Brain357
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Mexicans can own guns as we just determined. You just can't help but lie can you?
The gun control conundrum...but only for gun grabbers, the rest of us know the truth...
- Thread starter 2aguy
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Brain357
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Let’s start with the first claimed example, that of the Soviet Union. Anyone who claims that an armed group of civilians could have stopped Stalin clearly has never opened a history book. First of all, the only reason the Bolsheviks were able to come to power in the first place was that they had access to guns. Armed civilians wouldn’t have solved the problem; they were the cause of it. Stalin, Lenin and the Bolsheviks had a minority of votes and were only able to seize power in a military coup. Second of all, armed citizens did try to stop them; it was called the Russian Civil War and lasted between 1917 and 1922. So to claim that armed civilians could have stopped the Bolsheviks is to be ignorant of the fact that they tried and failed to do so.
Next there is everyone’s favourite internet debate tool, Hitler and the Nazis. An examination of the historical record shows that most of the gun control in Germany came not from the Nazis but from the Versailles Treaty. The Nazis actively campaigned against gun control legislation and supported the 1928 law which weakened gun control. In fact, there is a pattern from 1919 onwards of weakening gun control not strengthening. The best gun control opponents can do is use a quote allegedly from Hitler in 1935 (which is almost certainly fake) or mention the 1938 law. However, the 1938 law actually weakenedgun control and made it easier for everyone except the Jews to own guns. So while the Jews were excluded from gun ownership, by 1938 the Nazis were deeply entrenched in power and it was far too late for the Jews to try to overthrow them.
It is also hard to take seriously the notion that the Jews, who comprised 1% of the German population, could militarily defeat the other 99%. How could a handful of Jews armed with a few pistols defeat the Wehrmacht which conquered Europe? Not even France, which had tanks, could do that. Any armed uprising by the Jews would have played right into the Nazis hands and only hastened their destruction. It should be noted that Jews in the rest of Europe were not disarmed but that did little to save them. Opponents of gun control fail to realise that making guns easily available to Jews would also make them easily available to Nazis and in all likelihood lead to a pogrom. Seeing as the Jews were so outnumbered by their enemies, a guns-for-everyone policy would not have worked in their favour. Remember that the largest armed insurrection in Germany at the time came not from Jews but in the form of Hitler’s 1923 Beer Hall Putsch.
The Genocide And Gun Control Myth
Next there is everyone’s favourite internet debate tool, Hitler and the Nazis. An examination of the historical record shows that most of the gun control in Germany came not from the Nazis but from the Versailles Treaty. The Nazis actively campaigned against gun control legislation and supported the 1928 law which weakened gun control. In fact, there is a pattern from 1919 onwards of weakening gun control not strengthening. The best gun control opponents can do is use a quote allegedly from Hitler in 1935 (which is almost certainly fake) or mention the 1938 law. However, the 1938 law actually weakenedgun control and made it easier for everyone except the Jews to own guns. So while the Jews were excluded from gun ownership, by 1938 the Nazis were deeply entrenched in power and it was far too late for the Jews to try to overthrow them.
It is also hard to take seriously the notion that the Jews, who comprised 1% of the German population, could militarily defeat the other 99%. How could a handful of Jews armed with a few pistols defeat the Wehrmacht which conquered Europe? Not even France, which had tanks, could do that. Any armed uprising by the Jews would have played right into the Nazis hands and only hastened their destruction. It should be noted that Jews in the rest of Europe were not disarmed but that did little to save them. Opponents of gun control fail to realise that making guns easily available to Jews would also make them easily available to Nazis and in all likelihood lead to a pogrom. Seeing as the Jews were so outnumbered by their enemies, a guns-for-everyone policy would not have worked in their favour. Remember that the largest armed insurrection in Germany at the time came not from Jews but in the form of Hitler’s 1923 Beer Hall Putsch.
The Genocide And Gun Control Myth
2aguy
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No they can't twit......the government controls who owns guns and if you don't have connections you aren't getting a gun....what part of there being only one gun store in the whole country and it is run by the military don't you get......moron.
2aguy
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The Russian people did not have guns......not in numbers needed to hold back their government...that is why, twit, that we fight to preserve the 2nd Amendment here...so that we don't end up like them.......
give up your guns today, and genocide, mass murder and ethnic cleansing are more possible and likely in the future.....
And no.....Read Gun Control in the 3rd Reich twit........
What is it with you morons. You keep saying the nazis allowed Jews and their political enemies to have guns.........these poor people registered their hunting rifles and shotguns and turned in their other guns after WW1 when the government mandated it.......the nazis then used the registration records to disarm Jews and their political enemies.....twit.
And Switzerland, with 435,000 civilians with small arms kept the Germans from invading Switzerland.....vast numbers of guns, in the hands of vast numbers of people deter invasion, genocide, mass murder and ethnic cleansing...
And a few pistols was the problem...the Jews gave up their few guns in the 1920s thinking that the police would protect them.........arm hundreds of thousands of civilians in each of the countries invaded by the Germans and they can't hold the territory....
That is why we don't want to give up our guns...in each case you cite the people surrendered their guns long before the murder began...believing people like you who said....what....are you crazy....there is no need for civilians to have guns....
See......we understand history...you anti-gun nuts do not......you see the slaughter of unarmed people and say..see, guns wouldn't have helped....not realizing the whole time the people didn't have guns...and had they had guns history would have been changed...the nazis couldn't have assumed power, because their socialist brown shirts couldn't have beaten their political opposition into silence, as the police stood by.....
Giving up our guns is insane....you people are insane.....you have no sense of history or human behavior....
Brain357
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Link? You sure make up a lot of stuff. It is in their constitution.
Private sales are legal.
2aguy
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The Europeans were disarmed by their governments after the war......the civilians were helpless in the face of German occupation.......you guys have no concept what a heavily armed civilain population means for an invading force.....
The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto held of thousands of Germans using a handful of pistols twit....had all the occupied countries had hundreds of thousands of armed civilians the German war effort would have ground to a halt and collpased.....but no....those people listened to people like you.....why do they need guns...they have never been victims of crime..we have police for that...give up your guns.....and 12 million innocent men, women and children were put in gas chambers and murdered.....
We don't want that to happen here...ever....and the only way to make that for sure is for a heavily armed civilian population that is determined to keep it from happening.....
Mass murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing only happen to people who don't have guns..........
2aguy
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The myth is that vast numbers of armed civilians are easily subdued.......
Alan Steinweis’s bad history
Well, the point of the Uprising wasn’t to save the lives of the participants; they knew that they were almost certain to die to no matter what.
They tied down Nazi forces for over fourth months — whereas the French and Polish armies had been unable to resist the Nazi invaders for even two months.
-------
Aggressive use of the Wiemar and the 1938 statutes was not the only form of Nazi gun control. The first years of the Nazi regime were dedicated toGleichschaltung (“forcing into line”) — to suppress any aspect of civil society which might offer resistance. That is why the Nazis required that every gun club and every hunting club submit to the supervision of a Nazi political officer. Some clubs disbanded rather than comply.
Pointing out that Jews constituted less than one percent of the German population, Professor Steinweis says that “It is preposterous to argue that the possession of firearms would have enabled them to mount resistance against a systematic program of persecution implemented by a modern bureaucracy, enforced by a well-armed police state, and either supported or tolerated by the majority of Germans…Inside Germany, only the army possessed the physical force necessary for defying or overthrowing the Nazis…”
But that is the point!
Using gun licensing and gun registration laws enacted by a democratic government, the Nazis by 1938 had disarmed everyone who was not a certified supporter of the regime.
Once everyone except the pro-Nazis was disarmed, only the German Officer Corps had the ability to overthrow Hitler, and they did not choose to act.
The point of the Second Amendment, as Dr. Carson rightly said, is that obstructing tyranny should not hang on the fragile thread of military good will.
Brain357
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You make up a bunch of gibberish you mean. Your claims are all ridiculous.
2aguy
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And about the Jewish resistance to the nazis...had they had more guns history would have been different...
10 hand guns...and they did this......imagine if they all had rifles and improvised explosives.....and imagine if the rest of the European civilians had the same....
The Warsaw ghetto uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis
On Jan. 18, 1943, the Germans rounded up 7,000 Jews and sent them to the extermination camp at Treblinka; they killed 600 more right in Warsaw. But on that day, an uprising began. In the beginning, the Jewish Fighting Organization had about 600 volunteers; the Jewish Military Association had about 400, and there were thousands more in spontaneous small groups.
The Jews had only 10 handguns, but the Germans did not realize how under-armed the Jewish fighters were.
After four days of fighting, the Germans on January 21 pulled back from the ghetto, to organize better. A diary written in the Warsaw ghetto exulted, “In the four days of fighting we had made up for the shame of Jewish passivity in the first extermination action of July, 1942.” [Ber Mark, “The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising,” in “They Fought Back" ed., Yuri Suhl (N.Y.: Paperback Library, 1968; 1st pub. 1967), pp. 104-06].
Not only the Germans were shocked by the unexpected resistance, but also the Jews were astonished. They could not imagine until then that the beaten, exhausted victims could rise against a mighty enemy who had conquered Europe. Many Jews who were in the streets of Warsaw during the fighting refused to believe that on Zamenhof and Mila streets Jewish boys and girls had attacked Germans. The large-scale fighting which followed convinced all that it was possible.
------
In February 1943, the Polish Home Army transferred 50 revolvers (many of them defective), 50 hand grenades, and four pounds of explosives to the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. The Warsaw Jews also manufactured their own explosives, including Molotov cocktails. But, wrote Ringelblum, as in Biblical days, “their most potent weapon was their deep sense of national pride and responsibility.”
10 hand guns...and they did this......imagine if they all had rifles and improvised explosives.....and imagine if the rest of the European civilians had the same....
The Warsaw ghetto uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis
On Jan. 18, 1943, the Germans rounded up 7,000 Jews and sent them to the extermination camp at Treblinka; they killed 600 more right in Warsaw. But on that day, an uprising began. In the beginning, the Jewish Fighting Organization had about 600 volunteers; the Jewish Military Association had about 400, and there were thousands more in spontaneous small groups.
The Jews had only 10 handguns, but the Germans did not realize how under-armed the Jewish fighters were.
After four days of fighting, the Germans on January 21 pulled back from the ghetto, to organize better. A diary written in the Warsaw ghetto exulted, “In the four days of fighting we had made up for the shame of Jewish passivity in the first extermination action of July, 1942.” [Ber Mark, “The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising,” in “They Fought Back" ed., Yuri Suhl (N.Y.: Paperback Library, 1968; 1st pub. 1967), pp. 104-06].
Not only the Germans were shocked by the unexpected resistance, but also the Jews were astonished. They could not imagine until then that the beaten, exhausted victims could rise against a mighty enemy who had conquered Europe. Many Jews who were in the streets of Warsaw during the fighting refused to believe that on Zamenhof and Mila streets Jewish boys and girls had attacked Germans. The large-scale fighting which followed convinced all that it was possible.
------
In February 1943, the Polish Home Army transferred 50 revolvers (many of them defective), 50 hand grenades, and four pounds of explosives to the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. The Warsaw Jews also manufactured their own explosives, including Molotov cocktails. But, wrote Ringelblum, as in Biblical days, “their most potent weapon was their deep sense of national pride and responsibility.”
2aguy
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And this is what happens when there are guns and people willing to fight...had they had more guns....history would have been different...
The Nazis brought in tanks. The Jews were ready with explosives. First one tank and then a second were immobilized in the middle of the street, in flames, their crews burned alive. Ringelblum recalled:
Now the fighters as well as the non-combatant Jews who have crawled out of their hiding places have reached the pinnacle of jubilation. … According to one eyewitness account, “The faces who only yesterday reflected terror and despair now shone with an unusual joy which is difficult to describe. This was a joy free from all personal motives, a joy imbued with the pride that that ghetto was fighting.”
Another eyewitness described the confusion in the German ranks: “There runs a German soldier shrieking like an insane one, the helmet on his head on fire. Another one shouts madly ‘Juden…Waffen…Juden… Waffen!'” [“Jews…weapons!"]
Eventually, the Jewish forces began to run out of ammunition.
The Warsaw Jews, like the Jews throughout Europe, were unable to produce their own ammunition.
There was little “gun culture” among European Jews of the 1930s, so few Jews had the equipment for “reloading” — the home manufacture of ammunition. In contrast, hundreds of thousands of American families own the machine tools used for reloading; home manufacture of ammunition is legal everywhere in the United States.
The Nazis brought in tanks. The Jews were ready with explosives. First one tank and then a second were immobilized in the middle of the street, in flames, their crews burned alive. Ringelblum recalled:
Now the fighters as well as the non-combatant Jews who have crawled out of their hiding places have reached the pinnacle of jubilation. … According to one eyewitness account, “The faces who only yesterday reflected terror and despair now shone with an unusual joy which is difficult to describe. This was a joy free from all personal motives, a joy imbued with the pride that that ghetto was fighting.”
Another eyewitness described the confusion in the German ranks: “There runs a German soldier shrieking like an insane one, the helmet on his head on fire. Another one shouts madly ‘Juden…Waffen…Juden… Waffen!'” [“Jews…weapons!"]
Eventually, the Jewish forces began to run out of ammunition.
The Warsaw Jews, like the Jews throughout Europe, were unable to produce their own ammunition.
There was little “gun culture” among European Jews of the 1930s, so few Jews had the equipment for “reloading” — the home manufacture of ammunition. In contrast, hundreds of thousands of American families own the machine tools used for reloading; home manufacture of ammunition is legal everywhere in the United States.
Dale Smith
Platinum Member
How can you prevent crime by passing acts, statutes and codes which are all designed to bring in revenue for this massive corporate entity? Currently there are over 800,000 of these on the books and they pass more every year. 80 percent of the people in prison are there for committing a victim less crime. They hired more police (not Peace Officers) which does help if they are constantly patrolling but they get there after the crime with a REAL victim has been committed. When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. You have the DHS buying up billions of rounds of ammo, mostly hollow point and purchasing thousands of semi-automatic weapons, we have a totally open border whose drug cartel members can come across no dount armed with guns supplied to them by "da gubermint"...we have alleged sleeper cells of muslim extremists all over the country according to the F.B.I while this admin keeps flying in muslim refugees without any proper vetting......but yet we have liberals that claim that we don't need to be able to protect ourselves and if they had their way, they would totally disarm the American people.
BTW, disarming Americans is one of last planks of the communist manifesto left to be accomplished...thus the rash of these fake mass shootings that are passed off as real time events. Sandy Hook was a perfect example of that.
2aguy
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A look at the book...
Gun Control in the 3rd Reich....
Gun Control in Nazi Germany
There is no shortage of theories or writings related to the rise of the Third Reich and the subsequent Holocaust. Stephen Halbrook’s 2013 book, Gun Control in the Third Reich offers a compelling and important account of the role of gun prohibition in aiding Hitler’s goals of exterminating the Jews and other “enemies of the state.”
n Part I of the book, a chaotic post-WWI Germany is the backdrop, a time when there were no established policies or laws pertaining to firearm ownership.
Concern about firearms not being turned in after the war and conflict between extremist groups and the government led to the implementation of gun control laws.
However, well-meaning clauses in the laws were subsequently used to provide the government with complete control over gun ownership, creating registries of gun and ammunition ownership, which ultimately fell into the hands of the Nazis.
These lists were methodically used to disarm citizens. Through the first three chapters of the book, Halbrook does a masterful job of detailing the ever-changing gun control policies, ranging from the most extreme (execution on the spot) to the postured ‘relaxation’ of gun control laws that allowed possession of very expensive long arms that would not be affordable for the majority of the population.
Part II of the book opens with the naming of Hitler as chancellor of Germany at the end of January 1933, and the immediate utilization of the Weimar gun control policies to begin the Nazi campaign to seize arms and eradicate the so-called “enemies of the state” (all of whom were tagged as Communists). As a result, less than a month later, Hitler and Göring convinced President Hindenburg that an emergency decree was needed, which ultimately gave the Nazis the ability to eliminate constitutional assurances of liberty and free speech, a free press, the ability to assemble, and the right to privacy in personal communications.
Furthermore, search and seizure of homes was authorized. This carte blanche for search and seizure essentially became the modus operandi of the Third Reich.
By the end of March, Hitler had succeeded in passing the “Enabling Law” which gave him the ability to create laws as he wished, with no requirement for consultation.
Following this, the confiscation of weapons escalate
-----
In the concluding section of the book,Reichskristallnacht (Night of the Broken Glass) is detailed. Jews had been systematically disarmed, and their identity and locations were now on file with local police.
It was simply a matter of time before the full shift into deportation and extermination of the Jews would begin. Records support that a campaign to arrest legally registered Jewish owners of firearms was now underway, along with the push by the Nazis to pressure Jews to flee Germany.
The complete confiscation of weapons held by Jews at this point was sparked by the November 7, 1938 assassination attempt of a German diplomat, supposedly by a Polish-Jewish teenager at the embassy in Paris. The Night of the Broken Glass came in the following few days.
All Jewish weapons (including such things as letter openers) were confiscated, and all Jewish organizations were deemed illegal. With the Jews disarmed, Hitler’s plans could proceed with a defenseless populace.
The majority of the non-Jewish German population was stunned by what had transpired but too afraid to protest. Isolated cases of resistance remained, such as the now well-known case of Oskar Schindler. When deportations commenced in October 1941, the possessions of the Jews were searched by the Gestapo for anything of value, and completed the disarming of the Jews. The dangers of silent witness are now well known.
Gun Control in the 3rd Reich....
Gun Control in Nazi Germany
There is no shortage of theories or writings related to the rise of the Third Reich and the subsequent Holocaust. Stephen Halbrook’s 2013 book, Gun Control in the Third Reich offers a compelling and important account of the role of gun prohibition in aiding Hitler’s goals of exterminating the Jews and other “enemies of the state.”
n Part I of the book, a chaotic post-WWI Germany is the backdrop, a time when there were no established policies or laws pertaining to firearm ownership.
Concern about firearms not being turned in after the war and conflict between extremist groups and the government led to the implementation of gun control laws.
However, well-meaning clauses in the laws were subsequently used to provide the government with complete control over gun ownership, creating registries of gun and ammunition ownership, which ultimately fell into the hands of the Nazis.
These lists were methodically used to disarm citizens. Through the first three chapters of the book, Halbrook does a masterful job of detailing the ever-changing gun control policies, ranging from the most extreme (execution on the spot) to the postured ‘relaxation’ of gun control laws that allowed possession of very expensive long arms that would not be affordable for the majority of the population.
Part II of the book opens with the naming of Hitler as chancellor of Germany at the end of January 1933, and the immediate utilization of the Weimar gun control policies to begin the Nazi campaign to seize arms and eradicate the so-called “enemies of the state” (all of whom were tagged as Communists). As a result, less than a month later, Hitler and Göring convinced President Hindenburg that an emergency decree was needed, which ultimately gave the Nazis the ability to eliminate constitutional assurances of liberty and free speech, a free press, the ability to assemble, and the right to privacy in personal communications.
Furthermore, search and seizure of homes was authorized. This carte blanche for search and seizure essentially became the modus operandi of the Third Reich.
By the end of March, Hitler had succeeded in passing the “Enabling Law” which gave him the ability to create laws as he wished, with no requirement for consultation.
Following this, the confiscation of weapons escalate
-----
In the concluding section of the book,Reichskristallnacht (Night of the Broken Glass) is detailed. Jews had been systematically disarmed, and their identity and locations were now on file with local police.
It was simply a matter of time before the full shift into deportation and extermination of the Jews would begin. Records support that a campaign to arrest legally registered Jewish owners of firearms was now underway, along with the push by the Nazis to pressure Jews to flee Germany.
The complete confiscation of weapons held by Jews at this point was sparked by the November 7, 1938 assassination attempt of a German diplomat, supposedly by a Polish-Jewish teenager at the embassy in Paris. The Night of the Broken Glass came in the following few days.
All Jewish weapons (including such things as letter openers) were confiscated, and all Jewish organizations were deemed illegal. With the Jews disarmed, Hitler’s plans could proceed with a defenseless populace.
The majority of the non-Jewish German population was stunned by what had transpired but too afraid to protest. Isolated cases of resistance remained, such as the now well-known case of Oskar Schindler. When deportations commenced in October 1941, the possessions of the Jews were searched by the Gestapo for anything of value, and completed the disarming of the Jews. The dangers of silent witness are now well known.
2aguy
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Just like Mexico.....New Yorkers can own guns.......except they can't...
John Stossel discovers New York values are disgustingly anti-Second Amendment - Hot Air
So, who gets permits? It’s the wealthy and the politically connected. Stossel noted that Howard Stern, Donald Trump, and Robert De Niro all have carry permits, but for ordinary people, even veterans, like Mr. Martinez, they couldn’t be trusted for some reason.
John Stossel discovers New York values are disgustingly anti-Second Amendment - Hot Air
So, who gets permits? It’s the wealthy and the politically connected. Stossel noted that Howard Stern, Donald Trump, and Robert De Niro all have carry permits, but for ordinary people, even veterans, like Mr. Martinez, they couldn’t be trusted for some reason.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
When you chickenhawks go over there to fight the monsters, I'll take your smack talking seriously. The reason we aer pulling out is because they LIED to us about what we were there for to start with.
Well, it fhe US didn't smuggle a quarter million guns into mexico every year, maybe they wouldn't have such a problem.
2aguy
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And more about how needy the communists were for capitalist tanks and other equipment...
Lend-Lease tanks and aircrafts for Russia 1941-1945
Lend-Lease tanks and aircrafts for Russia 1941-1945
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Uh, no, it wouldn't have. The uprising in Warsaw failed epically. They killed all of 19 Germans. 13,000 Jews and Poles died, and 56,000 were deported to concentration camps, where they were exterminated.
And if they waited a couple more weeks, the Russians would have liberated them, no fuss.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Yawn... John Wayne lied to you Buddy.
2aguy
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Again with the lie about American guns in Mexico...if you are going to believe every lie the gun grabbers tell you what use are you in a real discussion...
Mexico’s Gun Control Laws: A Model for the United States? by David B. Kopel :: SSRN
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