The Crusades: Why are we still fighting them?

[Foxfyre]

I think it's disrespectful to other religions to claim your own is superior.

I think it is disrespectful of a religion that does not condone murder, imprisonment, intolerance of other religions to be called worse then a religion that does those things, and you KEEP doing it, all because some people oppose same sex marriage. YOU admit in Muslim Countries the argument would never come up because they would just murder you or imprison you, you admit Muslim countries are religiously intolerant, yet you KEEP claiming Christians are worse simply because some oppose same sex marriage.

Talk about RETARDED.

Is THAT the burr under Sky Dancer's saddle? Well that explains it then. It explains how she came to be the most judgmental, intolerant, critical, and nonaccepting Buddhist I have EVER met.

I like her though. She has some really peculiar ideas about things, but she does at least work at it to not be unpleasant, and that's pretty good for a message board.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I think it's disrespectful to other religions to claim your own is superior.

I think it is disrespectful of a religion that does not condone murder, imprisonment, intolerance of other religions to be called worse then a religion that does those things, and you KEEP doing it, all because some people oppose same sex marriage. YOU admit in Muslim Countries the argument would never come up because they would just murder you or imprison you, you admit Muslim countries are religiously intolerant, yet you KEEP claiming Christians are worse simply because some oppose same sex marriage.

Talk about RETARDED.

Christians aren't worse. They just impact my life in America more than Muslims do.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I think it's disrespectful to other religions to claim your own is superior.

I think it is disrespectful of a religion that does not condone murder, imprisonment, intolerance of other religions to be called worse then a religion that does those things, and you KEEP doing it, all because some people oppose same sex marriage. YOU admit in Muslim Countries the argument would never come up because they would just murder you or imprison you, you admit Muslim countries are religiously intolerant, yet you KEEP claiming Christians are worse simply because some oppose same sex marriage.

Talk about RETARDED.

Is THAT the burr under Sky Dancer's saddle? Well that explains it then. It explains how she came to be the most judgmental, intolerant, critical, and nonaccepting Buddhist I have EVER met.

I like her though. She has some really peculiar ideas about things, but she does at least work at it to not be unpleasant, and that's pretty good for a message board.

Thank you for your honesty. It hurts.

Marriage equality and civil rights activism is important to me.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think it is disrespectful of a religion that does not condone murder, imprisonment, intolerance of other religions to be called worse then a religion that does those things, and you KEEP doing it, all because some people oppose same sex marriage. YOU admit in Muslim Countries the argument would never come up because they would just murder you or imprison you, you admit Muslim countries are religiously intolerant, yet you KEEP claiming Christians are worse simply because some oppose same sex marriage.

Talk about RETARDED.

Is THAT the burr under Sky Dancer's saddle? Well that explains it then. It explains how she came to be the most judgmental, intolerant, critical, and nonaccepting Buddhist I have EVER met.

I like her though. She has some really peculiar ideas about things, but she does at least work at it to not be unpleasant, and that's pretty good for a message board.

Thank you for your honesty.

It hurts.

Marriage equality and civil rights activism has been important to me throughout my life. You haven't walked in my shoes.

I did not intend to hurt you, and if I did I apologize. But when you make the flat out untrue statements about what I think or why I think it and/or Christians or Christianity that you do, that is offensive to me too. And I will stand up for the truth in such things. The same goes for racism or Tea Parties or other topics on other threads.

You have not walked in my shoes or in any of our shoes either. Our experiences very well may be the reason for it, but none of our experiences justify prejudice, racism, or license to say untruths just because we dislike or despise something.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What can I say? The truth is the Catholic Church, the LDS and right wing Christian evangelicals poured money into the state of California to defeat civil marriage equality.

It is the Christians in America, not the Muslims in the rest of the world who impact my life the most.

Do I have feelings about that? You bet I do.

I also recognize that some Christians are my allies and organized to help the marriage equality act.

Sometimes I think because Christians are the majority they feel they are entitled to some privelege to never be criticized for their actions. That strikes me as patently unfair.

Some of the most loving people I've met here are Christians. Gadawg. Allie Baba, Newby and Care4all come to mind.

Allie and I couldn't be more different in our views and we are very fond of each other. I appreciate the way she's a scrapper. We respect each other.

 

[Foxfyre]

What can I say? The truth is the Catholic Church, the LDS and right wing Christian evangelicals poured money into the state of California to defeat civil marriage equality.

It is the Christians in America, not the Muslims in the rest of the world who impact my life the most.

Do I have feelings about that? You bet I do.

I also recognize that some Christians are my allies and organized to help the marriage equality act.

Sometimes I think because Christians are the majority they feel they are entitled to some privelege to never be criticized for their actions. That strikes me as patently unfair.

Some of the most loving people I've met here are Christians. Gadawg. Allie Baba, Newby and Care4all come to mind.

Allie and I couldn't be more different in our views and we are very fond of each other. I appreciate the way she's a scrapper. We respect each other.

Then if you acknowledge that Chrsitians were on both sides of that issue just as Christians are on both sides of abortion, both sides of gun control, both sides of the death penalty, both sides of the debates on race and racism, all sides of the political spectrum, all sides of almost any socioeconomic issue you can think of. . . .

If you acknowledge all that, doesn't it make even less sense to make flat out untrue statements about Christians in general? Doesn't it make more sense to understand that Christianity isn't the problem, but rather that different people see things different ways?

And when you named Christians that you especially appreciate, how much sense does it make to make a statement like "Sometimes I think because Christians are the majority they feel they are entitled to some privelege to never be criticized for their actions. That strikes me as patently unfair." How insulting is that to those people you just appreciated?

Are you of the club that objecting to your characterization of something or refusing to accept a lie is the same thing as being entitled to never be criticized? What Christian here has ever said that we are immune to criticism for anything?

If I said such a thing about Buddhism, would you not think that prejudicial, irrational, and worthy to be criticized?

You want to know why we are still fighting the crusades? (The thesis of the thread).

We are still fighting because some people insist on everybody seeing it the way they see it. And if somebody does not, then some will say they are evil. They are attacked. They are misquote, misrepresented, and mischaracterized. And there is no effort to understand or appreciate the other person's position.

Tolerance means allowing the other person to be who or what he or she is and not punishing him/her for his/her point of view.

Until we learn that, the fight goes on.

 

[Sky Dancer]

We're done.

 

[Newby]

Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I'm saying my day to day life in America is more impacted by the Christian right than Muslims.

Kalam is not my 'buddy'. I put Gadawg in the buddy category. He's my kind of Christian.

You proudly display your ignorance. You ATTACK Christians cause some of them are against gay marriage while defending Islam where they PUT TO DEATH gay people and then say but golly they don't kill me here so they are safer.

I'm not attacking Christians. I'm stating the truth. The Christian Right is organizing against marriage equality in America. That issue impacts my daily life.

Muslims Americans don't declare it a national priority to fight civil marriage equality in my state. The LDS does. The Catholic Church does. Right wing evaneglicals do.

You hold a very narrow view then. You can't generalize about christians or muslims and make over arching comments based only on your narrow experiences. You need to qualify your statements to those christians and muslims directly around you then, and not as a global group. There's a lot more going out on out there in the world that does not match up with your personal experiences in the 100 or so miles around you.

 

[Newby]

I think it's disrespectful to other religions to claim your own is superior.

I think it is disrespectful of a religion that does not condone murder, imprisonment, intolerance of other religions to be called worse then a religion that does those things, and you KEEP doing it, all because some people oppose same sex marriage. YOU admit in Muslim Countries the argument would never come up because they would just murder you or imprison you, you admit Muslim countries are religiously intolerant, yet you KEEP claiming Christians are worse simply because some oppose same sex marriage.

Talk about RETARDED.

Christians aren't worse. They just impact my life in America more than Muslims do.

You needed to state this from the beginning. It took a lot of comments to get you to say it, which shouldn't have been necessary.

 

[Kalam]

You hold a very narrow view then. You can't generalize about christians or muslims and make over arching comments based only on your narrow experiences.

Why not? That seems to be what the rest of you are doing.

 

[Kalam]

Well being personally acquainted with.......

I typed a response to your post and my internet crapped out. I'll get around to it again, eventually.

 

[Newby]

What can I say? The truth is the Catholic Church, the LDS and right wing Christian evangelicals poured money into the state of California to defeat civil marriage equality.

It is the Christians in America, not the Muslims in the rest of the world who impact my life the most.

Do I have feelings about that? You bet I do.

I also recognize that some Christians are my allies and organized to help the marriage equality act.

Sometimes I think because Christians are the majority they feel they are entitled to some privelege to never be criticized for their actions. That strikes me as patently unfair.

Some of the most loving people I've met here are Christians. Gadawg. Allie Baba, Newby and Care4all come to mind.

Allie and I couldn't be more different in our views and we are very fond of each other. I appreciate the way she's a scrapper. We respect each other.

If I may ask Sky, how did money make a difference on the outcome of the vote? It was a separate issue on the ballot and everyone voted on an idividual basis one way or the other correct? Do you really think some commercials changed people's mind how they felt about gay marriage?

 

[Newby]

You hold a very narrow view then. You can't generalize about christians or muslims and make over arching comments based only on your narrow experiences.

Why not? That seems to be what the rest of you are doing.

I'm going based on what I see on a global scale and on what I've read and personally seen on the news.

 

[Foxfyre]

You hold a very narrow view then. You can't generalize about christians or muslims and make over arching comments based only on your narrow experiences.

Why not? That seems to be what the rest of you are doing.

I'm sure it does look that way sometimes. But my intent was never to argue with you but to encourage you to share what you do believe and intend. And I'm sure I let some of my own prejudices get in the way of a fully open discourse when I drew premature judgments.

We are all subject to our own prejudices, biases, perceptions, and impressions based on the experience we have, and some have considerably more experience than others.

Actually I have appreciated you Kalam because you are pretty open and honest in your understanding of your beliefs and I have appreciated that. Obviously I hope that America will never trade its Constitution and personal freedoms for any form of Islamic law, but I don't blame those who choose that way of life as right for them.

And I hope that all religions and all peoples will eventually evolve to the point that fighting the crusades are no longer necessary.

 

[Foxfyre]

What can I say? The truth is the Catholic Church, the LDS and right wing Christian evangelicals poured money into the state of California to defeat civil marriage equality.

It is the Christians in America, not the Muslims in the rest of the world who impact my life the most.

Do I have feelings about that? You bet I do.

I also recognize that some Christians are my allies and organized to help the marriage equality act.

Sometimes I think because Christians are the majority they feel they are entitled to some privelege to never be criticized for their actions. That strikes me as patently unfair.

Some of the most loving people I've met here are Christians. Gadawg. Allie Baba, Newby and Care4all come to mind.

Allie and I couldn't be more different in our views and we are very fond of each other. I appreciate the way she's a scrapper. We respect each other.

If I may ask Sky, how did money make a difference on the outcome of the vote? It was a separate issue on the ballot and everyone voted on an idividual basis one way or the other correct? Do you really think some commercials changed people's mind how they felt about gay marriage?

On another board, I have had a fairly long friendship with a gay man that can actually talk about that situation openly and constructively. He intially agreed that gay kids need a mom and a dad in the home as much as straight kids and there was foundation for preservation of traditional marriage, and the gay community should not seek to weaken that but work to come up with something equally meaningful and beneficial for gays. I was 100% in his corner on that.

I was then away from that board for awhile and when I returned briefly, he had reversed his opinion and was militantly pro gay marriage and militantly opposed to those who had opposed it. I asked him privately what happened in the time I was gone, and it was that whole mess in California that so angered him that he went militant. He was able to explain his feelings and how he felt the Christiani community--and he is a Christian--had savaged the whole process.

So I do understand now where Sky is coming from.

He has been able to recognize that it was a small minority of Christians involved and does not blame Christianity as being any worse than any other group made up of imperfect people. He also has accepted that many other than Christians were involved in the opposition. It might be more difficult for a non-Christian to come to that conclusion. I don't know.

He also acknowledged that the gay rights groups, etc. could have helped out financially and chose not to do so on the same scale. And he acknowledges that the overreaching by some Christian groups may have won a lot of votes for the pro-gay marriage side too, as many were offended by that.

I think when it all shakes out in the final histories written about it all, it will look a lot different to a lot of people.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What can I say? The truth is the Catholic Church, the LDS and right wing Christian evangelicals poured money into the state of California to defeat civil marriage equality.

It is the Christians in America, not the Muslims in the rest of the world who impact my life the most.

Do I have feelings about that? You bet I do.

I also recognize that some Christians are my allies and organized to help the marriage equality act.

Sometimes I think because Christians are the majority they feel they are entitled to some privelege to never be criticized for their actions. That strikes me as patently unfair.

Some of the most loving people I've met here are Christians. Gadawg. Allie Baba, Newby and Care4all come to mind.

Allie and I couldn't be more different in our views and we are very fond of each other. I appreciate the way she's a scrapper. We respect each other.

If I may ask Sky, how did money make a difference on the outcome of the vote? It was a separate issue on the ballot and everyone voted on an idividual basis one way or the other correct? Do you really think some commercials changed people's mind how they felt about gay marriage?

This should answer your question.

" Only about 2 percent of Californians are Mormons, but church members poured huge sums of money into the campaign – at least $22 million, including $3 million in the final week that came directly from Utah. Thanks to intervention by the church hierarchy, Mormons provided more than 70 percent of the budget of the pro-Prop 8 effort.

The money was used for an onslaught of ads and a well-coordinated ground campaign. As The New York Times put it, “The money financed a sophisticated media barrage that involved blogs, Twitter and YouTube videos, as well as scary (and, according to the movie, misleading) television ads, and an aggressive door-to-door campaign whose foot soldiers were instructed on how not to appear Mormon.”

The result was a narrow win for same-sex marriage opponents, 52 to 48 percent.

Of course, the Mormons were not the only group involved in the campaign. The Roman Catholic hierarchy and various fundamentalist groups jumped into the fray as well. But no other religious group could match the Mormons when it came to money, power and media relations efforts.

Religious groups have the right to speak out on social issues. But in this case, a wealthy, powerful (and mostly out-of-state) church poured unprecedented sums into an effort to write its theology into law and take away the rights of a group of people it does not like. To a lot of Americans, it just didn’t seem right.
At The Movies: New Documentary Examines Mormon Church Influence On Prop. 8 Vote The Wall of Separation

 

[Sky Dancer]

I think it is disrespectful of a religion that does not condone murder, imprisonment, intolerance of other religions to be called worse then a religion that does those things, and you KEEP doing it, all because some people oppose same sex marriage. YOU admit in Muslim Countries the argument would never come up because they would just murder you or imprison you, you admit Muslim countries are religiously intolerant, yet you KEEP claiming Christians are worse simply because some oppose same sex marriage.

Talk about RETARDED.

Christians aren't worse. They just impact my life in America more than Muslims do.

You needed to state this from the beginning. It took a lot of comments to get you to say it, which shouldn't have been necessary.

Maybe so. I didn't really want to get into it.

 

[Intense]

What can I say? The truth is the Catholic Church, the LDS and right wing Christian evangelicals poured money into the state of California to defeat civil marriage equality.

It is the Christians in America, not the Muslims in the rest of the world who impact my life the most.

Do I have feelings about that? You bet I do.

I also recognize that some Christians are my allies and organized to help the marriage equality act.

Sometimes I think because Christians are the majority they feel they are entitled to some privelege to never be criticized for their actions. That strikes me as patently unfair.

Some of the most loving people I've met here are Christians. Gadawg. Allie Baba, Newby and Care4all come to mind.

Allie and I couldn't be more different in our views and we are very fond of each other. I appreciate the way she's a scrapper. We respect each other.

If I may ask Sky, how did money make a difference on the outcome of the vote? It was a separate issue on the ballot and everyone voted on an idividual basis one way or the other correct? Do you really think some commercials changed people's mind how they felt about gay marriage?

This should answer your question.

" Only about 2 percent of Californians are Mormons, but church members poured huge sums of money into the campaign – at least $22 million, including $3 million in the final week that came directly from Utah. Thanks to intervention by the church hierarchy, Mormons provided more than 70 percent of the budget of the pro-Prop 8 effort.

The money was used for an onslaught of ads and a well-coordinated ground campaign. As The New York Times put it, “The money financed a sophisticated media barrage that involved blogs, Twitter and YouTube videos, as well as scary (and, according to the movie, misleading) television ads, and an aggressive door-to-door campaign whose foot soldiers were instructed on how not to appear Mormon.”

The result was a narrow win for same-sex marriage opponents, 52 to 48 percent.

Of course, the Mormons were not the only group involved in the campaign. The Roman Catholic hierarchy and various fundamentalist groups jumped into the fray as well. But no other religious group could match the Mormons when it came to money, power and media relations efforts.

Religious groups have the right to speak out on social issues. But in this case, a wealthy, powerful (and mostly out-of-state) church poured unprecedented sums into an effort to write its theology into law and take away the rights of a group of people it does not like. To a lot of Americans, it just didn’t seem right.
At The Movies: New Documentary Examines Mormon Church Influence On Prop. 8 Vote The Wall of Separation

Freedom of Speech at it's finest. I don't support misleading and lying. Both sides are champions at that. No body should be restricting the free flow of idea's, nor destroying the messenger.

 

[editec]

Generalizing about Christians (all one billion of us) makes no more sense than gneralizing about the one billion Moslems.

Naturally our resident antiIslamics and or anti-Christians tend to miss that point.

 

[daveman]

You hold a very narrow view then. You can't generalize about christians or muslims and make over arching comments based only on your narrow experiences.

Why not? That seems to be what the rest of you are doing.

...says the guy who says his faith allows him to kill non-believers.