The Limits of Science

[zaangalewa]

Maybe this article is better for alang1216.

I talked about it it above, but just confused zaangalewa.

JWST detected something weird that has puzzled the scientists. What do you think?

Scientists Puzzled Because James Webb Is Seeing Stuff That Shouldn't Be There

Scientists have long thought early galaxies to be chaotic, misshapen messes — but new James Webb imagery proves that theory to be completely false.

futurism.com

This article says nothing with many words.

Take a look at here: Frühe Sternentstehung nach dem Urknall

This article said in 2018 that ~250 million years after the big bang first stars appeared. The fotos are from the telescope Alma in Chile and refer to the galaxy MACS1149-JD1.

So what exactly found out the James Webb telescope?

 

[ReinyDays]

james bond

One of the basic "problems" of natural science is it to need mathematics which is a spiritual science. But this not means physics and mathematics are the same. It is not clear whether we invent mathematics (~psychology) or whether we discover mathematics (physics) - but it should be clear that we discover physics and physics is not fantasy. Physics exists independent from us. And only experiments and observations tell us what's true in physics. We have to ask nature whether we are right or wrong if we like to find something out about our natural background. What you say about natural science sounds in my ears always only like empty phrases without any real background.

Mathematics is used as a language ... it's how we communication unambiguously ... and like language, math is strictly human invention ... i.e. physics causes math, not the other way around ... math can do many other things, but it's use as a language may well be it's most important roll ...

 

[expat_panama]

The most pressing need is what is the mysterious dark matter and dark energy

--or even if they exist at all.

A hundred years ago most astronomers were convinced that there was some "dark planet" near the sun perturbing Mercury's orbit because it did not properly conform to Newton's laws. Later Einstein proved it was the Sun's warping of space/time that caused the variances. There may be some (as yet) unknown but later to be discovered explanation for the dark matter/energy ideas.

 

[Quasar44]

--or even if they exist at all.

A hundred years ago most astronomers were convinced that there was some "dark planet" near the sun perturbing Mercury's orbit because it did not properly conform to Newton's laws. Later Einstein proved it was the Sun's warping of space/time that caused the variances. There may be some (as yet) unknown but later to be discovered explanation for the dark matter/energy ideas.

It’s well known that is there by Einstein’s general relativity

 

[expat_panama]

It’s well known that is there by Einstein’s general relativity

Now it is, sure. A hundred years ago it wasn't, and the best minds were saying "dark planet". We now know how wrong that was. Now the best minds are saying "dark matter & energy". The question now is are we about to find out how wrong that is too?

 

[james bond]

This article says nothing with many words.

Take a look at here: Frühe Sternentstehung nach dem Urknall

This article said in 2018 that ~250 million years after the big bang first stars appeared. The fotos are from the telescope Alma in Chile and refer to the galaxy MACS1149-JD1.

So what exactly found out the James Webb telescope?

Here's a more recent one and they're talking about the mature universe discovery.

 

[Hollie]

Here's a more recent one and they're talking about the mature universe discovery.

Spamming the board with nonsense from Godier.

‘’John Michael Godier is a science communicator, futurist and YouTuber.””

Does he also own a crystal ball and tells fortunes at carnival side shows?

 

[zaangalewa]

Mathematics is used as a language

What is the element "language" in case of an Hilbertraum (German word) ... ah sorry: not "Hilber dream" but "Hilbert space" - for example?

... it's how we communication unambiguously ... and like language, math is strictly human invention ...

Are you very good in the "language" mathematics? I doubt this. If it would be a human language we would often be very wrong with most things what mathematicians would speak and we would perhaps even make war because of such misunderstandings. A football war had happened once - but a mathematics war? To find something out in mathematics often needs long centuries. And although never in nature exists a perfect circle - except perhaps in the event horizon of a black hole - how to argue that Pi is an invention and not a discovery? The circumferrence divided by the diameter of a circle is pi - what had been a cultural shock for the ancient Greek culture. But this is true. And it needed a long time to find out more about this. In the end we have to say: Either existed circles - or "one circle", created, not evolved - in the big bang on its own or we never had had a chance to make a physics which finds out somehting aout the big bang and the 13.8 billion years after.

i.e. physics causes math, not the other way around ...

What's nonsense. Mathematics is totally independent from physics. But physics without mathematics is nearly helpless. You can see by the way the beauty of mathematics combined with physics very nice in Keplers laws. Even Mr. Spock was fascinated when he saw this.

math can do many other things, but it's use as a language may well be it's most important roll ...

We need language to communicate with each other - but language not creates mountains and oceans - except perhaps the creating timeless word of god. But not anyone speaks "god" on our planet. But more and more people use the tool "mathematics".

 

[james bond]

Spamming the board with nonsense from Godier.

‘’John Michael Godier is a science communicator, futurist and YouTuber.””

Does he also own a crystal ball and tells fortunes at carnival side shows?

C'mon, it backed up what I said as well as the article. Where's the evolutionists youtube on the Big Bang? If that's the way it happened, then it didn't start with tiny particles and tremendous amounts of heat. We can see the great expansion.

 

[james bond]

What's nonsense. Mathematics is totally independent from physics. But physics without mathematics is nearly helpless.

We need language to communicate with each other - but language not creates mountains and oceans - except perhaps the creating timeless word of god. But not anyone speaks "god" on our planet. But more and more people use the tool "mathematics".

Math can be a tool such as in our basic addition, subtraction, multipli... etc., but it was discovered. Humans invented accounting, but God created mathematics.

 

[Hollie]

C'mon, it backed up what I said as well as the article. Where's the evolutionists youtube on the Big Bang? If that's the way it happened, then it didn't start with tiny particles and tremendous amounts of heat. We can see the great expansion.

C'mon. A silly ""futurist" is the star of your silly youtube video.

Any youtube videos ''backing up" your Flat Earth"?

 

[james bond]

This article says nothing with many words.

Take a look at here: Frühe Sternentstehung nach dem Urknall

This article said in 2018 that ~250 million years after the big bang first stars appeared. The fotos are from the telescope Alma in Chile and refer to the galaxy MACS1149-JD1.

So what exactly found out the James Webb telescope?

So, what did you find with you physics, math and article about our universe? Is that what you want to discuss? If not, what is your point?

My JWST youtube and article has found a mature universe throughout even from the point of the Big Bang. It means that the universe did not start off with smaller or younger planets and bodies. It means the universe was mature from the beginning. How does that happen? I'll give your points one. What about our stars?

 

[zaangalewa]

Mathematics is used as a language ... it's how we communication unambiguously ... and like language, math is strictly human invention ... i.e. physics causes math, not the other way around ...

It's an interesting form of belief what you say here - but nothing more. Let me separate the word physics into two parts as this is used in the German language then physics is the science of the physis. "Physis" is the "bodily nature" - or everything what is able to be measured. So how could the physis cause mathematics if this is an invention of human beings?

math can do many other things, but it's use as a language may well be it's most important roll ...

Still we are not able to decide whether mathematics is an art or a science or both. And to call arts for example "a language" - or a science to call "a language" - makes somehow sense in the human communication about arts and the human communication about science - but it makes for exampel not any sense to say a forest is a language. Nevertheless science shows some new things about forests what we are only able to see when we study it systematically. I don't see in science per se and I don't see in arts per se a language. The understanding of arts and science is different from our ways how we communicate about. Arts for example was always since the very first beginning perfect - what doesn't mean every single artefact is perfect.



Die Seele ist ein Vogel = The soul is a bird.

 

[zaangalewa]

Math can be a tool such as in our basic addition, subtraction, multipli... etc., but it was discovered. Humans invented accounting, but God created mathematics.

Jesus was a mathematician?

 

[ReinyDays]

It's an interesting form of belief what you say here - but nothing more. Let me separate the word physics into two parts as this is used in the German language then physics is the science of the physis. "Physis" is the "bodily nature" - or everything what is able to be measured. So how could the physis cause mathematics if this is an invention of human beings?



Still we are not able to decide whether mathematics is an art or a science or both. And to call arts for example "a language" - or a science to call "a language" - makes somehow sense in the human communication about arts and the human communication about science - but it makes for exampel not any sense to say a forest is a language. Nevertheless science shows some new things about forests what we are only able to see when we study it systematically. I don't see in science per se and I don't see in arts per se a language. The understanding of arts and science is different from our ways how we communicate about. Arts for example was always since the very first beginning perfect - what doesn't mean every single artefact is perfect.



Die Seele ist ein Vogel = The soul is a bird.

Go back and explain how you're using Hilbert Spaces to solve these n-body gravitation problems ... without using math ... I'm just ITCHIN' to find out how (and why) you're using vector multiplication here ...

Let's review ... my exact quote is "Mathematics is used as a language" ... and off you go arguing the Strawman saying math isn't language ... when I never said it was ... I could type in the first half of any calculus textbook ... OR I could type in ∫ f'(x) dx = f(x) + C ... see how I use math AS language ... one short equation and the student is ready for Analytical Geometry ...

ETA: How are you defining this vector multiplication over second-order tensors ... can't say I've ever seen this using stress ...

Hilbert Space ... that's funny ...

 

[zaangalewa]

Go back and explain how you're using Hilbert Spaces to solve these n-body gravitation problems ...

I never said the n-body problem is solvable with "Hilber dreams" (German: Hilbertraum = Hilber-traum) or "Hilbert space" (German: Hilbertraum = Hilbert-raum). I used this expression in a poetic way that words are only placeholders for contents. The word "mother" is not a mother but a word. It creates the category "mother" - but not any of all this mothers is the same mother like any other mother. But every electron for example is exactly the same electron like any other electron. Every mass is exactly the same like any other mass. Only the amount of mass is different. So such systems like electrons or masses have much less degrees of freedom. A mother is using a language. But an electron or a mass ... or a forest? So the question in this context is: When we use mathematics by solving problems of physics - what means this?
Concrete: Is the completely determined system of three (and more) masses not sovlable because mathematics is the problem or because physics is the problem? When we watch a Tripendulum (or higher) then we see a chaotic system which we are not able to solve. When we start it we will never know at which postion in space the arms of the tripendulum will show to us after a little time. And we ewr also able to simulate a tripendulum on a PC - so it seems the mathematics which we use is also correct. But what we are not able to do is to start a real tripendulum and to simulate this tripendulum with a computer so the computer shows the exact way of this unique tripendulum in reality. With "profane" words: we see "the soul" of a tripendulum - and we see the body of a tripendulim. Both have no degrees of freedom and are absolutelly predetermined. But we are not able to connect the soul and the body of a tripendulum.

...

This answer was a little longer. I will later read the rest of you letter. If you'll find a spelling mistake or grammar mistake then you may keep it.

...

 

[james bond]

Jesus was a mathematician?

C'mon. I've been using the JWST and the Bible as a tool to forecast what it will find in our universe.

You may be versed in what you discussed, but you have not been able to discuss what we'll find. While you may be able to do the math and equations with your toolsm such as in school, you don't seem to be using in to tell us your discoveries. Are you like an accountant who just follows what his boss tells him to do? Or do you use your tools to help you to discover our world like I do?

 

[james bond]

Still we are not able to decide whether mathematics is an art or a science or both

I can see why you can't decide as you're more an intellectual than a realist.

Britannica calls it a science of "structure, order, and relation that has evolved from elemental practices of counting, measuring, and describing the shapes of objects. It deals with logical reasoning and quantitative calculation, and its development has involved an increasing degree of idealization and abstraction of its subject matter."

It may not be a science as it isn't empirical.

 

[ReinyDays]

I never said the n-body problem is solvable with "Hilber dreams" (German: Hilbertraum = Hilber-traum) or "Hilbert space" (German: Hilbertraum = Hilbert-raum). I used this expression in a poetic way that words are only placeholders for contents. The word "mother" is not a mother but a word. It creates the category "mother" - but not any of all this mothers is the same mother like any other mother. But every electron for example is exactly the same electron like any other electron. Every mass is exactly the same like any other mass. Only the amount of mass is different. So such systems like electrons or masses have much less degrees of freedom. A mother is using a language. But an electron or a mass ... or a forest? So the question in this context is: When we use mathematics by solving problems of physics - what means this?
Concrete: Is the completely determined system of three (and more) masses not sovlable because mathematics is the problem or because physics is the problem? When we watch a Tripendulum (or higher) then we see a chaotic system which we are not able to solve. When we start it we will never know at which postion in space the arms of the tripendulum will show to us after a little time. And we ewr also able to simulate a tripendulum on a PC - so it seems the mathematics which we use is also correct. But what we are not able to do is to start a real tripendulum and to simulate this tripendulum with a computer so the computer shows the exact way of this unique tripendulum in reality. With "profane" words: we see "the soul" of a tripendulum - and we see the body of a tripendulim. Both have no degrees of freedom and are absolutelly predetermined. But we are not able to connect the soul and the body of a tripendulum.

...

This answer was a little longer. I will later read the rest of you letter. If you'll find a spelling mistake or grammar mistake then you may keep it.

...

I used this expression in a poetic way that words are only placeholders for contents.

Then why the criticism when I do this? ... and why a Hilbert Space? ... and why a "placeholder"? ...

What is the element "language" in case of an Hilbertraum (German word) ... ah sorry: not "Hilber dream" but "Hilbert space" - for example?

Well, the complete set of gravity vectors described by Newton's Law would form a Hilbert Space ... but all the work perform values that are calculated from these gravity vectors do not form a Hilbert Space ... so my question: does Einstein's gravity tensors also form a Hilbert Space, and how are you defining tensor multiplication ...

... or are you just bullshitting us? ...

 

[zaangalewa]

Go back and explain how you're using Hilbert Spaces to solve these n-body gravitation problems ... without using math ... I'm just ITCHIN' to find out how (and why) you're using vector multiplication here ...

I do not use vector multiplications here.

Let's review ... my exact quote is "Mathematics is used as a language" ...

This sentence means verbally and/or philosophically that mathematics per se is not a language but is used from us as if it would be a language. But if I am right then you think mathematics is a language on its own.

Perhaps again a little inter mez-zo, a little "Gedanken-strich", a little "dash" : What do we do when we use [a] language? First of all: How do we do learn our "native" language? In a naive way: By singing and poems, isn't it? By formation of sounds and "rhymes" - elements which we repeat. Slowly we learn to combine our thoughts and emotions with sounds - while we learn the same time to feel and to think - and later we learn to represent this sounds with scribble. Indeed we learn with language nothing else than to speak and to read thoughts and emotions. We are telepaths - who use sounds and/or writing.

and off you go arguing the Strawman

So you say here you said something and I spoke about something else what you see as a hurting of rules how everyone has to think so you are able always to be right. What you do here is to transfer an English form of political discussion into science. But in science not exist winners and losers. Science follows the medical doctrine: "Who heals is right!".

saying math isn't language ... when I never said it was ... I could type in the first half of any calculus textbook ... OR I could type in ∫ f'(x) dx = f(x) + C ... see how I use math AS language ... one short equation and the student is ready for Analytical Geometry ...

ETA: How are you defining this vector multiplication over second-order tensors ... can't say I've ever seen this using stress ...

Hilbert Space ... that's funny ...

I'm sure you are convinced 2+2=4. But when you have a rope with 2 nodes and another rope with two nodes and you knot them together - how many words - or how much pounds of language - did you need to do so? And what happens when you count the nodes now? Then suddenly 2+2=5. And this is true! But the part of mathemctis which is in the physis, in the reality, all around did not change - only our psychological view to a special "problem" in context of mathematics changed.