"
New
think that lots of those kids are living in their moms basements 'init' , anyway , that's what I hear . As far as high wages these kids that do get jobs are making less money then I made in 1981 . And they have no benefits like I had and many young adults have huge student loans to pay off which is something I didn't have to worry about . "

Well you are correct that the plan to take down the middle class is being masterfully orchestrated. As far as the civil war, slavery was only one aspect. But you must admit that slave owners were scum.

IOW, you have been a victim of the same STATE indoctrination that the kids are being subjected to.

In hindsight, according to OUR morals and ethics of today, yes, we can fairly judge an economic system we did away with nearly a century and a half ago that existed for thousands of years, that hundreds of nations did a way with peacefully, was morally repugnant. However, that is a smokescreen that your indoctrination has been foisted on you to accept the myth that federal power is legitimate and the rights of states and the sovereign individual are not supreme as outlined in the Constitution.

Like I said, indoctrination.

My understanding is that the purpose of public education is not so much state indoctrination but capitalist indoctrination. This explains why school systems are designed like businesses, with hierarchies, quantification of performance, and standardization. The goal is to create efficient and obedient workers and consumers.

 

[ralfy]

Of course education is compulsory. We need an educated work force.

How long has education been compulsory?

You don't know? Research it.

I already know. Apparently YOU don't. You are the one that made the laughable claim, "We need an educated work force." Like you made the assumption that ONLY the government will educate the workforce.

Do people want jobs? Of course they do. So why wouldn't they educate themselves for those jobs?

Up until the dawn of the 20th century, there were no public schools, yet the most prosperous time in the American economy, as far as "JOBS" went, for the American worker, was right after the Civil War. Do you know why that is? Because American families educated their own children. Americans took their own self initiative, and founded their own companies.

Small business and entrepreneurship is the back bone of the country. The whole reason the elites instituted compulsory education, is they DID NOT want the poor and the middle class to be entrepreneurs and creative thinkers. They wanted a mass of predictable workers that they could use in their factors, mills and mines. They wanted CONSUMERS. The same is true today.

Do you even know where the word KINDERGARTEN came from? It's origins? It has everything to do with indoctrination, regimentation and dehumanizing the individual.


The Long Reach Of The Teutonic Knights
The Long Reach Of The Teutonic Knights John Taylor Gatto
In 1839, thirteen years before the first successful school compulsion law was passed in the United States, a perpetual critic of Boston Whig (Mann’s own party) leadership charged that pro-posals to erect German-style teacher seminaries in this country were a thinly disguised attack on local and popular autonomy. The critic Brownson2 allowed that state regulation of teaching licenses was a necessary preliminary only if school were intended to serve as a psychological control mechanism for the state and as a screen for a controlled economy. If that was the game truly afoot, said Brownson, it should be reckoned an act of treason.


“Where the whole tendency of education is to create obedience,” Brownson said, “all teachers must be pliant tools of government. Such a system of education is not inconsistent with the theory of Prussian society but the thing is wholly inadmissible here.” He further argued that “according to our theory the people are wiser than the government. Here the people do not look to the government for light, for instruction, but the government looks to the people. The people give law to the government.” He concluded that “to entrust government with the power of determining education which our children shall receive is entrusting our servant with the power of the master. The fundamental difference between the United States and Prussia has been overlooked by the board of education and its supporters.”3

The bad news is that the basis of a middle class society (i.e., an "American dream" based essentially on consumer spending that is dependent on mass manufacturing and mechanized agriculture) is not small business enterprises but large corporations that continue to grow.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

The Myth Behind Public School Failure by Dean Paton YES Magazine

The blame is clearly on the parents and the legislatures,not the educators or the students. Unfetter teachers, make parents accountable, legislatures have to do their job instead of trying to privatize schools for big financial kickbacks.

In the rush to privatize the country’s schools, corporations and politicians have decimated school budgets, replaced teaching with standardized testing, and placed the blame on teachers and students.

Dunno what standard they're using to determine success or failure, but I use global education rankings. US consistently comes in at 20th or worse compared to other countries. By this metric we're absolutely a failure.

 

[DGS49]

The public schools and the people who work in them are generally well-intentioned, and most of them do a reasonably good job under the circumstances.

But turning over the education of the nation's youth to Government Workers was something that doomed it to - if not failure, then - mediocrity. "Strike two" was refusing to accept the obvious fact that full citizenship rights are incompatible with education. "Strike three" was collective bargaining for teachers.

People go to work for the government because they want decent pay, job security, and early retirement. That's true whether you are talking about trash collectors, police, college educated bureaucrats, or school teachers. That doesn't make them bad people, but it tends to work against excellence. Coming in Saturdays...I don't think so.

Allow me to give you an example. I worked for a manufacturer one time, and we had a product line that was becoming less and less profitable as time went on. Management took everyone working on that line, from engineers and draftsmen, to factory workers to inspectors and so on, and they told them that if the product line did not become more profitable (with a six month deadline), it would be shut down or sold to another company, and their jobs were at risk. The transformation was incredible. Workers on the line figured out how to make things cheaper, the Buyers found better and cheaper vendors, the engineers did their "value engineering" thing, and within the six month period that product line had a gross margin over 50%. If people are motivated they can do things.

Now consider a high school principle whose students' - let's say - math test scores are mediocre. Is there any analogous course of events that could take place in a public school? Especially one where the teachers have a union? N. F. W.

Make it a for-profit school, however, and the same thing could happen as in the manufacturing example. Those teachers and administrators would be looking at modifying the curriculum, extra homework, changes to the school day, coming in on Saturdays, bringing in college students as tutors, and a hundred other things to get the scores up. But in a government school, it will never happen. Maybe in a charter school.

And look at the deleterious effects of giving students their so-called Constitutional rights. You can't punish them anymore, and THEY KNOW IT. You can't touch them. You can't force them to do anything they aren't willing to do. And on the flip side, they know that if they attack a teacher or a fellow student, the ramifications will be minimal. This problem is worst in the inner-cities, where there are numerous hoodie-wearing gangsters in almost every classroom. Who could teach effectively in that environment?

And to mentions unions just briefly, they are simply a matter of putting the Government Worker factor on Steroids. We have a situation locally where the union is threatening to file an unfair labor practice because a special needs kid is being allowed to use the faculty restroom. 18 teacher complaints and a threatened walkout. Because they don't want to have to go to the same bathroom as a student (wheelchair bound, can't get to the second floor, where the student bathrooms are).

And these are supposedly adults. Teachers.

Jesus.

 

[hadit]

Education in the USA is pretty pizz poor , I think that the idea is to dumb down the American kids so that they are on the same level as the mass of third worlders that are being imported into the USA . Course my kids are grown and educated Jake !!

It should be noted that the U.S. has one of the highest spending levels for education among industrialized countries.

Which of course begs the question, if some are bemoaning the "slashing" of school budgets, where is the money going? That question needs to be answered honestly before throwing more money on the fire.

 

[pismoe]

I don't know Hadit , my kids being grown I really pay little attention . Couple of things I do notice is the kids in grade or junior high always seem to be on a break or off for some kinda teachers conference or the weather is too hot , cold or there was a cougar or bear sighting in the area . Teachers though still collect a paycheck . Also , in the last couple of years I see mothers taking babies that are still wearing diapers to some kind of 'pre pre pre ' school for breakfast , lunch or baby sitting so the mother gets some kinda break and of course some ones money is spent on those programs .

 

[initforme]

Imagine having to deal with Americas ilk and failing parents, then be blamed for low test scores(which are NO measure of effectiveness unless the teacher is allowed to teach solely to the test), then be blamed for failure while getting your pay and benefits reduced. What the GOP wants is privatized education by people who will teach for $20,000 a year with no benefits... and the best ones are hated the most. Describes this country to a T. There are a ton of teachers that do a good job that have surrendered their earning potential in the private sector(in which they could make triple) to work with Americas youth- and they are vilified. This country frankly isn't very smart. The truth, the honest truth, hurts.

 

[pismoe]

its the PUBLIC unions 'init' , they are terrible as far as public employees go . Public employee unions are no good for the taxpayers that do the employing . I have no problem with Private unions . Public school teachers are 'Over paid' in my opinion , same as other public employees , servants . Let the teachers go earn triple , ok with me !!

 

[initforme]

Public school teachers are underpaid in my opinion, as most of those in the private sector would cry and be reduced to tears if they had to do the job for a year. The average CEO is overrate do basically nothing to earn their exorbitant salary.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"
New
think that lots of those kids are living in their moms basements 'init' , anyway , that's what I hear . As far as high wages these kids that do get jobs are making less money then I made in 1981 . And they have no benefits like I had and many young adults have huge student loans to pay off which is something I didn't have to worry about . "

Well you are correct that the plan to take down the middle class is being masterfully orchestrated. As far as the civil war, slavery was only one aspect. But you must admit that slave owners were scum.

IOW, you have been a victim of the same STATE indoctrination that the kids are being subjected to.

In hindsight, according to OUR morals and ethics of today, yes, we can fairly judge an economic system we did away with nearly a century and a half ago that existed for thousands of years, that hundreds of nations did a way with peacefully, was morally repugnant. However, that is a smokescreen that your indoctrination has been foisted on you to accept the myth that federal power is legitimate and the rights of states and the sovereign individual are not supreme as outlined in the Constitution.

Like I said, indoctrination.

My understanding is that the purpose of public education is not so much state indoctrination but capitalist indoctrination. This explains why school systems are designed like businesses, with hierarchies, quantification of performance, and standardization. The goal is to create efficient and obedient workers and consumers.

Yup, #26 above. But the system also creates critical thinkers that can objectively evaluated the strengths and weaknesses of the system.

 

[ScienceRocks]

I really wish our public schools would refocus back to math, science, reading, writing and a focus on innovation. The idea of men being all evil and white people need to pay has fucked us badly.