The downward death spiral of lassaize faire capitalism

[Truthmatters]

I suggest you give some thought as to why our economy is in the toilet.

Kev , you seem like a nice enough guy but I think I have shown here I have given it thought.

Its you who have provided links to places who think for you.

You've provided nothing other than the fact that you believe this crisis was caused by "deregulation" because that's what the talking heads on television say.

EH.Net Encyclopedia: An Overview of the Great Depression


Go look at the table and you will see that the economy was recovering under Roosevelt.

To expect boom time returns in just a couple of years when they country was double hit by the crash and the DUST BOWL right after is just insanity.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl

I have given you unbiased sources and you have given biased ones.

Its time to face the fact that what you have believed in the past was wrong.

Libertarinism is a pipe dream and keeps us from making the right decisions.

 

[cunclusion]

The is no such thing as free market. Unforetunately people cannot be trusted to perform honestly. So regulation is needed but if the regulation is lax or the people enforcing the regulation are not doing their jobs it just like lassaize fair capitalism people do what they want without honesty or integrity. When people can be honest and have integrity can such a econonomic system to exist so basically it will never exist

 

[Truthmatters]

Exactly , its just like communism , it looks great on paper if everyone was honest and decent and worked together like brothers.

In reality it immediately turns into an opportunity for shifting your fortunes to the top asn being a dictator.

Its a pipe dream.

 

[Shogun]

I love how free marketers think we can do without agencies like the FDA because the market will correct itself after a few infants die of poisoned formula. This is a perfect example of why WSJ capitalistas are dangerous.

 

[Gord]

This is what I have discovered about the origins of the current credit crisis from my own research:

In 1992 President Clinton along with the Democrat congress passed the Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act of 1992 which directed Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, each known as a government sponsored enterprise (GSE) to purchase what were then known as subprime mortgages from banks and repackage them as mortgage-backed securities, and sell them to the broader financial market. This was the tipping point for the Democrat CRA which was originally enacted by Carter and another Democrat congress. In 1995 and again in 1999 Clinton ordered HUD (who were charged with setting the qualifications) to expand the Democrat CRA requirements for bank compliance. These were again later expanded by the Bush administration. But the evolvement of the CRA was not the only cause, just the catalyst. The next nail in the coffin was the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act in 1999 which kept investment banking and commercial banking as separate entities. This along with a massive increase in allowable margin led to the investment banks use of highly leveraged mortgage derivatives and other related derivatives. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall act was signed by Clinton, but was really was the result of years of lobbying by Robert Rubin, the current top advisor to president Obama. Rubin stepped down from the Clinton administration Treasury Secretary position only months before to head up the chairmanship of Citigroup. It thus came to be known as the "Citigroup Authorization Act". The last nail in the coffin, and possibly the most important in magnifying the problem, were the artificially low interest rates produced by the Fed. These combination of factors evolved into the credit crisis we are now experiencing that is based on overly leveraged derivatives where the underlying capitol failed due to the bursting of the housing bubble.

 

[cunclusion]

So basically this is an issue of not enough regulation and government manipulation of the bill that if kept in place would have not allowed a housing bubble to start. And a man who took advantage of the situation to get him a high paying job.

 

[Gord]

So basically this is an issue of not enough regulation and government manipulation of the bill that if kept in place would have not allowed a housing bubble to start. And a man who took advantage of the situation to get him a high paying job.

It was a combination of factors. Some might put more emphasis on the Fed's manipulation of interest rates as the largest boogieman. Some might point to Robert Rubin or Bill Clinton. Certainly the bush adminstration might have done more to reign in the problem. But deregulation was not the direct cause unless you point to the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act.

 

[auditor0007]

FDRs polices did not prolong the depression, that is just a talking point of people who want us to continue this stupidity that the republicans have been giving us for 30 years now. There is no fact to it ,its a scewed theory.


No Hoover had some of the same ideas and did them in a timid ass way.


Tax cuts are the same damned thing.

What is the plan for the chaos that no fed will bring?

What you are requesting is all fun on paper but would produce utter chaos for years to come.

I have to agree with this. While I believe that we need to allow the market to work itself through most ups and downs, government is necessary. Without some regulation, it would be complete chaos, and the economy would collapse, which in turn would lead to something much further away from a free market than what we currently have.

Government provides a necessary safety net. Without it, the disparity between rich and poor would be much larger than it now is, and the middle class would be near non-existent.

 

[auditor0007]

I suggest you give some thought as to why our economy is in the toilet.

Kev , you seem like a nice enough guy but I think I have shown here I have given it thought.

Its you who have provided links to places who think for you.

You've provided nothing other than the fact that you believe this crisis was caused by "deregulation" because that's what the talking heads on television say.

Has anyone wondered if we just allowed this entire system to become to complex? There are many homes in foreclosure now where they can't even figure out who holds the actual mortgage because it's been bought and sold so many times. When it comes to making bad loans, doesn't it stand to reason that those bad loans would never have been made had those lending the money been required to hold on to those mortgages? Instead, we allowed these mortgages to be bought and sold as if they were Yugio cards.

Either people blame deregulation as the cause of our problems or we blame too little regulation. The fact is that some regulation is necessary, but it should not become a detriment to allowing the market to work freely within reasonable parameters.

 

[Munin]

Seriously do you think Bush would betray his own beliefs if he hadn't tried anything else?

The fact that Bush and his republican colleagues from his government, FED, ... had to resort to "socialistic" measures to save the economy is probably because they failed at anything else. Why else would a republican use those measures if it wasn't for a last resort?

I hope we will get insight later in how exactly the housing crisis managed to contaminate the rest of the economy and I can tell you one thing now: it probably aint going to be because of too much regulations.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

...says the guy quoting a free market think tank as if his own bias smells like roses....

Well I can't quote any Keynesians because they're all wrong.

your opinion doesn't seem to match reality, dude. I suggest you find another pawn to throw under the bus after Greenspan finally dies.

Well when Greenspan "finally dies" it still won't be true that he was a free marketeer. The head of the Federal Reserve cannot possibly be for a free market. But when he does die I'll still have Bernanke, Paulson, Bush to throw under the bus as false free marketeers.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kev , you seem like a nice enough guy but I think I have shown here I have given it thought.

Its you who have provided links to places who think for you.

You've provided nothing other than the fact that you believe this crisis was caused by "deregulation" because that's what the talking heads on television say.

EH.Net Encyclopedia: An Overview of the Great Depression


Go look at the table and you will see that the economy was recovering under Roosevelt.

To expect boom time returns in just a couple of years when they country was double hit by the crash and the DUST BOWL right after is just insanity.Dust Bowl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have given you unbiased sources and you have given biased ones.

Its time to face the fact that what you have believed in the past was wrong.

Libertarinism is a pipe dream and keeps us from making the right decisions.

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate / UCLA Newsroom

UCLA Economists: Government Intervention Prolonged Great Depression

Don't Trust the Brain Trust - Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. - Mises Institute

How FDR's New Deal Harmed Millions of Poor People

http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0508-25.pdf

How This Happened by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

Libertarianism hasn't kept the government from doing anything, whether they be right decisions or wrong decisions. We are too much of a minority to have any serious effect on government policies.

 

[midcan5]

The curious irony of this debate is the time prior to the great depression was a similar time when free market ideas prevailed and the same situation occurred. When people appeal to an idea whether it be Marxism or capitalism they seem to forget the ideas don't manage the economy, they are just ideas. It is the people who manage and people do dumb things sometimes. Plus while all free marketeers like to think some scale will balance crookery and honesty greed is a powerful motivator and in the end causes great harm. No idea (ideology) works perfectly and it is about time people realized that.

"The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back. I am sure that the power of vested interests is vastly exaggerated compared with the gradual encroachment of ideas.. But, soon or late, it is ideas, not vested interests, which are dangerous for good or evil." John Maynard Keynes


The Great Depression, to 1935
Summary

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The curious irony of this debate is the time prior to the great depression was a similar time when free market ideas prevailed and the same situation occurred. When people appeal to an idea whether it be Marxism or capitalism they seem to forget the ideas don't manage the economy, they are just ideas. It is the people who manage and people do dumb things sometimes. Plus while all free marketeers like to think some scale will balance crookery and honesty greed is a powerful motivator and in the end causes great harm. No idea (ideology) works perfectly and it is about time people realized that.

"The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back. I am sure that the power of vested interests is vastly exaggerated compared with the gradual encroachment of ideas.. But, soon or late, it is ideas, not vested interests, which are dangerous for good or evil." John Maynard Keynes


The Great Depression, to 1935
Summary

Free market ideas did not prevail prior to the Great Depression, the Federal Reserve prevailed prior to the Great Depression and Hoover's interventionist policies prevailed prior to the Great Depression.

 

[Shogun]

yea.. I mean.. only a FEW babies will have to die in order to show that the free market corrects itself!


:wank:

 

[jillian]

Free market ideas did not prevail prior to the Great Depression, the Federal Reserve prevailed prior to the Great Depression and Hoover's interventionist policies prevailed prior to the Great Depression.

you're mixing up issues. the "fed" may be your focus, but it isn't what caused the depression. and in fact, Bernanke, acknowledged that he was WRONG and that he should have been more hands on, not less. your beloved laissez faire capitalism has already been proven to be a massive failure.... as has trickle down economics.

why is it people like you ask that we accept your failed policies over and over?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

yea.. I mean.. only a FEW babies will have to die in order to show that the free market corrects itself!


:wank:

Babies dying? I'm not sure what you're talking about now.

However, just because you don't like the cure doesn't mean it's wrong. Yes, businesses will go out of business, people will be out of work, but that's not the doing of the free market. That's the fault of the Fed and the government interventions in the market. The recession has to happen, because the alternative is far worse.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Free market ideas did not prevail prior to the Great Depression, the Federal Reserve prevailed prior to the Great Depression and Hoover's interventionist policies prevailed prior to the Great Depression.

you're mixing up issues. laissez faire capitalism has already been proven to be a massive failure.... as has trickle down economics.

why is it people like you ask that we accept your failed policies over and over?

When was laissez-faire capitalism proven as a massive failure?

 

[Shogun]

yea.. I mean.. only a FEW babies will have to die in order to show that the free market corrects itself!


:wank:

Babies dying? I'm not sure what you're talking about now.

However, just because you don't like the cure doesn't mean it's wrong. Yes, businesses will go out of business, people will be out of work, but that's not the doing of the free market. That's the fault of the Fed and the government interventions in the market. The recession has to happen, because the alternative is far worse.

Im making fun of libertarians who think that the wholesale removal of government regulation agencies, for the sake of a free market, is preferable.. Again, ONLY a few babies would have to die in order to achieve the same thing the fucking FDA does when regulating food products!

so, yes, your opinions ARE wrong.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

yea.. I mean.. only a FEW babies will have to die in order to show that the free market corrects itself!


:wank:

Babies dying? I'm not sure what you're talking about now.

However, just because you don't like the cure doesn't mean it's wrong. Yes, businesses will go out of business, people will be out of work, but that's not the doing of the free market. That's the fault of the Fed and the government interventions in the market. The recession has to happen, because the alternative is far worse.

Im making fun of libertarians who think that the wholesale removal of government regulation agencies, for the sake of a free market, is preferable.. Again, ONLY a few babies would have to die in order to achieve the same thing the fucking FDA does when regulating food products!

so, yes, your opinions ARE wrong.

Well I think you're wrong.