Zone1 The incredible writing of The Book of Mormon

[Cougarbear]

Open and explain ALL the facts listed about the writing of The Book of Mormon through the Prophet Joseph Smith…It’s impossible except through the Holy Ghost and the guidance from God.

 

[SweetSue92]

Open and explain ALL the facts listed about the writing of The Book of Mormon through the Prophet Joseph Smith…It’s impossible except through the Holy Ghost and the guidance from God.

Right, we know. We know you all rely on the "burning in the bosom" because without that, the entire thing is ludicrous. I mean this guy had magic rocks in a hat, and that's the truth.

Then he married some 14 yo.

 

[JoeB131]

Well, there are also the chunks that were plagiarized from the King James Bible.

But Mark Twain said it best when he called the BoM, "Ether in printed form."

 

[Zebra]

Well, there are also the chunks that were plagiarized from the King James Bible.

But Mark Twain said it best when he called the BoM, "Ether in printed form."

ok!

 

[Cougarbear]

Right, we know. We know you all rely on the "burning in the bosom" because without that, the entire thing is ludicrous. I mean this guy had magic rocks in a hat, and that's the truth.

Then he married some 14 yo.

What burning in the bosom? Did you watch the video? Do you want to remain ignorant your entire life? Watch the video and then answer the question. How was this done by Joseph Smith in less than 3 months by someone who was basically illiterate? Please, show some intellectual curiosity instead of pure hatred about those things you don't understand? The fear you show is really sad. You can't even watch a 2 minute video and read a book. The fear you show is amazing. And no, he did not marry a 14 year old. He was sealed to her. Do you know what that means? No. The person you refer to wrote and spoke many times that there was no sex in their sealing. They did not live together. The best I can explain it for your limited intellectual level of understanding is the concept of arranged marriages without the marriage. See, the marriage would have been null in void had it actually happened due to the laws against bigamy at the time. Sealings are something you should do some study on from our Church website. LDS.org.

 

[SweetSue92]

What burning in the bosom? Did you watch the video? Do you want to remain ignorant your entire life? Watch the video and then answer the question. How was this done by Joseph Smith in less than 3 months by someone who was basically illiterate? Please, show some intellectual curiosity instead of pure hatred about those things you don't understand? The fear you show is really sad. You can't even watch a 2 minute video and read a book. The fear you show is amazing. And no, he did not marry a 14 year old. He was sealed to her. Do you know what that means? No. The person you refer to wrote and spoke many times that there was no sex in their sealing. They did not live together. The best I can explain it for your limited intellectual level of understanding is the concept of arranged marriages without the marriage. See, the marriage would have been null in void had it actually happened due to the laws against bigamy at the time. Sealings are something you should do some study on from our Church website. LDS.org.

I am not afraid and I don't hate. These are facts. Joseph Smith peered into a hat and looked at rocks to get these "visions"

 

[JoeB131]

What burning in the bosom? Did you watch the video? Do you want to remain ignorant your entire life? Watch the video and then answer the question. How was this done by Joseph Smith in less than 3 months by someone who was basically illiterate?

Well, large chunks of it were plagiarized from the King James Bible.

I would ask questions like, after Martin Harris "lost" the first 116 pages that Smith "translated", why was Smith unable to retranslate those pages?

Lost 116 pages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How did these golden plates for a 531 Page book fit into a hat? That must have been a big hat!!!

How is it that the BoM describes an elaborate Nephite/Lamanite civilization, yet we have not found ONE shred of archeological or anthropological shred of its existence? The Nephite civilization lasted as long as the Roman Empire. Yet not one ruined city, not one coin, not one inscription has been found.

(* - Note- at this time period, they were starting to find the remains of the Mound Builder civilizations in North America, but being as racist as we were at the time, we initially refused to believe that non-Whites could have accomplished anything like this. We now know that's exactly who built these things. Smith wasn't even the first guy to posit that the Hebrews must have done it.)

How can the BoM have described grains (including wheat and barley) and animals (including horses and elephants) that we know didn't exist in pre-Columbian America?

(*Note on this one, what they were finding at the time was the fossils of mammoths and equines, but these animals were extinct long before the events of the BoM happened.)


Why did Joseph Smith claim to have translated the Book of Abraham from an Egyptian Papyrus, only for those Papyri to later be determined to be a Ptolemaic-era funerary scroll? (This was before the Rosetta Stone was translated and allowed us to read hieroglyphics)

Book of Abraham - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why did Smith claim that the Kinderhook tablets were an account in "Reformed Egyptian" when, in fact, they turned out to be a fraud played by his neighbors?

Kinderhook plates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now, applying Occam's Razor, that the simplest explanation must be accurate, then the most straightforward answer is, "Joseph Smith made it all up!"

And no, he did not marry a 14 year old. He was sealed to her. Do you know what that means? No. The person you refer to wrote and spoke many times that there was no sex in their sealing. They did not live together.

He didn't just marry ONE teenager, he married Several.

List of Joseph Smith's wives - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fanny Alger was 16
Sarah Ann Whitney - 17
Flora Ann Woodworth - 16
Lucy Walker - 17
Sarah Lawrence - 17
Helen Mar Kimball - 14
Nancy Maria Winchester - 14

Kimball is an interesting case. Here's what she said.

[My father] asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph ... [Smith] said to me, 'If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father's household & all of your kindred.['] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward.|

Frankly, this sounds like something that one of David Koresh's child brides would have said.

Now, a couple of points. I can find just as many things wrong with the Bible, or the Quran, or Dianetics. This is why I'm largely irreligious: I look at fantastic stories with doubt.

 

[Cougarbear]

I am not afraid and I don't hate. These are facts. Joseph Smith peered into a hat and looked at rocks to get these "visions"

YES!!! He did not have the knowledge of what we understand as “translation.” He could not have translated the plates by himself or anyone else in that time frame! He used the seer stones of the Urim and Trumim to do the translation. And, as Isaiah said the marvelous work and wonder of a book which had been sealed up in the ground, it would be understood and transcribed by an UNLEARNED MAN! What a testimony!

 

[Cougarbear]

Well, large chunks of it were plagiarized from the King James Bible.

I would ask questions like, after Martin Harris "lost" the first 116 pages that Smith "translated", why was Smith unable to retranslate those pages?

Lost 116 pages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How did these golden plates for a 531 Page book fit into a hat? That must have been a big hat!!!

How is it that the BoM describes an elaborate Nephite/Lamanite civilization, yet we have not found ONE shred of archeological or anthropological shred of its existence? The Nephite civilization lasted as long as the Roman Empire. Yet not one ruined city, not one coin, not one inscription has been found.

(* - Note- at this time period, they were starting to find the remains of the Mound Builder civilizations in North America, but being as racist as we were at the time, we initially refused to believe that non-Whites could have accomplished anything like this. We now know that's exactly who built these things. Smith wasn't even the first guy to posit that the Hebrews must have done it.)

How can the BoM have described grains (including wheat and barley) and animals (including horses and elephants) that we know didn't exist in pre-Columbian America?

(*Note on this one, what they were finding at the time was the fossils of mammoths and equines, but these animals were extinct long before the events of the BoM happened.)


Why did Joseph Smith claim to have translated the Book of Abraham from an Egyptian Papyrus, only for those Papyri to later be determined to be a Ptolemaic-era funerary scroll? (This was before the Rosetta Stone was translated and allowed us to read hieroglyphics)

Book of Abraham - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why did Smith claim that the Kinderhook tablets were an account in "Reformed Egyptian" when, in fact, they turned out to be a fraud played by his neighbors?

Kinderhook plates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now, applying Occam's Razor, that the simplest explanation must be accurate, then the most straightforward answer is, "Joseph Smith made it all up!"



He didn't just marry ONE teenager, he married Several.

List of Joseph Smith's wives - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fanny Alger was 16
Sarah Ann Whitney - 17
Flora Ann Woodworth - 16
Lucy Walker - 17
Sarah Lawrence - 17
Helen Mar Kimball - 14
Nancy Maria Winchester - 14

Kimball is an interesting case. Here's what she said.

[My father] asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph ... [Smith] said to me, 'If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father's household & all of your kindred.['] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward.|

Frankly, this sounds like something that one of David Koresh's child brides would have said.

Now, a couple of points. I can find just as many things wrong with the Bible, or the Quran, or Dianetics. This is why I'm largely irreligious: I look at fantastic stories with doubt.

This is fantastic! You understand that there was no way for the unlearned man to have been able to translate the plates for the Book of Mormon and the writings for the Pearl of Great Price. Congratulations!
I don’t have the time right now to answer specifics about each point you make. But many have and you have the ability to get each question answered. I’ll just point out briefly a couple:
1. Joseph didn’t put the plates in a hat. He took the seer stones off the Urim and Tumum and put them into the had and was shown what was on each leaf and spoke what he was told in the visions of each leaf. Same process for the Pearl of Great Price. He was an unlearned man as Isaiah described in chapter 29 of Isaiah.
2. Joseph Smith was sealed to the girls you mentioned and not married to them. That would be against the law and he states in the 13 Articles of Faith that we uphold and sustain the law of the land in which we live in. Instead, he was sealed to these girls. It’s a sealing not for earthly time but for eternal time after our judgment and resurrection. Think of it like many countries and people match spouses with their young children way before they are of age to be married and consummate the marriage. That’s why there was no consummation with these girls. They were underage. Just basically arranged sealings for all eternity. I am married on this earth with my wife as marriage cannot be given in heaven. But, sealings can be made on earth for the eternity’s in heaven.

 

[JoeB131]

This is fantastic! You understand that there was no way for the unlearned man to have been able to translate the plates for the Book of Mormon and the writings for the Pearl of Great Price. Congratulations!

Unlearned doesn't mean illiterate. I will give him credit for being a prolific writers with a vivid imagination. That doesn't mean he was talking to God.

Your statement assumes there were plates to translate. Except no one outside his inner circle ever saw these plates.

I don’t have the time right now to answer specifics about each point you make. But many have and you have the ability to get each question answered.

I think you should take the time to answer them, because they are valid points.

1. Joseph didn’t put the plates in a hat. He took the seer stones off the Urim and Tumum and put them into the had and was shown what was on each leaf and spoke what he was told in the visions of each leaf. Same process for the Pearl of Great Price. He was an unlearned man as Isaiah described in chapter 29 of Isaiah.

That sounds kind of fantastical... especially since no one saw these plates or the magic stones. I'm guessing someone did see the hat, though.

2. Joseph Smith was sealed to the girls you mentioned and not married to them. That would be against the law and he states in the 13 Articles of Faith that we uphold and sustain the law of the land in which we live in. Instead, he was sealed to these girls.

Come on, guy. Nobody believes that. If this was just a spiritual thing, then why did Brigham "likes them" Young have 64 wives? Are you saying he wasn't having sex with them, either? (Because he managed to father 56 Children)

Yes, what Smith did WAS against the law. But the man was chased out of three different states for breaking various laws; I don't think that bothered him that much.

 

[Cougarbear]

Unlearned doesn't mean illiterate. I will give him credit for being a prolific writers with a vivid imagination. That doesn't mean he was talking to God.

Your statement assumes there were plates to translate. Except no one outside his inner circle ever saw these plates.


I think you should take the time to answer them, because they are valid points.



That sounds kind of fantastical... especially since no one saw these plates or the magic stones. I'm guessing someone did see the hat, though.



Come on, guy. Nobody believes that. If this was just a spiritual thing, then why did Brigham "likes them" Young have 64 wives? Are you saying he wasn't having sex with them, either? (Because he managed to father 56 Children)

Yes, what Smith did WAS against the law. But the man was chased out of three different states for breaking various laws; I don't think that bothered him that much.

You really are unable to reason logically. Really!
You aren’t my boss so don’t tell me I have to answer all your silly questions and accusations. Narcissist!
Brigham Young married women of age. If any were not of age he was only sealed and no sexual activity. Same with Joseph Smith and Abraham.
He was chased out for being a threat to the politicians, not for breaking any law. You have no historical knowledge.
The 11 witnesses all saw the plates. Even when they left the church or kicked out they never would deny what they saw and those that heard the Lord and saw angels. Why do you lie? It doesn’t work.
If you read my list that was in the video you would say for the purpose of translating reformed Egyptian into English he was illiterate as well as unlearned or uneducated.
Instead, you refuse to be educated by reading or watching the video and to do way more in depth studies including what pro LDS write and have to say. You aren’t showing that you are unlearned on this subject.

 

[onefour1]

A good video on The Book of Mormon:

 

[Cougarbear]

A good video on The Book of Mormon:

I'm waiting for the strawman arguments from the peanut gallery. I'm waiting for someone to say someone else must have written it that was educated. The problem with that is whoever they say did it could not have known the things this video shows that are in the Book of Mormon either. So, all the peanut gallery can do is throw out a strawman argument.

 

[JoeB131]

You really are unable to reason logically. Really!
You aren’t my boss so don’t tell me I have to answer all your silly questions and accusations. Narcissist!
Brigham Young married women of age. If any were not of age he was only sealed and no sexual activity. Same with Joseph Smith and Abraham.

And my parents sent our dog to live with a Nice Farm Family.

He was chased out for being a threat to the politicians, not for breaking any law. You have no historical knowledge.

let's review.

Chased out of NY to avoid a fraud charge for selling fake Divining rods.
Chased out of Ohio for bank fraud with the Kirtland Bank scandal.
Chased out of Missouri for sending Danite terror squads to intimidate the "genitles" (Causing Gov. Boggs to issue the Extermination Order)
Killed in Illinois after destroying the offices of Navou Inquistor, and then threatening the town of Carthage with his Militia.

The 11 witnesses all saw the plates. Even when they left the church or kicked out they never would deny what they saw and those that heard the Lord and saw angels. Why do you lie? It doesn’t work.

Except for those witnesses who left, they came back. Not sure that proves anything. Do you have any independent witnesses?

The original three witnesses were Crowdery, Harris, and Whitmer, who split off for a while to form their own Church. (this is important later.)

So of the 8 Witnesses, 3 of them were related to Joseph Smith (including his brothers and father). Four others were members of the Whitner Family, who founded their own split-away church.

Clearly, David Whitner wasn't going to come out and say, "Well, I was part of the LDS Fraud, but you can totally believe this new Church I'm founding!" Nor were the members of his family who claimed to be witnesses. Especially if that would in turn subject them to charges of fraud.

If you read my list that was in the video you would say for the purpose of translating reformed Egyptian into English he was illiterate as well as unlearned or uneducated.

Except no evidence he was "illiterate".

Instead, you refuse to be educated by reading or watching the video and to do way more in depth studies including what pro LDS write and have to say. You aren’t showing that you are unlearned on this subject.

I grew up Catholic, and was told growing up that all sorts of frauds were proof of the Divine (The Shroud of Turin, the incident of Fatima, Mother Theresa, etc.) Then I got out in the real world and discovered the Shroud was a medieval forgery, the kids at Fatima were probably delusional, and Mother Theresa was a real piece of work.

So I tend to look at any claims of some divine inspiration as a bit suspect.

In the case of Joseph Smith, how many times can you catch the guy lying before you realize he has no credibility?

 

[Cougarbear]

let's review.

Chased out of NY to avoid a fraud charge for selling fake Divining rods.
Chased out of Ohio for bank fraud with the Kirtland Bank scandal.
Chased out of Missouri for sending Danite terror squads to intimidate the "genitles" (Causing Gov. Boggs to issue the Extermination Order)
Killed in Illinois after destroying the offices of Navou Inquistor, and then threatening the town of Carthage with his Militia.

Nope. You do not know this. Period. None of it is true. It's information perhaps from anti-Mormon persons giving false information. That's all.

Except for those witnesses who left, they came back. Not sure that proves anything. Do you have any independent witnesses?

Don't need anymore. There are your 11.

The original three witnesses were Crowdery, Harris, and Whitmer, who split off for a while to form their own Church. (this is important later.)

So of the 8 Witnesses, 3 of them were related to Joseph Smith (including his brothers and father). Four others were members of the Whitner Family, who founded their own split-away church.

Clearly, David Whitner wasn't going to come out and say, "Well, I was part of the LDS Fraud, but you can totally believe this new Church I'm founding!" Nor were the members of his family who claimed to be witnesses. Especially if that would in turn subject them to charges of fraud.

Immaterial.

Except no evidence he was "illiterate".

Plenty of it. All these are nothing more than strawman arguments. No proof. Nothing.

 

[JoeB131]

Don't need anymore. There are your 11.

11 that had familial connections or vested interests.

No court would have taken these 11 witnesses at face value.

And when compounded with...

His failure to properly translate the Kinderhook Tablets
His failure to properly translate the Book of Abraham
His long history of frauds committed in other states (often abetted by these same "Witnesses".)
His prophecies which turned out to be false. (People living on the Moon in Quaker Dress was my favorite.)

Then you have to take his word with a healthy dose of skepticism.

But even if the witnesses were reliable, you still have the problem of the Book of Mormon giving a history of things that straight up didn't happen.

Hebrews did not emigrate to the Americas.
They did not build a huge civilization
They did not ride on horses and elephants
They did not wield swords or mint coins.
They did not grow wheat or barley.
They did not all get turned into dark skinned people because God was angry at them.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

if anyone, including an angel, preaches a different gospel than the one already taught, that person should be considered "accursed" or "anathema"

 

[Cougarbear]

11 that had familial connections or vested interests.

No court would have taken these 11 witnesses at face value.

And when compounded with...

His failure to properly translate the Kinderhook Tablets
His failure to properly translate the Book of Abraham
His long history of frauds committed in other states (often abetted by these same "Witnesses".)
His prophecies which turned out to be false. (People living on the Moon in Quaker Dress was my favorite.)

Then you have to take his word with a healthy dose of skepticism.

But even if the witnesses were reliable, you still have the problem of the Book of Mormon giving a history of things that straight up didn't happen.

Hebrews did not emigrate to the Americas.
They did not build a huge civilization
They did not ride on horses and elephants
They did not wield swords or mint coins.
They did not grow wheat or barley.
They did not all get turned into dark skinned people because God was angry at them.

Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman, Strawman,

The people who were witnesses continued even if excommunicated to not deny their testimonies. Could have been easily persuaded to but never did. They had no vested interest once out of the Church. And, the Church was poor anyways.
Kinderhook Plates: They were fake. So, they was nothing to translate. He may have attempted to use the seer stones since he knew nothing about translating the symbols and nothing happened or was told by God they were fake. End of strawman story.
Book of Abraham: Was translated the same way the Book of Mormon was by seer stones. No actual translation of the hyroglifics so another strawman argument.
Jesus Christ was convicted of a state crime and executed. So what Joseph Smith wasn't a good financial administrator. Nothing else was fraud and just another strawman's argument. How you doing scarecrow?
All prophecies have been true. You should actually study the Moon ones and you will find out you are wrong, again. A born loser strawman scarecrow.
Yes, Hebrews did immigrate to the Americas. Just not Jews or of the tribe of Judah. They were of the tribe of Joseph.
LiDar radar has proven you completely wrong. Huge un-excavated cities have been found. Millions of square miles worth.
Yes, they had animals that would be considered horse and elephant like animals. I mean, what would Joseph call them if they at the time were unknown? You really are dense.
Oh, swords like stated have been found all over the world anciently at the same time as in the Book of Mormon. Really, do some real research.
Yep, they grew it.
How do you know they didn't have their skinned changed? It could also mean countenance from spiritually light to dark.
You have nothing. I'd pay attention to the video I posted and Onefour1 posted.

 

[JoeB131]

Okay, you are getting angry, and I don't want to get into an argument with an angry person. I get that this is your faith and something that is important to you, which is why I'm less inclined to get into religious discussions these days. But logic and reason just don't bear these claims out.

The people who were witnesses continued even if excommunicated to not deny their testimonies. Could have been easily persuaded to but never did. They had no vested interest once out of the Church. And, the Church was poor anyways.

Easily persuaded by whom, exactly? Human nature is such that if you were fooled or engaged in unethical activity, you aren't terribly inclined to admit it. Especially since the ones who left tried and failed to start their own religion.

Kinderhook Plates: They were fake. So, they was nothing to translate. He may have attempted to use the seer stones since he knew nothing about translating the symbols and nothing happened or was told by God they were fake. End of strawman story.

Except, no. He claimed that they were the testimony of a descendant of Ham.

Book of Abraham: Was translated the same way the Book of Mormon was by seer stones. No actual translation of the hyroglifics so another strawman argument.

Except they found the original papyri in Chicago, and people who knew how to read them determined they were not the story he made up to match the pictures.

Jesus Christ was convicted of a state crime and executed. So what Joseph Smith wasn't a good financial administrator. Nothing else was fraud and just another strawman's argument.

There's a difference between not being a good financial administrator and committing fraud like filling strongboxes with sand and then topping them off with gold coins to convince investors to trade their real money for worthless notes. Now, it should be pointed out that this happened during the Panic of 1837, when all sorts of banks collapsed.

All prophecies have been true. You should actually study the Moon ones and you will find out you are wrong, again.

Are you saying there were people on the moon in Quaker dress?

Yes, Hebrews did immigrate to the Americas. Just not Jews or of the tribe of Judah. They were of the tribe of Joseph.

Wow.. So many things wrong with this one. The first being that Early Iron Age sailing vessels could not make the trans-Atlantic voyage. Especially with the route that is described, which goes through the Red Sea, around the Cape of Good Hope (A treacherous voyage even today) and then across the Atlantic. Without compasses or navigation tools.

LiDar radar has proven you completely wrong. Huge un-excavated cities have been found. Millions of square miles worth.

Do you have a source for this? Why hasn't anyone excavated them? This would be an awesome find if it were true.

Yes, they had animals that would be considered horse and elephant like animals. I mean, what would Joseph call them if they at the time were unknown? You really are dense.

Well, he wouldn't have called them anything; they were translating the writings of various Nephite scribes (supposedly). Now, a horse might be known to them, but an elephant, less likely. (There are no mentions of Elephants in the Bible, because they were unknown to the Hebrews)

The problem is, while there were fossils of horses and pachyderms being found around this time in the nascent field of palentology, what wasn't known was that these animals died out during the Neolithic period.

Yep, they grew it.

How? These grains were unknown in the Americas.

How do you know they didn't have their skinned changed? It could also mean countenance from spiritually light to dark.

Yes, that would make the metaphor less racist, but the claim was that after the Lamanites killed off the Nephites, God cursed them by making them dark skinned, and the ancestors of Native Americans.

 

[Cougarbear]

Okay, you are getting angry, and I don't want to get into an argument with an angry person. I get that this is your faith and something that is important to you, which is why I'm less inclined to get into religious discussions these days. But logic and reason just don't bear these claims out.



Easily persuaded by whom, exactly? Human nature is such that if you were fooled or engaged in unethical activity, you aren't terribly inclined to admit it. Especially since the ones who left tried and failed to start their own religion.



Except, no. He claimed that they were the testimony of a descendant of Ham.



Except they found the original papyri in Chicago, and people who knew how to read them determined they were not the story he made up to match the pictures.



There's a difference between not being a good financial administrator and committing fraud like filling strongboxes with sand and then topping them off with gold coins to convince investors to trade their real money for worthless notes. Now, it should be pointed out that this happened during the Panic of 1837, when all sorts of banks collapsed.



Are you saying there were people on the moon in Quaker dress?



Wow.. So many things wrong with this one. The first being that Early Iron Age sailing vessels could not make the trans-Atlantic voyage. Especially with the route that is described, which goes through the Red Sea, around the Cape of Good Hope (A treacherous voyage even today) and then across the Atlantic. Without compasses or navigation tools.



Do you have a source for this? Why hasn't anyone excavated them? This would be an awesome find if it were true.



Well, he wouldn't have called them anything; they were translating the writings of various Nephite scribes (supposedly). Now, a horse might be known to them, but an elephant, less likely. (There are no mentions of Elephants in the Bible, because they were unknown to the Hebrews)

The problem is, while there were fossils of horses and pachyderms being found around this time in the nascent field of palentology, what wasn't known was that these animals died out during the Neolithic period.


How? These grains were unknown in the Americas.



Yes, that would make the metaphor less racist, but the claim was that after the Lamanites killed off the Nephites, God cursed them by making them dark skinned, and the ancestors of Native Americans.

Again, you are spewing very old attacks that have all been determined to be false. Just take the Kinderhook plates. He made a statement that perhaps they were ancient records. He did not say they definitely were. The fact is, he never came up with a translation. Therefore, he knew at some point it was a fake. Do you have a translation? No. End of story.