Zone1 The Four Ways of “Knowing” (From a Christian standpoint)

[buttercup]

Do you ever think about how we know what we know? I’m no expert on philosophy, but one branch of philosophy that is very interesting to me is epistemology, i.e., the study of knowledge - its origin, nature, different types of knowledge, etc.

There are many different ways to acquire knowledge. But instead of posting an exhaustive list, I think all of the ways can be grouped into four broad categories, or “avenues.” These avenues can also be viewed as levels. They often work together, but there is always a primary way in which knowledge first comes to us.

The framework I’m starting from is the idea that human beings are tripartite: body, soul, and spirit. Each part has different functions. This view that man is tripartite was taught by Watchman Nee, who was a 20th century theologian, evangelist and writer, from China. I believe it is scriptural. If you want to see the different functions, here are a couple images:

The last one on this list will probably be controversial…at least to non-believers. But I don’t want this thread to turn into a theism-vs-atheism debate, that’s not what this is about.

With all that said, here are the four basic ways, or levels, to acquire knowledge:

1. Through our body: our senses. This is the most basic way of knowing: seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, and tasting. This is empirical knowledge.
   
   
2. Through our soul: our mind and intellect. We can acquire knowledge through reason or logic. This is rational knowledge.
   
   The soul also includes our emotions, so I believe we can know things through emotional intelligence or empathetic understanding.
   
   
3. Through our spirit: intuition and conscience. This is where it starts to get interesting, in my view. Intuition is a faculty of our spirit. This is knowledge that comes as a sudden insight, as opposed to step-by-step reasoning. This level also includes moral awareness, which comes from our conscience. Our conscience is spiritual, not intellectual. This is spiritual knowledge.
   
   
4. Through God: divine revelation. Finally, the highest way of knowing is when God makes something known to us. This is obviously the most controversial one on this list. But in Christian belief, God can and does reveal truth to us. (1 Cor. 2:10, John 14:26, John 10:27, 2 Timothy 3:16, Romans 8:14-16, Psalm 32:8, etc.) This is revealed knowledge.

I know that not everyone will agree, of course. Even among Christians, there might be some different views on this. But that's OK...I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this topic, whether you agree or disagree. Thanks!

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Not too different from Thomas of Aquina's epistemology.

https://philarchive.org/archive/ANAEAE-2

Generally described as the ‘Christian Aristotle’, Aquinas models a good deal of his philosophy on the philosophic system of this luminary giant. Aquinas wields a convincing realist support for human knowledge, as reason is open to reality, and reality to reason.11 He stresses the experimental foundation of human knowledge, in conceding that the objects of sense experience furnish us with viable knowledge. Aquinas makes mincemeat of the theory of innate knowledge, as put forward by Plato. Man is not endowed with innate ideas at the time of his birth. The human mind, from birth, is basically in potentiality to knowledge, though, gifted with the capability of abstracting and forming ideas.12 At birth, the human mind is a tabula rasa, that is, “a clear tablet in which nothing is written”.13 He, in consequence, criticizes the position of Augustine, who maintains that our “intellectual knowledge cannot be conveyed by the senses”. Aquinas, nevertheless, does not align fully on the plane of Greek empiricism, found in the writings of Democritus, often described under the terms of Hard or Radical Empiricism. These hold that all our knowledge was derived from the mere impression brought about by sensible things, impressions which they allege to be caused by a discharge of images.14 Aquinas, on the other hand, goes off a tangent, as his mentor, Aristotle, gravitating between the two extremes of Empiricism and Rationalism. This is so because though he acknowledges sense experience as the starting point of all human knowing, he does not limit human knowledge simply to sense experience. Hence, Aquinas states pointedly, Aristotle chose the middle wise. For with Plato, he agreed that intellect and sense are different, But he held that the sense has not its proper operation without the cooperation of the body; so that to feel is not an act of the soul alone, but of the composite...Aristotle agreed with Democritus...that the operations of the sensible part are caused by the impressions of the sensible on the sense, not by a discharge...15

 

[buttercup]

Not too different from Thomas of Aquina's epistemology.

https://philarchive.org/archive/ANAEAE-2

Generally described as the ‘Christian Aristotle’, Aquinas models a good deal of his philosophy on the philosophic system of this luminary giant. Aquinas wields a convincing realist support for human knowledge, as reason is open to reality, and reality to reason.11 He stresses the experimental foundation of human knowledge, in conceding that the objects of sense experience furnish us with viable knowledge. Aquinas makes mincemeat of the theory of innate knowledge, as put forward by Plato. Man is not endowed with innate ideas at the time of his birth. The human mind, from birth, is basically in potentiality to knowledge, though, gifted with the capability of abstracting and forming ideas.12 At birth, the human mind is a tabula rasa, that is, “a clear tablet in which nothing is written”.13 He, in consequence, criticizes the position of Augustine, who maintains that our “intellectual knowledge cannot be conveyed by the senses”. Aquinas, nevertheless, does not align fully on the plane of Greek empiricism, found in the writings of Democritus, often described under the terms of Hard or Radical Empiricism. These hold that all our knowledge was derived from the mere impression brought about by sensible things, impressions which they allege to be caused by a discharge of images.14 Aquinas, on the other hand, goes off a tangent, as his mentor, Aristotle, gravitating between the two extremes of Empiricism and Rationalism. This is so because though he acknowledges sense experience as the starting point of all human knowing, he does not limit human knowledge simply to sense experience. Hence, Aquinas states pointedly, Aristotle chose the middle wise. For with Plato, he agreed that intellect and sense are different, But he held that the sense has not its proper operation without the cooperation of the body; so that to feel is not an act of the soul alone, but of the composite...Aristotle agreed with Democritus...that the operations of the sensible part are caused by the impressions of the sensible on the sense, not by a discharge...15

Thanks for that link. I haven't looked into his ideas on this topic, but I am aware that his epistemology is similar, overall. I'll read that PDF, and maybe look at some videos on him too.

 

[Quantrill]

The believer's ability to 'know' is very important. For it parallels our 'faith'.

The unbelieving world knows by its reason and logic and the scientific method of proof. Which is why they always demand proof for what we believe. But the things of God are not given to know to the world by its method. Thus the world mocks our faith because to them we believe something that cannot be proved, cannot be known.

But we who are believers, 'believe' and 'know' the things of Christ and God because we have that added element, the Holy Spirit, in us. That Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, resides in our spirit. (Rom. 8:9) "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

And it is that Spirit that the world does not have. (John 14:16-17) "And I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

The unbeliever will tell us we cannot know, we just believe. But that is not true. I do know. I know because God by His Spirit has opened my eyes and gives light to my spirit and results in my belief and faith. I believe and know. And from there I seek to learn of God through both the written Word, the Bible, and the living Word, Jesus Christ, whose Spirit lives in my spirit.

Quantrill

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Thanks for that link. I haven't looked into his ideas on this topic, but I am aware that his epistemology is similar, overall. I'll read that PDF, and maybe look at some videos on him too.

Aquina's Summa Theologica is a brilliant teaching text. Maybe make some time to read it as well.

 

[buttercup]

The believer's ability to 'know' is very important. For it parallels our 'faith'.

The unbelieving world knows by its reason and logic and the scientific method of proof. Which is why they always demand proof for what we believe. But the things of God are not given to know to the world by its method. Thus the world mocks our faith because to them we believe something that cannot be proved, cannot be known.

But we who are believers, 'believe' and 'know' the things of Christ and God because we have that added element, the Holy Spirit, in us. That Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, resides in our spirit. (Rom. 8:9) "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

And it is that Spirit that the world does not have. (John 14:16-17) "And I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

The unbeliever will tell us we cannot know, we just believe. But that is not true. I do know. I know because God by His Spirit has opened my eyes and gives light to my spirit and results in my belief and faith. I believe and know. And from there I seek to learn of God through both the written Word, the Bible, and the living Word, Jesus Christ, whose Spirit lives in my spirit.

Quantrill

Yes, you're bringing up a very important point. When I put this post together, that was one of the things I had in mind that I was going to talk about eventually... but for the OP I wanted to start with the basics. In regard to what you said, one of the scriptures that came to my mind was 1 Corinthians 2:14. There are certain truths that cannot be understood through human intellect, our physical senses, or any other natural way....they are discerned only through the Spirit. That's why the "natural man" considers those things foolishness, as it says in that 1 Corinthians scripture I mentioned. In other words, trying to understand or believe in God through science or intellect alone would be like trying to see through your nose, or smell through your ears. It just doesn't work that way. Haha.

I have to go now (it's getting very late here) but I'll try to get back to this thread tomorrow. Thanks for your reply. Later, you all.

 

[Quantrill]

Yes, you're bringing up a very important point. When I put this post together, that was one of the things I had in mind that I was going to talk about eventually... but for the OP I wanted to start with the basics. In regard to what you said, one of the scriptures that came to my mind was 1 Corinthians 2:14. There are certain truths that cannot be understood through human intellect, our physical senses, or any other natural way....they are discerned only through the Spirit. That's why the "natural man" considers those things foolishness, as it says in that 1 Corinthians scripture I mentioned.

I have to go now (it's getting very late here) but I'll try to get back to this thread tomorrow. Thanks for your reply. Later, you all.

Sorry to have interrupted the order. Please carry on with your original plan. I have always enjoyed Watchman Nee's books. And would recommend them to any believer. Years ago, when I came back to Christ, I saw one of his books at a Christian book store called, 'The Spiritual Man'. As a new believer, it was quite over my head. So I shelved it. It would be years later that I picked it up again and would gain much from it. But all of his other books were not like that to me. They were very understandable no matter where I was in spiritual growth.

And, as I am sure you know, Nee paid for his faith with his life.

Quantrill

 

[Votto]

Do you ever think about how we know what we know? I’m no expert on philosophy, but one branch of philosophy that is very interesting to me is epistemology, i.e., the study of knowledge - its origin, nature, different types of knowledge, etc.

There are many different ways to acquire knowledge. But instead of posting an exhaustive list, I think all of the ways can be grouped into four broad categories, or “avenues.” These avenues can also be viewed as levels. They often work together, but there is always a primary way in which knowledge first comes to us.

The framework I’m starting from is the idea that human beings are tripartite: body, soul, and spirit. Each part has different functions. This view that man is tripartite was taught by Watchman Nee, who was a 20th century theologian, evangelist and writer, from China. I believe it is scriptural. If you want to see the different functions, here are a couple images:


View attachment 1230258 View attachment 1230260


The last one on this list will probably be controversial…at least to non-believers. But I don’t want this thread to turn into a theism-vs-atheism debate, that’s not what this is about.

With all that said, here are the four basic ways, or levels, to acquire knowledge:

1. Through our body: our senses. This is the most basic way of knowing: seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, and tasting. This is empirical knowledge.
   
   
2. Through our soul: our mind and intellect. We can acquire knowledge through reason or logic. This is rational knowledge.
   
   The soul also includes our emotions, so I believe we can know things through emotional intelligence or empathetic understanding.
   
   
3. Through our spirit: intuition and conscience. This is where it starts to get interesting, in my view. Intuition is a faculty of our spirit. This is knowledge that comes as a sudden insight, as opposed to step-by-step reasoning. This level also includes moral awareness, which comes from our conscience. Our conscience is spiritual, not intellectual. This is spiritual knowledge.
   
   
4. Through God: divine revelation. Finally, the highest way of knowing is when God makes something known to us. This is obviously the most controversial one on this list. But in Christian belief, God can and does reveal truth to us. (1 Cor. 2:10, John 14:26, John 10:27, 2 Timothy 3:16, Romans 8:14-16, Psalm 32:8, etc.) This is revealed knowledge.

I know that not everyone will agree, of course. Even among Christians, there might be some different views on this. But that's OK...I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this topic, whether you agree or disagree. Thanks!

There is a reason that the forbidden fruit was referred to as man's pursuit of knowledge apart from God in Genesis.

Knowledge is not bad, but knowledge without wisdom, wisdom that can only be given to us from God, brings death.

Today, mankind is building their own knowledge base via AI, that is completely apart from God and with no thought of God in the mix at all. Mankind has never lost his lust for such power apart from God.

This can't end well as they continue to construct their god.

 

[Cougarbear]

I see this in two ways: Secular learning and Spiritual learning. Secular learning is basically observational through the physical senses and tests we can do. We then have to reason this information out with logic and reasoning skills. Logic and reasoning skills are sometimes innate and also learned. We are often influenced by our environment we grew up in and currently live in. It's why with the same information, you have liberals and conservatives which can conflict with the Spiritual ways we learn.

With the Christian-Judeo way, we have two influences, the Light of Christ which is our conscience and the influence of the Holy Ghost which testifies of truth and warns us of impending doom. The truth the Holy Ghost testifies mainly is that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, Lord Son of the Father. The light of Christ is simply knowing something is good or something is evil or wrong. For those not baptized or having any knowledge of Christ, or the right knowledge, a reason one can be judged by God on things like Murder or denying the Holy Ghost when the Holy Ghost is present and to the eyes denying Christ.

This is just a simple way of explaining my beliefs and my knowledge with fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and all present doctrines and ordinances of God.

 

[buttercup]

Sorry to have interrupted the order. Please carry on with your original plan. I have always enjoyed Watchman Nee's books. And would recommend them to any believer. Years ago, when I came back to Christ, I saw one of his books at a Christian book store called, 'The Spiritual Man'. As a new believer, it was quite over my head. So I shelved it. It would be years later that I picked it up again and would gain much from it. But all of his other books were not like that to me. They were very understandable no matter where I was in spiritual growth.

And, as I am sure you know, Nee paid for his faith with his life.

Quantrill

It's totally ok! I don't really have a plan, lol, that was just something that I figured would be talked about, whether someone else or I brought it up.

I definitely agree about Watchman Nee. His writings are so interesting and deep. I had a similar experience. Many years ago when I was a baby Christian, I worked at a Christian book store, so I bought a lot of books. I had The Spiritual Man...but I didn't get through the whole thing (it's a huge book and as you said, advanced) and I always wanted to get back to it later. Unfortunately one time when I moved, two boxes of books were left behind, including that book. I think I might've had The Normal Christian Life, too.

Yes, his story is fascinating. He spent many years in a prison in communist China, for his faith, and was tortured by them regularly to renounce Christianity. I heard that he could have been released if he renounced his faith, but he refused to. But his death as a martyr is what greatly grew the underground Christian church in China, so the communists' plan backfired.

Getting back to your point about things of God being spiritually discerned...that's something that I think nonbelievers don't get, but I think it's an important thing to make clear. There are certain things that are beyond science, things that science can't prove, because science only deals with the natural world. Yet there are people who think that science is the only way to determine truth and the only way to acquire knowledge. That's simply not true. Thanks again.

 

[buttercup]

There is a reason that the forbidden fruit was referred to as man's pursuit of knowledge apart from God in Genesis.

View attachment 1230346

Knowledge is not bad, but knowledge without wisdom, wisdom that can only be given to us from God, brings death.

Today, mankind is building their own knowledge base via AI, that is completely apart from God and with no thought of God in the mix at all. Mankind has never lost his lust for such power apart from God.

This can't end well as they continue to construct their god.

Interesting point. I agree, people always think knowledge is a good thing, but knowledge without wisdom is not always a good thing, and can lead to the worst possible consequence. Also, I think there's a scripture that says knowledge "puffs people up" with pride ....and I've seen that not only in nonbelievers, but in some professed believers as well. That's why I think it's so important for believers to always be led by the Spirit when studying the bible or theology...as opposed to looking at everything through an intellectual lens. And I totally agree about AI and where all that is heading! It's kind of scary, actually. Which reminds me, I posted a thread about transhumanism, and what is at the root of it. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[buttercup]

I see this in two ways: Secular learning and Spiritual learning. Secular learning is basically observational through the physical senses and tests we can do. We then have to reason this information out with logic and reasoning skills. Logic and reasoning skills are sometimes innate and also learned. We are often influenced by our environment we grew up in and currently live in. It's why with the same information, you have liberals and conservatives which can conflict with the Spiritual ways we learn.

With the Christian-Judeo way, we have two influences, the Light of Christ which is our conscience and the influence of the Holy Ghost which testifies of truth and warns us of impending doom. The truth the Holy Ghost testifies mainly is that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, Lord Son of the Father. The light of Christ is simply knowing something is good or something is evil or wrong. For those not baptized or having any knowledge of Christ, or the right knowledge, a reason one can be judged by God on things like Murder or denying the Holy Ghost when the Holy Ghost is present and to the eyes denying Christ.

This is just a simple way of explaining my beliefs and my knowledge with fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and all present doctrines and ordinances of God.

Thank you for your thoughts. Since you brought up the conscience....I don't know if we agree on this, but what's interesting is that everyone has a conscience, not just believers. Or at least everyone is created with a conscience. But as the bible says, it is possible to damage it (that could be a good thread in and of itself) to the point where it barely functions anymore. And I agree that the conscience is from God... basically God's law imprinted on our heart. So everyone has God's influence through their conscience whether they realize that or not... but also I think everyone also has intuition. Of course, as you said, the difference is that all believers who are in Christ are sealed with the Spirit. And as the scriptures say, we learn from the Holy Spirit (John 14:26) in addition to a number of other things the Spirit does in our life.

 

[onefour1]

Do you ever think about how we know what we know? I’m no expert on philosophy, but one branch of philosophy that is very interesting to me is epistemology, i.e., the study of knowledge - its origin, nature, different types of knowledge, etc.

There are many different ways to acquire knowledge. But instead of posting an exhaustive list, I think all of the ways can be grouped into four broad categories, or “avenues.” These avenues can also be viewed as levels. They often work together, but there is always a primary way in which knowledge first comes to us.

The framework I’m starting from is the idea that human beings are tripartite: body, soul, and spirit. Each part has different functions. This view that man is tripartite was taught by Watchman Nee, who was a 20th century theologian, evangelist and writer, from China. I believe it is scriptural. If you want to see the different functions, here are a couple images:


View attachment 1230258 View attachment 1230260


The last one on this list will probably be controversial…at least to non-believers. But I don’t want this thread to turn into a theism-vs-atheism debate, that’s not what this is about.

With all that said, here are the four basic ways, or levels, to acquire knowledge:

1. Through our body: our senses. This is the most basic way of knowing: seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, and tasting. This is empirical knowledge.
   
   
2. Through our soul: our mind and intellect. We can acquire knowledge through reason or logic. This is rational knowledge.
   
   The soul also includes our emotions, so I believe we can know things through emotional intelligence or empathetic understanding.
   
   
3. Through our spirit: intuition and conscience. This is where it starts to get interesting, in my view. Intuition is a faculty of our spirit. This is knowledge that comes as a sudden insight, as opposed to step-by-step reasoning. This level also includes moral awareness, which comes from our conscience. Our conscience is spiritual, not intellectual. This is spiritual knowledge.
   
   
4. Through God: divine revelation. Finally, the highest way of knowing is when God makes something known to us. This is obviously the most controversial one on this list. But in Christian belief, God can and does reveal truth to us. (1 Cor. 2:10, John 14:26, John 10:27, 2 Timothy 3:16, Romans 8:14-16, Psalm 32:8, etc.) This is revealed knowledge.

I know that not everyone will agree, of course. Even among Christians, there might be some different views on this. But that's OK...I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this topic, whether you agree or disagree. Thanks!

In LDS thought, our soul is simply the combination of our spirits with our physical bodies. This seems to be implicated in Genesis 2:7

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

After mankind's spirit enters his body, it is then that man becomes a soul. This made more clear in Abraham 5:7:


Abraham 5:7
And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

However, there is a component that LDS believe that is compatible with your concept of the soul and that is mankind's intelligence. We believe there is a part of mankind that has always existed and was never created or made which is known as man's intelligence.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

So basically, we have all eternally existed as intelligences. God took some of those intelligences and through the process of procreation, he and his wife(s) bore spirit children which gave spirit bodies to our intelligences and we became the children of God. We believe that the following Bible verses attest to us being God's literal offspring and his children.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

So I think you are basically correct in ways in which we obtain knowledge. I would list those ways as follows:

1. Through our body
2. Through our intelligence
3. Through our spirit
4. Through God

Since God could not create our intelligence, he could not create us perfect. So we must progress through eternity by gaining knowledge by experience and thoughtful reasoning. Our spirit bodies and our physical bodies give us a range of emotional, physical and spiritual experiences which our intelligence can process and reason over. Also interaction with others gives us knowledge as a group when we hear their reasoning and logic as well as their emotional and varied experiences. Revelation from God is the purest of all intellectual and emotional knowledge and reasoning but we do need to be careful of false revelation or teachings. Having the gift of the Holy Ghost is of utmost importance in gaining truth from God since it is direct revelation to our souls. There is much deceit in the world and in order to overcome it, we need the constant guide of the Holy Ghost in our lives to lead us along the path of truth and righteousness.

 

[buttercup]

In LDS thought, our soul is simply the combination of our spirits with our physical bodies. This seems to be implicated in Genesis 2:7

Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

After mankind's spirit enters his body, it is then that man becomes a soul. This made more clear in Abraham 5:7:


Abraham 5:7
And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

However, there is a component that LDS believe that is compatible with your concept of the soul and that is mankind's intelligence. We believe there is a part of mankind that has always existed and was never created or made which is known as man's intelligence.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

So basically, we have all eternally existed as intelligences. God took some of those intelligences and through the process of procreation, he and his wife(s) bore spirit children which gave spirit bodies to our intelligences and we became the children of God. We believe that the following Bible verses attest to us being God's literal offspring and his children.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

So I think you are basically correct in ways in which we obtain knowledge. I would list those ways as follows:

1. Through our body
2. Through our intelligence
3. Through our spirit
4. Through God

Since God could not create our intelligence, he could not create us perfect. So we must progress through eternity by gaining knowledge by experience and thoughtful reasoning. Our spirit bodies and our physical bodies give us a range of emotional, physical and spiritual experiences which our intelligence can process and reason over. Also interaction with others gives us knowledge as a group when we hear their reasoning and logic as well as their emotional and varied experiences. Revelation from God is the purest of all intellectual and emotional knowledge and reasoning but we do need to be careful of false revelation or teachings. Having the gift of the Holy Ghost is of utmost importance in gaining truth from God since it is direct revelation to our souls. There is much deceit in the world and in order to overcome it, we need the constant guide of the Holy Ghost in our lives to lead us along the path of truth and righteousness.

As I mentioned in the OP, I know that not all believers agree on the nature of man, in regard to the soul and spirit. This is something I want to study more. But as of now, I believe they are two different things, with different functions. Our spirit is the part that connects us to God. Everyone has a spirit, but the difference is, for unbelievers it is not alive yet. It's the Holy Spirit that makes one's spirit come alive, when we are born spiritually. (born again or "born from above")

I agree with your point about having to be careful because there is so much deceit in the world. That's why it's good to remember what 1 John 4:1 about testing the spirits. And I think that deception is getting increasingly worse as we get closer to the last days of this age. Thanks for sharing your view on all this.

I have to get ready to go somewhere right now. But I'll probably be back later, or tonight...if there are more replies. I thought that this topic would get more response, but I guess not everyone is interested in nerdy topics like this, haha.

 

[ding]

Do you ever think about how we know what we know? I’m no expert on philosophy, but one branch of philosophy that is very interesting to me is epistemology, i.e., the study of knowledge - its origin, nature, different types of knowledge, etc.

There are many different ways to acquire knowledge. But instead of posting an exhaustive list, I think all of the ways can be grouped into four broad categories, or “avenues.” These avenues can also be viewed as levels. They often work together, but there is always a primary way in which knowledge first comes to us.

The framework I’m starting from is the idea that human beings are tripartite: body, soul, and spirit. Each part has different functions. This view that man is tripartite was taught by Watchman Nee, who was a 20th century theologian, evangelist and writer, from China. I believe it is scriptural. If you want to see the different functions, here are a couple images:


View attachment 1230258 View attachment 1230260


The last one on this list will probably be controversial…at least to non-believers. But I don’t want this thread to turn into a theism-vs-atheism debate, that’s not what this is about.

With all that said, here are the four basic ways, or levels, to acquire knowledge:

1. Through our body: our senses. This is the most basic way of knowing: seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, and tasting. This is empirical knowledge.
   
   
2. Through our soul: our mind and intellect. We can acquire knowledge through reason or logic. This is rational knowledge.
   
   The soul also includes our emotions, so I believe we can know things through emotional intelligence or empathetic understanding.
   
   
3. Through our spirit: intuition and conscience. This is where it starts to get interesting, in my view. Intuition is a faculty of our spirit. This is knowledge that comes as a sudden insight, as opposed to step-by-step reasoning. This level also includes moral awareness, which comes from our conscience. Our conscience is spiritual, not intellectual. This is spiritual knowledge.
   
   
4. Through God: divine revelation. Finally, the highest way of knowing is when God makes something known to us. This is obviously the most controversial one on this list. But in Christian belief, God can and does reveal truth to us. (1 Cor. 2:10, John 14:26, John 10:27, 2 Timothy 3:16, Romans 8:14-16, Psalm 32:8, etc.) This is revealed knowledge.

I know that not everyone will agree, of course. Even among Christians, there might be some different views on this. But that's OK...I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this topic, whether you agree or disagree. Thanks!

I would lump 3 and 4 together. To me that's the Holy Spirit.

 

[Quantrill]

It's totally ok! I don't really have a plan, lol, that was just something that I figured would be talked about, whether someone else or I brought it up.

I definitely agree about Watchman Nee. His writings are so interesting and deep. I had a similar experience. Many years ago when I was a baby Christian, I worked at a Christian book store, so I bought a lot of books. I had The Spiritual Man...but I didn't get through the whole thing (it's a huge book and as you said, advanced) and I always wanted to get back to it later. Unfortunately one time when I moved, two boxes of books were left behind, including that book. I think I might've had The Normal Christian Life, too.

Yes, his story is fascinating. He spent many years in a prison in communist China, for his faith, and was tortured by them regularly to renounce Christianity. I heard that he could have been released if he renounced his faith, but he refused to. But his death as a martyr is what greatly grew the underground Christian church in China, so the communists' plan backfired.

Getting back to your point about things of God being spiritually discerned...that's something that I think nonbelievers don't get, but I think it's an important thing to make clear. There are certain things that are beyond science, things that science can't prove, because science only deals with the natural world. Yet there are people who think that science is the only way to determine truth and the only way to acquire knowledge. That's simply not true. Thanks again.

Thanks.

Yes, I had, and may still have, the 'Normal Christian Life' by Nee. But I would have to find it. It was a very good book, and off the top of my head it was a brief understanding of the book of Romans. But I am not sure. But whatever it was, it was very helpful to me.

Christian book stores were a Godsend back then. Your work is well appreciated. China is such an anti-Christian nation. God raised up such men as Nee to bring the Gospel to His people in China. And they would pay a price.

Have you read the book, 'The Heavenly Man' by Brother Yun. He was such a man as Nee. It is his biography of being a Christan in China after the time of Nee. If you haven't read it, please do. Warning, it is not for the faint of heart. It is very brutal. At one time when Yun's wife was allowed to see him in prison, she recoiled at the sight and said 'that is not my husband'. But, I recommend it. It shows the price many Christians have had to make.

So true. The world cannot know. But we know. Praise God for opining our eyes.

Quantrill

 

[Cougarbear]

Thank you for your thoughts. Since you brought up the conscience....I don't know if we agree on this, but what's interesting is that everyone has a conscience, not just believers. Or at least everyone is created with a conscience. But as the bible says, it is possible to damage it (that could be a good thread in and of itself) to the point where it barely functions anymore. And I agree that the conscience is from God... basically God's law imprinted on our heart. So everyone has God's influence through their conscience whether they realize that or not... but also I think everyone also has intuition. Of course, as you said, the difference is that all believers who are in Christ are sealed with the Spirit. And as the scriptures say, we learn from the Holy Spirit (John 14:26) in addition to a number of other things the Spirit does in our life.

Yes, the light can be hidden. Either a direct way that we are responsible for. Or, something wrong with the body such as a sociopath or psychopath. They cannot feel. They rely solely on their intelligence and hopefully they come to peaceful logical conclusions to be a good citizen. I think about 10% do not. But not all of them end up committing terrible crimes.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

As I mentioned in the OP, I know that not all believers agree on the nature of man, in regard to the soul and spirit. This is something I want to study more. But as of now, I believe they are two different things, with different functions. Our spirit is the part that connects us to God. Everyone has a spirit, but the difference is, for unbelievers it is not alive yet. It's the Holy Spirit that makes one's spirit come alive, when we are born spiritually. (born again or "born from above")

I agree with your point about having to be careful because there is so much deceit in the world. That's why it's good to remember what 1 John 4:1 about testing the spirits. And I think that deception is getting increasingly worse as we get closer to the last days of this age. Thanks for sharing your view on all this.

I have to get ready to go somewhere right now. But I'll probably be back later, or tonight...if there are more replies. I thought that this topic would get more response, but I guess not everyone is interested in nerdy topics like this, haha.

I agree with your take on this, but I do consider what others may believe on the topic

 

[BreezeWood]

Knowledge is not bad, but knowledge without wisdom, wisdom that can only be given to us from God, brings death.

the desert religions are a perfect example of thought, not knowledge without wisdom that brings death.

knowledge precludes those religions for a true heavenly wisdom to evolve.