The FBI lied about armed civilians stopping active shooters.

[Batcat]

Yeah, that really doesn't work.

There are 70,000 gun injuries each year, and very few of those are involved in DGU's, either.

Looking at your three anecdotes, only one of those seems like it was absolutely a crime.

the other one sounds like your uncle threatened a guy who just helped him change a flat tire, and the first one could have just been firing at some fool who surprised her.

You hear enough stories about people who shoot their neighbors or family members because they "thought" they were burglars.

Florida man accidentally shoots, kills son-in-law who was trying to surprise him for his birthday: Sheriff

The father-in-law will not be charged, said the sheriff.

abcnews.go.com

Father accidentally shoots son in Oklahoma City, officials say

A father accidentally shot his son in Oklahoma City, according to police.

www.koco.com

You have your opinion which is biased against owning firearms for self defense and I have mine.

My mother did not know the man who jumped her and she lived in a small rural town in Pennsylvania. He was laying in wait knowing she got off a bus from work and she walked a good distance to her home. At the time she was in her early 20s and a very attractive woman.

My uncle said the man had a threatening attitude And if he had not been armed would have attacked my uncle, beat him up and robbed both my uncle‘s wife and his mother. I am not sure when this happened but he told me of the incident before cell phones were common.

The fact still remains that the FBI was taking about homicides. You do not have to kill someone to have a successful use of a firearm for self defense. Your figure of 70,000 gun injuries per year would not only include the defensive use of firearms but also the injuries that occur when inner city gangs have shootouts plus accidental injuries involving gun owners.

 

[JoeB131]

Mother Earth and the DOJ (who has more access to data than anyone else) both put the numbers on the high side. The DOJ numbers from way back in 1997 was 1,500,000 defensive gun uses that year.

Mother Earth?

Every single survey shows much higher results than you claim. Why is it so hard to admit that you are wrong? On thread after thread, you twist and turn and distort things rather than just admit that you are wrong about something, anything at all. Are you really that insecure?

Because they are utterly bullshit numbers, you'd have to believe there are four times more DGU's than gun crimes. You'd have to believe that 99.998% of gun owners have the self-control NOT to shoot in a stressful situation and that 99.998% of people desperate/drugged out enough to commit a crime are deterred by the mere sight of a gun.

The smallest one that I’ve seen is fifty thousand.

And that one sounds ALMOST reasonable. But given that we have 43,000 gun deaths, 70,000 gun injuries, and 400,000 gun crimes a year, is that really worth the trade-off? Particularly since the availability of guns is a major driver of crime in this country that other G-7 countries don't have.

 

[JoeB131]

You have your opinion which is biased against owning firearms for self defense and I have mine.

My mother did not know the man who jumped her and she lived in a small rural town in Pennsylvania. He was laying in wait knowing she got off a bus from work and she walked a good distance to her home. At the time she was in her early 20s and a very attractive woman.

If it was a small rural town, everyone knew everyone. I really can't evaluate a supposed situation that happened a hundred years ago based on anecdotal evidence.

My uncle said the man had a threatening attitude And if he had not been armed would have attacked my uncle, beat him up and robbed both my uncle‘s wife and his mother. I am not sure when this happened but he told me of the incident before cell phones were common.

If he was out to rob your Uncle, why would he stop to help him fix the tire? This has to be the nicest robber ever. Also why would he commit a crime and leave three witnesses who got a pretty good look at him?

The fact still remains that the FBI was taking about homicides. You do not have to kill someone to have a successful use of a firearm for self defense. Your figure of 70,000 gun injuries per year would not only include the defensive use of firearms but also the injuries that occur when inner city gangs have shootouts plus accidental injuries involving gun owners.

And people who shoot each other during arguments about the dog shitting on the lawn, and the husband who is upset about the wife burning the pot roast, and all the other stupid scenarios that happen because we let people own guns who haven't got the training or mental stability to have them.

 

[2aguy]

If it was a small rural town, everyone knew everyone. I really can't evaluate a supposed situation that happened a hundred years ago based on anecdotal evidence.



If he was out to rob your Uncle, why would he stop to help him fix the tire? This has to be the nicest robber ever. Also why would he commit a crime and leave three witnesses who got a pretty good look at him?



And people who shoot each other during arguments about the dog shitting on the lawn, and the husband who is upset about the wife burning the pot roast, and all the other stupid scenarios that happen because we let people own guns who haven't got the training or mental stability to have them.

No....the people doing almost all of the gun murder in this country are criminals murdering other criminals....or hitting the friends and family of the criminals they are trying to murder. Normal people with guns are not the ones causing the mayhem....the criminals with long histories of crime and violence....the criminals the democrat party keeps releasing from jail and prison, are the ones committing 99% of the gun murder.......and they do it so they can push gun control.

 

[2aguy]

Mother Earth?



Because they are utterly bullshit numbers, you'd have to believe there are four times more DGU's than gun crimes. You'd have to believe that 99.998% of gun owners have the self-control NOT to shoot in a stressful situation and that 99.998% of people desperate/drugged out enough to commit a crime are deterred by the mere sight of a gun.



And that one sounds ALMOST reasonable. But given that we have 43,000 gun deaths, 70,000 gun injuries, and 400,000 gun crimes a year, is that really worth the trade-off? Particularly since the availability of guns is a major driver of crime in this country that other G-7 countries don't have.

Again...the actual research by trained professionals...vs. you....and most of those researchers are anti-gun.

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

Clinton's study by the DOJ....

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Applying those restrictions leaves 19 NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of the sample), representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7. While the NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.



n the third column of Table 6.2, we apply the Kleck and Gertz (1995) criteria for "genuine" DGUs (type A), leaving us with just 19 respondents. They represent 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known Kleck and Gertz estimate of 2.5 million, shown in the last

While ours is smaller, it is staistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. to the when we include the multiple DGUs victim. defensive reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 milli

While ours is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference petrator; in most cases (69 percent), the is due to sampling error. Note that when we include the multiple DGUs reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 million DGUs.
----

As shown in Table 6.6, the defender fired his or her gun in 27 percent of these incidents (combined "fire warning shots" and "fire at perpetrator" percentages, though some respondents reported firing both warning shots and airning at the perpetrator). Forty percent of these were "warning shots," and about a third were aimed at the perpetrator but missed. The perpetrator was wounded by the crime victim in eight percent of all DGUs. In nine percent of DGUs the victim captured and held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police could arrive.

Obama's study...

Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2013. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press.

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press

 

[JoeB131]

No....the people doing almost all of the gun murder in this country are criminals murdering other criminals....or hitting the friends and family of the criminals they are trying to murder. Normal people with guns are not the ones causing the mayhem....the criminals with long histories of crime and violence....the criminals the democrat party keeps releasing from jail and prison, are the ones committing 99% of the gun murder.......and they do it so they can push gun control.

Except the National Youth Gang survey only puts gang-related murders at 13% of the murder total.

National Youth Gang Survey Analysis: Measuring the Extent of Gang Problems

The NGC conducted an annual survey of law enforcement agencies to assess the extent of gang problems. This page shows data measuring the extent of gang problems.

nationalgangcenter.ojp.gov

• The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2007 to 2012. During roughly the same time period (2007 to 2011), the FBI estimated, on average, more than 15,500 homicides across the United States (www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1). These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 13 percent of all homicides annually.

Again...the actual research by trained professionals...vs. you....and most of those researchers are anti-gun.

Again, only 200 dead bodies from DGU's... they are rare.
Anything less than a dead crook on the floor doesn't count.

 

[2aguy]

Except the National Youth Gang survey only puts gang-related murders at 13% of the murder total.

National Youth Gang Survey Analysis: Measuring the Extent of Gang Problems

The NGC conducted an annual survey of law enforcement agencies to assess the extent of gang problems. This page shows data measuring the extent of gang problems.

nationalgangcenter.ojp.gov

• The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2007 to 2012. During roughly the same time period (2007 to 2011), the FBI estimated, on average, more than 15,500 homicides across the United States (www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1). These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 13 percent of all homicides annually.

Again, only 200 dead bodies from DGU's... they are rare.
Anything less than a dead crook on the floor doesn't count.

And you have been told this before....

Gangs and Violence​

Armstrong: Let’s turn to questions of where crime is coming from in our country. How much violent crime takes place in the subset of the population we would typically associate with the gang culture?
Kleck: In places like Chicago or Los Angeles, it’s a huge fraction of it. It varies enormously from place to place. It may well be that half or more of the gun homicides in those cities are gang related. But in most places in America, it’s a somewhat more modest fraction.

We don’t have national figures that are of any use. For what it’s worth, in the FBI uniform crime reports data, they do have a category for the circumstance in which the crime was committed. One possible box that local police can check in filling out the homicide reports for the FBI could indeed be for gang-related. But the problem is that the FBI forms require police to check just one circumstance. So if a guy belongs to a gang, and he was selling drugs, and he has a dispute with his customer over the price, and then they get into an argument and one shoots the other, that could go into any of three or four different categories, only one of which is gang-related. So those data are useless.

What we’re stuck with are local estimates, and, as I say, it varies enormously from one locality to another. It’s a huge percentage in a couple of cities. Chicago and Los Angeles have really bad street-gang problems. On the other hand, in Peoria it’s probably a relatively small fraction, certainly well under half.

Criminologist Gary Kleck on Guns, Crime, and Their Study - Ari Armstrong

 

[2aguy]

Except the National Youth Gang survey only puts gang-related murders at 13% of the murder total.

National Youth Gang Survey Analysis: Measuring the Extent of Gang Problems

The NGC conducted an annual survey of law enforcement agencies to assess the extent of gang problems. This page shows data measuring the extent of gang problems.

nationalgangcenter.ojp.gov

• The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2007 to 2012. During roughly the same time period (2007 to 2011), the FBI estimated, on average, more than 15,500 homicides across the United States (www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1). These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 13 percent of all homicides annually.

Again, only 200 dead bodies from DGU's... they are rare.
Anything less than a dead crook on the floor doesn't count.

Idiot.....criminals facing a victim with a gun run away, surrender, or get shot....most of the time they don't die........and only 200 some odd criminals are really stupid and continue to attack armed victims.....

 

[2aguy]

Except they don't say the same thing. The numbers in "estimated" DGU's fluctuate wildly, with characters like Lott and Kleck estimating in the millions while people more connected with planet Earth put them at the tens of thousands.

Those are pretty wide gaps in estimates...

Lott didn't do that study, you dumb ass.....and Kleck is just one of 19 studies.......the CDC, and the Department of Justice also did the research ...you dumb ass.

 

[2aguy]

Mother Earth and the DOJ (who has more access to data than anyone else) both put the numbers on the high side. The DOJ numbers from way back in 1997 was 1,500,000 defensive gun uses that year.

Every single survey shows much higher results than you claim. Why is it so hard to admit that you are wrong? On thread after thread, you twist and turn and distort things rather than just admit that you are wrong about something, anything at all. Are you really that insecure?

Why is it so hard to admit that you are wrong?

Ooooooh........Ooooooh....pick me....pick me.....!!!

Because he is a lying asshat....who hates people and wants to ban and confiscate guns because then the democrats and their brown shirts....blm and antifa....can beat, and kill anyone who stands up to them....which is why he really hates Kyle Rittenhouse.....

 

[JoeB131]

And you have been told this before....

And I ignored it then because it was Kleck, a whore for the Gun Lobby.

he CDC, and the Department of Justice also did the research

The CDC is BANNED from doing meaningful gun research after the gun lobby had a meltdown over Kellerman.

Dickey Amendment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Because he is a lying asshat....who hates people and wants to ban and confiscate guns because then the democrats and their brown shirts....blm and antifa....can beat, and kill anyone who stands up to them....which is why he really hates Kyle Rittenhouse.....

Except people with guns didn't stop the BLM riots, did they?
Rittenhouse murdered two people in the middle of the street and got away with it because the best lawyer in Kenosha is probably still the worst lawyer in the country.

 

[2aguy]

And I ignored it then because it was Kleck, a whore for the Gun Lobby.




The CDC is BANNED from doing meaningful gun research after the gun lobby had a meltdown over Kellerman.

Dickey Amendment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Except people with guns didn't stop the BLM riots, did they?
Rittenhouse murdered two people in the middle of the street and got away with it because the best lawyer in Kenosha is probably still the worst lawyer in the country.

Kleck was an anti-gun researcher at the time he did his work, you dumb ass....

The CDC is not banned from doing gun research, that is a lie.

Rittenhouse stopped the 4 antifa brown shirts who attacked him....had more, normal people had guns, their cities wouldn't have burned.....

Rittenhouse killed a pedophile rapist, and shot two others who violently attacked him.....you always protect the pedophiles....

 

[Captain Caveman]

According to FBI statistics, only 200 gun homicides are ruled as "Justified" by civilians. (We'll leave the ones by cops to the side, because cops can shoot children with their hands up and still be called "Justified.")

Compared to

19,000 gun homicides that aren't justified.
23,000 gun suicides
70,000 gun injuries
400,000 gun crimes.

Why the hell do we live like this?

Yes, Harvard debunked the vast majority of "justified" gun incidents

The fallacy of self defence by gun

I've always stated that needing a gun for self defence was a fallacy, and we all know it is. So what's with the gun nuts running off and copying pasting articles from shady sources? Well look no further, just simply check with Harvard and the studies -...

www.usmessageboard.com

But gun nuts are as oblivious to gun stats as Democrats are oblivious to economics.

 

[2aguy]

Yes, Harvard debunked the vast majority of "justified" gun incidents

The fallacy of self defence by gun

I've always stated that needing a gun for self defence was a fallacy, and we all know it is. So what's with the gun nuts running off and copying pasting articles from shady sources? Well look no further, just simply check with Harvard and the studies -...

www.usmessageboard.com

But gun nuts are as oblivious to gun stats as Democrats are oblivious to economics.

No...they didn't.....they lied.....they were anti-gun researchers lying about the facts....I gave you 19 studies from both government and private researchers, trained professionals, and most of them are anti-gunners themselves......including the Centers for Disease Control, and the Department of Justice, you ignorant clod....

This blind spot you have for guns is fucking bizarre....you are conservative on everything else, except allowing the government to have the only ability to use force......living in a country across the water from the mass murder of 15-20 million people.......and only saved from the same fate because of Americans...with guns.....

Lives saved....based on research? By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct



that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—

==============

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

Clinton's study by the DOJ....

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Applying those restrictions leaves 19 NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of the sample), representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7. While the NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.



n the third column of Table 6.2, we apply the Kleck and Gertz (1995) criteria for "genuine" DGUs (type A), leaving us with just 19 respondents. They represent 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known Kleck and Gertz estimate of 2.5 million, shown in the last

While ours is smaller, it is staistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. to the when we include the multiple DGUs victim. defensive reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 milli

While ours is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference petrator; in most cases (69 percent), the is due to sampling error. Note that when we include the multiple DGUs reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 million DGUs.
----

As shown in Table 6.6, the defender fired his or her gun in 27 percent of these incidents (combined "fire warning shots" and "fire at perpetrator" percentages, though some respondents reported firing both warning shots and airning at the perpetrator). Forty percent of these were "warning shots," and about a third were aimed at the perpetrator but missed. The perpetrator was wounded by the crime victim in eight percent of all DGUs. In nine percent of DGUs the victim captured and held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police could arrive.

Obama's study...

Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2013. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press.

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | The National Academies Press

 

[2aguy]

Yes, Harvard debunked the vast majority of "justified" gun incidents

The fallacy of self defence by gun

I've always stated that needing a gun for self defence was a fallacy, and we all know it is. So what's with the gun nuts running off and copying pasting articles from shady sources? Well look no further, just simply check with Harvard and the studies -...

www.usmessageboard.com

But gun nuts are as oblivious to gun stats as Democrats are oblivious to economics.

Hemenway is a hack....

This paper explains how these authors produced extreme underestimates of DGU frequency and gross overstatements of the number of gun crimes.
Underestimating DGUs was accomplished by (1) using an eccentric and biased wording of the DGU question, (2) using a trap question that misled respondents (Rs) with a DGU into thinking they had already reported the DGU, (3) employing a long recall period that increased memory loss, and the (4) selecting a biased sample that systematically underrepresented people likely to have a DGU. Overstating the number of gun crimes was accomplished by (1) mischaracterizing incidents falling into a largely meaningless “hostile display” category as gun crimes, when the authors’ own evidence indicated that most of the “victims” of these displays did not regard them as a part of gun crime, and (2) ignoring the far more sophisticated National Crime Victimization Survey estimates of gun crime.
----
The only feasible way to measure the prevalence or incidence of DGU is with surveys, given that a large share of them are not reported to the police, and police do not maintain counts of DGUs aside from the tiny fraction (<1%) that result in the offender’s death (Kleck and Gertz 1995).
---
How Discrepant Were the DGU Estimates Implied by the Hemenway Surveys?
First, it is worth noting just how different the results of these two surveys were from other national surveys. Table 1 summarizes the estimates of DGU frequency implied by the findings of 19 national surveys, including the two by Hemenway and his colleagues. All are professionally conducted surveys of probability samples of the U.S. adult population in which respondents were asked a question specifically pertaining to defensive uses of firearms. Producing an estimate of the number of annual DGUs often entailed nothing more complicated than computing the percent of Rs who reported a DGU in the survey sample and multiplying it by the U.S. adult (18+) resident population as of the year the survey was fielded. Many surveys, however, did not ask questions pertaining to the same universe of events that were covered in the better surveys. For example, some included uses against animals, though most did not. Some excluded uses by police and security guards, others did not; some included uses of all types of
----

Before discussing the gap between these estimates and those yielded by the other surveys in Table 1, it is worth first noting that the Hemenway estimates are seven to ten times the “estimate” of DGUs supposedly implied by the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), of roughly 65,000 (McDowall and Wiersema 1994) – the one that Hemenway has repeatedly endorsed (Hemenway 1997; Hemenway and Azrael 2000; Hemenway et al. 2000). Even his own surveys’ results indicate that the NCVS-based “estimate” of DGUs is far too low.


The reasons for the extremely small numbers of Rs in the NCVS reporting a DGU have been detailed elsewhere (Kleck 2001), so only a brief outline is needed here. The NCVS has never asked even a single respondent specifically about defensive use of firearms. Instead, Rs are only asked an open-ended question about whether they did anything to protect themselves during a victimization incident, and are then asked to mention whatever specific self-protective actions they might be inclined to volunteer. Commenting on this problem in the NCVS, Tom Smith, Research Director of the National Opinion Research Center, stated that “indirect questions that rely on a respondent volunteering a specific element as part of a broad and unfocused inquiry uniformly lead to undercounts of the particular of interest” (Smith 1997, p. 1462). Hemenway’s own results confirm this insight, reinforcing the conclusion that the NCVS cannot provide meaningful estimates of DGU frequency.


Further, the NCVS is conducted by one federal government agency, the Census Bureau, and the Rs are told that the information will be provided to another federal agency, the Justice Department. The interviews are not anonymous – Rs know that the surveyors know their address

https://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2018-Hemenway-Distorted-Estimates-of-Defensive-Gun-Use-Frequency.pdf