The debates

[rylah]

None of it.

All of it.

Can you find any definition of
Palestinian territory in international law,
that is not titled for Jewish re-constitution?

 

[watchingfromafar]

The only reason you must resort to strawman fallacies, because
your narrative holds no water without misrepresenting both positions.

Speaking of water, the Israelis are running out.
-

 

[watchingfromafar]

Can you find any definition of
Palestinian territory in international law,
that is not titled for Jewish re-constitution?

Ask and you shall receive
The international recognition of the State of Palestine has been the objective of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) since the Palestinian Declaration of Independence proclaimed the establishment of the State of Palestine on 15 November 1988 in Algiers, Algeria at an extraordinary session in exile of the Palestinian National Council. The declaration was promptly acknowledged by a range of countries, and by the end of the year, the proclaimed state was recognized by over 78 countries. As of 31 July 2019, 138 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states and two non-member states have recognized it. Palestine also has been a non-member observer state of the UN General Assembly since the passing of United Nations General Assembly resolution 67/19 in November 2012.
International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia

Among the G20, 9 countries (Argentina, Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Turkey) have recognized Palestine as a state.
International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia
-

 

[rylah]

Ask and you shall receive
The international recognition of the State of Palestine has been the objective of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) since the Palestinian Declaration of Independence proclaimed the establishment of the State of Palestine on 15 November 1988 in Algiers,

International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia
-

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Clarification of Intentional Deception by the Arab Palestinians
※→ P F Tinmore, el at,

PREFACE: What we know as a matter of history on the record.

​

25 Feb 1948​

Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.​

2. After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.​

SOURCE: A/AC.21/UK/42 25 February 1948. Sir Alexander Cadogan of the United Kingdom Delegation.​

​

​

It was Palestine then Jordan occupied the West Bank. Then Israel occupied the West Bank. It is still occupied Palestinian territory.

Jordan did not give the West Bank to Israel because it was not theirs to give away.

(COMMENT)

On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further Zionist expansion.
SOURCE: The Office History

It seems like I must call this up from the record every few months or so to counter one of your propaganda remarks.

The UN had no authority over this matter and no resolution may interfere with a domestic matter as agreed to by the acceptance of the Charter. (Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter, but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll. Article 2(7) ]

Furthermore, the Arab Palestinians had input into the Jordanian decision to "Annex" the territory.

​

On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further Zionist expansion.​

SOURCE: The Office History​

​

​

This is not in contravention to the accepted Customary International Law of the period.

Article 3​

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence, to provide for its conservation and prosperity, and consequently to organize itself as it sees fit, to legislate upon its interests, administer its services, and to define the jurisdiction and competence of its courts. The exercise of these rights has no other limitation than the exercise of the rights of other states according to international law.
SOURCE: 1-02 Rights and duties of states

Finally, in the 21st Century, the UN made a determination that:

SOURCE: Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs United Nations
​

Sovereignty is, at the end of the day, about what authority exercises control over the entity. You can cite all the UN resolutions you can find on the subject, but there is one, single authority over the territory. It is that authority that must be recognized with the issue.

sovereignty ‘Sovereignty as a principle of international law must be sharply distinguished from other related uses of the term: sovereignty in its internal aspects and political sovereignty. Sovereignty in its internal aspects is concerned with the identity of the bearer of supreme authority within a State.
SOURCE: Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law / John P. Grant and J. Craig Barker. -- 3rd ed.
Copyright ˝ 2009 by Oxford University Press, Inc. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc. 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016

The Arab Palestinians have never been the "supreme authority" until the unilateral withdrawal of Israeli authority from the Gaza Strip. And of course, it can be argued that Area "A" is under the sovereign control of the Ramallah Government (at this moment). So, your statement that "Jordan did not give the West Bank to Israel because it was not theirs to give away" is unsupported. in other than what has been mentioned.

I find your spreading of misinformation is becoming much more prevalent than in past years. But I would read this closely. And when you present your opposing view, cite the authority. If you counter with - sovereignty is with the people - then show how that nullifies the Parliamentary action f the Arab Palestinian people of the West Bank. And I would very much like to see what formed government of the Arab Palestinians was exercising supreme authority in whatever territory and when.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

Ask and you shall receive
The international recognition of the State of Palestine has been the objective of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) since the Palestinian Declaration of Independence proclaimed the establishment of the State of Palestine on 15 November 1988 in Algiers, Algeria at an extraordinary session in exile of the Palestinian National Council. The declaration was promptly acknowledged by a range of countries, and by the end of the year, the proclaimed state was recognized by over 78 countries. As of 31 July 2019, 138 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states and two non-member states have recognized it. Palestine also has been a non-member observer state of the UN General Assembly since the passing of United Nations General Assembly resolution 67/19 in November 2012.
International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia

Among the G20, 9 countries (Argentina, Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Turkey) have recognized Palestine as a state.
International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia
-

(COMMENT)

See #545 above.

R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sovereignty is, at the end of the day, about what authority exercises control over the entity.

You keep confusing Military occupation with sovereignty. Military occupations do not acquire sovereignty.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Clarification of Intentional Deception by the Arab Palestinians
※→ P F Tinmore, el at,

PREFACE: What we know as a matter of history on the record.

​

​

(COMMENT)



It seems like I must call this up from the record every few months or so to counter one of your propaganda remarks.

The UN had no authority over this matter and no resolution may interfere with a domestic matter as agreed to by the acceptance of the Charter. (Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter, but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll. Article 2(7) ]

Furthermore, the Arab Palestinians had input into the Jordanian decision to "Annex" the territory.

​

​

This is not in contravention to the accepted Customary International Law of the period.


Finally, in the 21st Century, the UN made a determination that:

View attachment 579309
SOURCE: Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs United Nations
​

Sovereignty is, at the end of the day, about what authority exercises control over the entity. You can cite all the UN resolutions you can find on the subject, but there is one, single authority over the territory. It is that authority that must be recognized with the issue.


The Arab Palestinians have never been the "supreme authority" until the unilateral withdrawal of Israeli authority from the Gaza Strip. And of course, it can be argued that Area "A" is under the sovereign control of the Ramallah Government (at this moment). So, your statement that "Jordan did not give the West Bank to Israel because it was not theirs to give away" is unsupported. in other than what has been mentioned.

I find your spreading of misinformation is becoming much more prevalent than in past years. But I would read this closely. And when you present your opposing view, cite the authority. If you counter with - sovereignty is with the people - then show how that nullifies the Parliamentary action f the Arab Palestinian people of the West Bank. And I would very much like to see what formed government of the Arab Palestinians was exercising supreme authority in whatever territory and when.

Most Respectfully,
R

2. After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing.

Indeed, it will be an NSGT (non self governing territory) under foreign control.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Clarification of Intentional Deception by the Arab Palestinians
※→ P F Tinmore, el at,

PREFACE: What we know as a matter of history on the record.

​

​

(COMMENT)



It seems like I must call this up from the record every few months or so to counter one of your propaganda remarks.

The UN had no authority over this matter and no resolution may interfere with a domestic matter as agreed to by the acceptance of the Charter. (Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter, but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll. Article 2(7) ]

Furthermore, the Arab Palestinians had input into the Jordanian decision to "Annex" the territory.

​

​

This is not in contravention to the accepted Customary International Law of the period.


Finally, in the 21st Century, the UN made a determination that:

View attachment 579309
SOURCE: Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs United Nations
​

Sovereignty is, at the end of the day, about what authority exercises control over the entity. You can cite all the UN resolutions you can find on the subject, but there is one, single authority over the territory. It is that authority that must be recognized with the issue.


The Arab Palestinians have never been the "supreme authority" until the unilateral withdrawal of Israeli authority from the Gaza Strip. And of course, it can be argued that Area "A" is under the sovereign control of the Ramallah Government (at this moment). So, your statement that "Jordan did not give the West Bank to Israel because it was not theirs to give away" is unsupported. in other than what has been mentioned.

I find your spreading of misinformation is becoming much more prevalent than in past years. But I would read this closely. And when you present your opposing view, cite the authority. If you counter with - sovereignty is with the people - then show how that nullifies the Parliamentary action f the Arab Palestinian people of the West Bank. And I would very much like to see what formed government of the Arab Palestinians was exercising supreme authority in whatever territory and when.

Most Respectfully,
R

The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...

Palestine declared independence in 1948 and was recognized by five other states.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Intentionally Misleading
※→ P F Tinmore, el at,

Indeed, it will be an NSGT (non self governing territory) under foreign control.

(COMMENT)

I do not believe that there is any Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGTs) anywhere in the Middle East. And that holds true for the Gaza Strip, and Areas A, B, and C.

Every scrap of land in the territory formerly under the Mandate, transition through Trusteeship, and adjacent zones/Cities within the territory is claimed by someone.

There was no land that was seized and taken from the Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

I do not believe that there is any Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGTs) anywhere in the Middle East.

Britain said it was. Subsequent UN resolutions say it is.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There was no land that was seized and taken from the Arab Palestinians.

750,000 Palestinians were kicked out of somewhere in 1948.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Debates
SUBTOPIC: Borders
※→ P F Tinmore, el al,

Are you going to answer this or just dance around ?

(COMMENT)

Well, I don't recall making that exact statement, but there is evidence to support that claim.

The Palestinian Citizenship Law which was the authority under which the British issued Identity Documents and Travel Document, was pure British Law. And that authority receded as the British withdrew. After 15 May 1948, the Arab Palestinians that remained came to be under the responsibility of either Israel or one of the Arab League nations which ceased control. There was no Arab Palestinian Government that had any functional authority other than to make noise.

When, in April 1950, the Jordanians annexed the territory of the West Bank and the ancillary holdings, Under Article 30, Treaty of Lausanne, the Jordanians assumed the responsibility for citizenship and nationality issues. The Arab Palestinians became Jordanian Nationals and NOT stateless refugees.

Now today, the Arab Palestinians actually fight for refugee status so they may qualify for the UN handouts. BUT! Technically, there are no stateless refugees in either the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

Palestine declared independence in 1948 and was recognized by five other states.

You’re a bit befuddled. The nascent State of Israel declared independence in 1948. Five Arab nations invaded lands of the former British Mandate.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinian Citizenship Law which was the authority under which the British issued Identity Documents and Travel Document, was pure British Law. And that authority receded as the British withdrew.

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

. After 15 May 1948, the Arab Palestinians that remained came to be under the responsibility of either Israel or one of the Arab League nations which ceased control.

After the 1948 war the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. Occupations do not acquire sovereignty nor can they annex occupied territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The nascent State of Israel declared independence in 1948.

Where was it? Post a link showing its defined territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Five Arab nations invaded lands of the former British Mandate.

The Mandate had no territory.

 

[Hollie]

The Mandate had no territory.

That's correct. That's another of your standard cut and paste slogans. It has nothing to do with my comments.

 

[Hollie]

Where was it? Post a link showing its defined territory.

The forever aggrieved occupier of Ottoman Turk territory. Occupation doesn't mean ownership.

The Israeli defined territory included the territory defended against the Arab invaders.