The Fundamental Limitations of Renewable Energy

[elektra]

Given that we are burning thru our fossil fuels at a rate that is exponentially greater than those fuels are being created, we will eventually be forced to change to another source for our energy needs.

If we wait until the fossil fuels are exhausted we will be screwed.

No shit? Really? Wow? So, we are running out? I mean you are contributing to the thread, but where are you standing, what are you proposing, who or what are you supporting.

There is no substitute for Fossil Fuels and its proven that Green Energy increases the depletion of fossil fuels, so what exactly are you stating, given there is no alternative and this far your ideology only results in greater depletion of fossil fuels.

 

[gallantwarrior]

I don't care what the limitations are for the rest of you. It has been working for me. That's all that matters.

BTW we are still waiting for you to show us pics of your electric car and solar setup Matt.

On what scale? It works for me, too, but I am one small cabin, one small dairy (12 goats).

 

[gallantwarrior]

Geothermal holds the key to evening out the rest of the renewables. 24-7, and much more controllable than coal.

Not available at all locations.

 

[Politico]

I don't care what the limitations are for the rest of you. It has been working for me. That's all that matters.

BTW we are still waiting for you to show us pics of your electric car and solar setup Matt.

On what scale? It works for me, too, but I am one small cabin, one small dairy (12 goats).

On my scale. As I have said many times I could care less about what happens to a bunch of people 100 years from now. I use if because it saves me money. That is why I call out treehuggers like Matt. They claim to care about these things. But they don't actually use any of the alternatives. They just tell everyone else to. And when you challenge them they run away. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

 

[FA_Q2]

(a) Although it is true that fossil fuels are being consumed at a greater rate than ever, they are actually being FOUND at a greater rate than they are being consumed. For example, the U.S. oil reserves are greater now than they were last year, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. Our known natural gas reserves are, for all intents and purposes, infinite and still growing. Nobody alive today will ever have to concern herself about whether there will be enough carbon left to burn to light her desk lamp.

(2) There is nothing wrong with the renewables mentioned above, but they will never be able to provide base load, which renders them nothing more than expensive curiosities. You might as well hook up all the treadmills in America's healthclubs to generators. It would do as much good as all the windmills and solar panels we have now.

(iii) Wise use of resources is always good. Conservation is kool. So what?

(D) Nuclear power could easily be rendered "renewable" with known technology. Spent fuel can be re-processed and used again virtually forever (it is not reprocessed for POLITICAL reasons, not technical). More so than with (a) above, none of our grandchildren would ever have to concern themselves about whether there is sufficient uranium to keep the reactors cooking.

Regulatory zealotry and the public's neurotic fear of "radiation" are the main reasons why Nuke is being cast aside. It is incredibly stupid.

This. Nuclear is the only viable option out there and yet the public refuses to accept it.

They really don't want green or we would be running much of the grid on nuclear by now.

 

[elektra]

Geothermal holds the key to evening out the rest of the renewables. 24-7, and much more controllable than coal.

bullshit, prove it.

The Future of Geothermal Energy

so what, do you think your playing cards? a paper by professional students proves nothing.

the renewables pollute, oregon use of coal produced energy has increased since you have started to building windmills and renewables. Why does Oregon need extra Coal Energy from Wyoming, Old Crock. Renewables have failed every place they have been tried.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Denmark went heavy into so called "green energy." Primarily wind turbines placed in the North Sea. Here is what happened.

When the wind does not blow you still need power. To support "green energy," you need back up power plants that are as inexpensive as possible. In most cases this is coal. Denmark reached almost 40% power production with wind.....but greenhouse gases went up.

Why: Because they had to expand coal fired power plants to back up the "green energy." More coal...more greenhouse gases.

Liberals and so-called environmentalists are morons.

 

[mamooth]

Denmark has reduced its greenhouse gas emissions by 14% | ICISCENTER.ORG
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Total greenhouse gas emissions (GHGs) in Denmark have fallen 14% since 1990, and are projected to fall by 23% by 2035
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WelfareQueen, why did you try to pass off such a falsehood? Was it deliberately dishonesty, or were you just a total 'effin moron who parroted whatever bullshit propaganda he got fed?

This why deniers get sucked into all kinds of cults so easily, because they're completely unable to recognize cult bullshit for what it is.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Denmark has reduced its greenhouse gas emissions by 14% | ICISCENTER.ORG
---
Total greenhouse gas emissions (GHGs) in Denmark have fallen 14% since 1990, and are projected to fall by 23% by 2035
---

WelfareQueen, why did you try to pass off such a falsehood? Was it deliberately dishonesty, or were you just a total 'effin moron who parroted whatever bullshit propaganda he got fed?

This why deniers get sucked into all kinds of cults so easily, because they're completely unable to recognize cult bullshit for what it is.

Wrong. Denmark started going heavily into wind in the 1970's. For years their carbon emissions actually went up due to back up coal fired power plants. Only recently have they started to go down because they switched from coal to nat gas. There is also the economic issue.


Criticism of Danish wind economics

In 2009, the Institute for Energy Research commissioned the Danish think-tank CEPOS (Centre for Political Studies) to report on electricity exports from Denmark and the economic impact of the Danish wind industry. This report[34] states that Danes pay the highest residential electricity rates in the European Union (partly to subsidize wind power), and that the cost of saving a ton of carbon dioxide between 2001 and 2008 has averaged 647 DKK (€ 87, US$ 124). It also estimated that 90% of wind industry jobs were transferred from other technology industries, and states that as a result Danish GDP is 1.8 billion DKK (US$ 270 million) lower than it would have been without wind industry subsidies.[36]

 

[flacaltenn]

Geothermal is the godfather of fracking.

Really? How so?

Thats a really hard sell when the Enviro-nuts realize what they have been pushing. Major Enviro associations oppose it.. It's NOT renewable, since the wells peter out from heat loss and corrosion. And the places where it is applicable are severely limited.

Oh please, you can always find someone to oppose something, look at those poor folks with windmill phobia, or high voltage line phobia. NIMBYS exist for all things that exist.

I'm surprised with your fossil background you don't realize that geothermal mining techniques led the way for deep well hydro fracturing.. AND a lot of experience in horizontal drilling as well. LOTS of fluid pushed down into man-made fissures to generate the steam.

Like I said man. I'm ALL FOR IT -- with the same REALITIES and RESTRICTIONS we have on other fracking operations. And for THIS -- the siting issues are even more intense. Since blow-outs at these thermal sites can spew a circle of toxic gases and liquids for a half mile or more radius..

Google Hawaii geothermal blowout --- for instance. Or geothermal "circle of death"..

 

[RGR]

Geothermal is the godfather of fracking.

Really? How so?

I'm surprised with your fossil background you don't realize that geothermal mining techniques led the way for deep well hydro fracturing.. AND a lot of experience in horizontal drilling as well. LOTS of fluid pushed down into man-made fissures to generate the steam.

You got me I guess. I have never seen anyone say that the technology for hydraulic fracturing in 1947 was derived from geothermal based ideas. Or that the horizontal wells first drilled in the late 19th century in Ohio (okay fine, Texas City, 1927 if you want to talk about modern cased hole horizontal drilling) were derived from this stuff either.

You do realize that the wooden casing often used near Macksburg Ohio in the 1880's means that they couldn't handle hot fluids and whatnot very well,so I don't see how knowledge in drilling geothermal wells between then and, say, the Civil War led to this technology.

Like I said man. I'm ALL FOR IT -- with the same REALITIES and RESTRICTIONS we have on other fracking operations. And for THIS -- the siting issues are even more intense. Since blow-outs at these thermal sites can spew a circle of toxic gases and liquids for a half mile or more radius..

Google Hawaii geothermal blowout --- for instance. Or geothermal "circle of death"..

I've spoken with company men who drilled geothermal wells in Hawaii. They thought it was quite a test of their capabilities, but they didn't describe blowouts or dying or anything from these events.

But I am interested in how the geothermal drillers were ahead of the oil and gas drillers.

 

[flacaltenn]

Really? How so?

I'm surprised with your fossil background you don't realize that geothermal mining techniques led the way for deep well hydro fracturing.. AND a lot of experience in horizontal drilling as well. LOTS of fluid pushed down into man-made fissures to generate the steam.

You got me I guess. I have never seen anyone say that the technology for hydraulic fracturing in 1947 was derived from geothermal based ideas. Or that the horizontal wells first drilled in the late 19th century in Ohio (okay fine, Texas City, 1927 if you want to talk about modern cased hole horizontal drilling) were derived from this stuff either.

You do realize that the wooden casing often used near Macksburg Ohio in the 1880's means that they couldn't handle hot fluids and whatnot very well,so I don't see how knowledge in drilling geothermal wells between then and, say, the Civil War led to this technology.

Like I said man. I'm ALL FOR IT -- with the same REALITIES and RESTRICTIONS we have on other fracking operations. And for THIS -- the siting issues are even more intense. Since blow-outs at these thermal sites can spew a circle of toxic gases and liquids for a half mile or more radius..

Google Hawaii geothermal blowout --- for instance. Or geothermal "circle of death"..

I've spoken with company men who drilled geothermal wells in Hawaii. They thought it was quite a test of their capabilities, but they didn't describe blowouts or dying or anything from these events.

But I am interested in how the geothermal drillers were ahead of the oil and gas drillers.

Same crap -- different product...

Puna Geothermal Blowout | Blowout Shuts Geothermal Unit in Hawaii - Los Angeles Times

HONOLULU — Hawaii state officials ordered a geothermal company to halt all drilling Friday after a well blowout spewed toxic gas and routed 75 people from their homes on the island of Hawaii.

Opponents of geothermal drilling near the nation's last remaining tropical rain forest claimed the accident shows Hawaii's volcanic resource may be unmanageable.

OR ---

http://www.ew.govt.nz/ourenvironment/geothermal/energy.htm

Although only a fraction of geothermal energy is currently used, the environmental effects have been dramatic.

Since the 1950s, the number of geysers in the Region has dwindled because of heat and fluid extraction and the effects of overlying land uses. When water extraction prevents pressure from reaching the level necessary to fuel the geysers, they disappear. Likewise, many chloride springs and their associated ecosystems have been lost with the development of the Wairakei Geothermal Power Station.

Use our map to find out more about the state of geothermal features in the Waikato Region. The extraction of heat and fluid also causes land subsidence. For example, a local marae near Ohaaki Geothermal Power Station is sinking and runs the risk of being inundated by the Waikato River, as the ground around and under it subsides.

Effects on other parts of the natural environment are summarised in the table below.

No widespread horizontal drilling or fracking in the US prior to the 80s -- yet the Geothermal frack sites were already there and RE-DRILLING as the columns petered out or fell apart. It IS fracking. That's the point. And it largely PREDATES widespread adoption for shale gas..

 

[Old Rocks]

Geothermal holds the key to evening out the rest of the renewables. 24-7, and much more controllable than coal.

Not available at all locations.

Sheesh. Ever hear of powerlines?

 

[Old Rocks]

Simbol Materials Starts Lithium Production at Salton Sea Site

California’s Simbol Materialsis starting domestic commercial production of the world’s highest-purity lithium carbonate, which is used as an electrolyte for electric vehicle batteries and other energy storage devices, the company announced Sept. 28.

The lithium carbonate produced from the company’s 500-metric ton facility near the Salton Sea in California’s Imperial Valley will outdo other sources of not only lithium, but manganese and zinc, in terms of quality and performance, helping ensure that growth of clean energy and technologies in the US continues. Simbol is preparing to extract manganese and zinc, as well as lithium, from the Salton Sea’s geothermal brines, according to the Pleasanton-based company.

With the start of commercial production at its Salton Sea facility, Simbol joins MolyCorp as the only two commercial producers of rare earths in the US. Assuring a ready, cost-effective supply of lithium and other so-called rare earth minerals is crucial to ramping up production of electric vehicles (EVs). At present, China produces 95% of global rare earth mineral production, and it’s been cutting back on exports, as well as nationalizing the operations of its rare earth mineral producers.

Simbol is making use of what it says is a “breakthrough” technology for extracting lithium, manganese and zinc found in geothermal brines.

Also significantly, its technology can be incorporated into geothermal power plants, making geothermal power an even more attractive and cost-effective source of clean, renewable baseload electrical power

 

[Old Rocks]

Geothermal Part 2: Critical Materials from Hot Brine | PG&E Currents

March 12, 2014
Geothermal Part 2: Critical Materials from Hot Brine
By Jonathan Marshall

Driven by CEO-entrepreneur Elon Musk, high-flying Tesla Motors plans to build the world’s biggest lithium battery factory — with more production capacity than all such battery makers on Earth combined — to power a new generation of electric vehicles.


Electric vehicle makers such as Tesla, which builds cars in its Fremont factory, need lithium for batteries. (Currents Archive Photo.)

Money (about $5 billion) aside, there’s one small problem: where will he get all the lithium he needs? Opinions differ as to whether the fast-growing battery industry will hit a brick wall owing to limited supplies (mostly from Bolivia and Chile) of this silver-white element, or find all the lithium it needs for the next few decades from proven resources.

..........................................................................................................

But if new technological approaches prove successful, the payoff could be huge. In the Salton Sea area alone, consultants to the Imperial Irrigation District have estimated that a single 50 megawatt geothermal plant could generate a quarter billion dollars in mining revenues each year—and $1.5 billion in total mining royalties over the period 2016 to 2045

 

[mamooth]

Wrong. Denmark started going heavily into wind in the 1970's.

More like the 1990s. All aspects of your unsupported story seems to be fictional.

For years their carbon emissions actually went up due to back up coal fired power plants.

So according to you, getting more power from wind causes more coal to be burned. That's bizarro-world logic.

 

[RGR]

No widespread horizontal drilling or fracking in the US prior to the 80s --

Oh now this isn't MY history problem then. There had already been more than 100,000 frac jobs by the mid-50's, and it was already an established completion technique, including for young engineers like myself in the late-70's...come on FCT, geothermal guys invented it for us...I just KNEW that had to be a crock. Oil and gas drillers have been at the forefront of these technology because we do it better than anyone else, and others all copy off of us.

You wild and crazy guy..trying to sneak this past an old directional driller....

yet the Geothermal frack sites were already there and RE-DRILLING as the columns petered out or fell apart. It IS fracking. That's the point. And it largely PREDATES widespread adoption for shale gas..

That isn't what you initially claimed....you said these bozos taught us oil field folks to do our jobs...PLEASE!!!

Shale gas....like that marks the beginning of fracking....get with the problem!

 

[WelfareQueen]

Wrong. Denmark started going heavily into wind in the 1970's.

More like the 1990s. All aspects of your unsupported story seems to be fictional.

For years their carbon emissions actually went up due to back up coal fired power plants.

So according to you, getting more power from wind causes more coal to be burned. That's bizarro-world logic.

What powers the grid when the wind is not blowing? Fairy dust? And of course, you complete ignored the cost data provided which indicates how uneconomic wind power truly is. That's fine...carry on.

 

[mamooth]

What powers the grid when the wind is not blowing?

You just stink at basic logic.

Say X energy is required, and the choices are wind or coal.

No wind power, X energy comes from coal.

With Y wind power, X-Y energy comes from coal.

X-Y is less than X, not more.

And of course, you complete ignored the cost data provided which indicates how uneconomic wind power truly is. That's fine...carry on.

Because, unlike you, I understand what fallacies you're using (cherrypicking and single cause). But it's expected you can't recognize such fallacies. If people can use reason properly, they don't get sucked into the denier cult.

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, for a small nation like Denmark, that can be a problem. For a large one, such as the US, China, Russia, there is always someplace the wind is blowing, and by having many windfarms in differant places, a significant portion of our electrical needs can always be supplied by wind. Wyoming and Oregon have wind seasons almost 180 degrees from each other. We already have the power lines in from Wyoming to Oregon that presently bring coal fired electricity to Oregon. As Wyoming is installing more and more wind farms, that will change to wind generated electricity. Oh yes, why isn't Oregon using it's wind generated electricity in Oregon? Because the utilities in California put up the money to build the wind farms in Oregon.