The Constitution, Congress & Corruption.

[Procrustes Stretched]

I find it sad and disheartening, that what I consider to be far too many citizens of the USA today, assert that the Congress is ''thoroughly corrupt.''

One particular poster here had a Private Message session with me, where they stated the premise that the Congress is ''thoroughly corrupt.''

When I protested that I disagreed with that premise, we went on to send and received a series of PMs to each other about corruption and the congress. Here is what I consider an honest portrayal of their point of view (pov) from a partial representation of what they asserted in reply to my probings, and ond our back and forth:

Perhaps, defining corruption would be a good idea?

I believe most, if not all, enter the profession with the best of intentions. Unfortunately, I believe that in order to get things done, they have to play the game with the lobbyists. They have to sell themselves in order to survive. This is the kind of corruption that I speak of.

I think lobbyists buy what they want, or should I say what their clients want, with bribes and/or threats. ...They are not donors.

I think "donations" from lobbyists come with strings attached...

any grammatical or structural issues with the above are soley the result of my c&p.

the style is all theirs...

a synopsis of my replies and reasoning will follow.

d.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Before I go any further..

I believe in a government of laws.

Like Madison, I believe

''A sanction is essential to the idea of law, as coercion is to that of the government '' -Madison, 'Notes on Ancient and Modern Confederacies'

-Gary Wills, James Madison

I use the quote from Wills' book because at some point in my argument I base my beliefs on positions right out of the mouths and pens of our founding fathers.

I do not believe the founders to be infallible, but their words and thoughts carry some wieght.

Madison, in particular interests me, becuase both he and Hamilton, when both were later in government, contradicited themselves as well as each other.

This in part is why I decided to put this thread in the Education and History section.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

a synopsis of...

d.

I think most people confuse lobbyists and donors, and their legitimate roles in the process of legislating and in electoral politics.

Politicians of all parties make things worse when the lines between party loyalty and core principles get obscured and/or collide.

Money and the influence it brings into any deliberative process, is the cause of the actual corruption
Money and it's influence is what most people have an issue with...but many pols campaign against limiting money and the influences it brings, and sadly many people argue this as an ideological point.

There is the philosophical issue, but philosophy as policy, not tempered by reality, often falls short on delivery.

Citizens as individuals and as groups and from all walks of life have an interest and I'l say 'a duty' to contribute, vote, and lobby our representatives and petition the government. But money can out shout as well as out buy the attention of a majority of the citizenry.

Corruption exists. I do not believe any particular party is inherently open to corruption, but there are times when particualr parties are more corrupt when in power.

I do think a particular ideology or philosophy is more open to corrution Not to say that any one party is superior because of it's ideological bent, but a larger tent breeds principles over loyalty.

I am for the idea of term limits strictly because I think the temptation is too great. There is a lot of money from the special interests. .. the only way to reduce that influence ... to speak every few cycles and we as citizens can't seem to get together on how to do that so term limits are the only way I can see to accomplish the task.

My answer...

So you would limit freedom to choose, by force....

Which brings me around to Madison and....

 

[Big Black Dog]

No, I disagree with you, DevNell. Everybody in Congress would say or do anything to get re-elected. They are a bunch of low-lifes. How could anybody with any kind of scrupples accept a bribe as the Senator from Nebraska did? He was against the Health Care Reform bill until they poneyed up some goods for his state. Political whores. That's what they all are. I wouldn't eat lunch with any of them.

 

[manifold]

Everybody's jumping on the circus train.
Some jump high, some jump off again.
And the razzmatazz is rolling, women folk unveiled.
All truths to light, all crosses nailed.
Aiming high where the eagle circles,
Where he keeps his tail feathers clean.
And wonders "Am I still a free bird?
Or just a part of the machine".

 

[manifold]

They hitch their covered wagons and they roll out west.
Politics in the pockets of their Sunday best.
Shaking hands, kissing babies, for all that they're worth.
They promise you gold, promise heaven on earth.
Still, that old bald eagle circles,
It's not the first time that he's seen
His reflection in the eyes of innocence.
He's become just another part of the machine,
Part of the machine.

 

[manifold]

Smart guys aren't running they're home and dry.
Up in the mountains where the eagle flies.
They wouldn't take that job offered on a plate.
They got to fly with the eagle, and he won't wait.
Looking down on the smoke and the factories
Till the truth creeps up unseen.
They see themselves in the faces of their children
And realize they too are part of the machine.
Part of the machine.

 

[manifold]

wish I had an eagle like you
To wake up to.
He could be my wings to fly
In a big bird sky, hey
Let's be part of the machine.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

No, I disagree with you, DevNell. Everybody in Congress would say or do anything to get re-elected. They are a bunch of low-lifes.

Your opinions are neither reasoned, rational and lack any semblance of a critical analysis.

How could anybody with any kind of scrupples accept a bribe as the Senator from Nebraska did? He was against the Health Care Reform bill until they poneyed up some goods for his state. Political whores. That's what they all are. I wouldn't eat lunch with any of them.

Politicans are whores in the same sense that wage earners are wage whores.

political compromise and give and take is not cirruption and for you to say so is silly at best.

Maybe the school systen you went to droppes Civics as a class prerequiasite and it forever left you at a loss to understand the world around you.

sadder, is there are others who would cynicaly use your ignorance to persuade you to wage war against your own interests.

 

[Immanuel]

Okay... so get back to Madison already!

For the record, I am the person DevNell was speaking to via PM and he politely requested permission to bring this discussion public before doing so.

And yes, I do believe that special interests have corrupted Congress. I don't blame the congressman per se because I believe that they are human just as we are and the temptation is most likely unbearable.

Immie

 

[manifold]

humans are corruptable

a hardwired impediment to progress that we've somehow managed to overcome for thousands of years.

everybody owns a small piece of humanity. everybody.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Okay... so get back to Madison already!

Yes, Madison.

You advocate the coercive powers of national government to prevent people from selecting who will represent them to the national government.

Madison and others felt that part of a bi-cameral (SP)? ...(a few drinks). legislative body's role would be filled with locally elected representatives. These people fill the ''People's House''

term limits on them is an assault against free speech and choice.

For the record, I am the person DevNell was speaking to via PM ...and he politely ......requested permission....... to bring this discussion public before doing so.[/quite]shhhh, not so loud. I have an image to uphold. :j)

And yes, I do believe that special interests have corrupted Congress.

how exactly does this happpen?

I don't blame the congressman per se because I believe that they are human just as we are and the temptation is most likely unbearable.

Immie

I've known a few pols that have said the temptation is NOT so great.

It goes to character. Plain and simple. Like all the corrupt pols that ranted and raved against the character of Carter, and Reagan, and Bush, and Clinton, and Bush only to end up with their paws or principles in the gutter.

character. not faith or0religion or ideology. character

 

[Immanuel]

Okay... so get back to Madison already!

Yes, Madison.

You advocate the coercive powers of national government to prevent people from selecting who will represent them to the national government.

Madison and others felt that part of a bi-cameral (SP)? ...(a few drinks). legislative body's role would be filled with locally elected representatives. These people fill the ''People's House''

term limits on them is an assault against free speech and choice.

The issue I have with that, is that the people can not and will not make the decision to replace the corrupted individuals. Once in the house, they are their to stay. My understanding of the founding fathers (and I am no expert on them) was that they did not expect "politician" to become the lifelong career it has become.

For the record, I am the person DevNell was speaking to via PM ...and he politely ......requested permission....... to bring this discussion public before doing so.

shhhh, not so loud. I have an image to uphold. :j)

My apologies, I should have thought of that.

how exactly does this happpen?

Cold hard cash? EZ (no offense Echo Zulu) women? EZ young men for some of the Republicans... I didn't really write that did I? What ever it takes and they all have their price.

I don't blame the congressman per se because I believe that they are human just as we are and the temptation is most likely unbearable.

Immie

I've known a few pols that have said the temptation is NOT so great.

Um, what would you expect them to say?

It goes to character. Plain and simple. Like all the corrupt pols that ranted and raved against the character of Carter, and Reagan, and Bush, and Clinton, and Bush only to end up with their paws or principles in the gutter.

character. not faith or0religion or ideology. character

And all pols, I repeat ALL, have character flaws... just like me.

Immie

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The issue I have with that, is that the people can not and will not make the decision to replace the corrupted individuals. Once in the house, they are their to stay. My understanding of the founding fathers (and I am no expert on them) was that they did not expect "politician" to become the lifelong career it has become.

Funny thing. Madison and others were life long politicians.

The use of term limits was widespread during the Revolution where they demonstrated their impracticality. Because of them, Madison, one of the most valuable and conscientious members of the Continental Congressam had to leave it in 1783...

and there is more in Gary Wills' book ''James Madison.''[/QUOTE]
so you would use the coercive powers of government because '' people can not and will not make the decision to replace'' politicians?

think hard about what you advocating.

I am of the opinion that corruption has not reached the proortions we've seen in our past. History is repleat with such evidence. So I cannot support an alarmist and weak policy of limiting the people's choices for who represents them in the U S House

 

[Immanuel]

Yes, I would advocate term limits.

Heck, the government regulates so much of our lives, this is only a small part of it, and if it brings fresh blood into the house on a regular basis, it is a good thing.

Immie

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Cold hard cash? EZ (no offense Echo Zulu) women? EZ young men for some of the Republicans... I didn't really write that did I? What ever it takes and they all have their price.

Ye s you did write THAT (about Republican man boy love) and I'm texting while sitting out on an inside patio at my apt complex and my neighbor came over after I burst out laughing out loud.

I have headphones on and she was asking me what was so funny. Then.... oy vey!

back on topic: Money and sex. Oldest commerce.

I don't blame the congressman per se because I believe that they are human just as we are and the temptation is most likely unbearable.

Immie

I've known a few pols that have said the temptation is NOT so great.

Um, what would you expect them to say?

I am talking about people I respect. I've known some personally. Please, do not inject general bs into this area.

What I expect and get in return from people I know is what I give.

It goes to character. Plain and simple. Like all the corrupt pols that ranted and raved against the character of Carter, and Reagan, and Bush, and Clinton, and Bush only to end up with their paws or principles in the gutter.

Character. not faith or religion or ideology. Character.

And all pols, I repeat ALL, have character flaws... just like me.

Yes they do. And like me....some do not have the flaws of greed and hate and dishonesty as a way of life.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Yes, I would advocate term limits.

I suggest that those advocating term limits are more frustrated with the democratic nature of the system of politics in America, more than representative government and it's inherent flaws' and more than they are frustrated with the periphial issues of corruption and incumbency..

In your posts you have ceded the point that you are frustrated and that term limits are nothing more than a throw your arms up in the air approach than a reasonable' rational and creible solution. to what bothers you.

Heck, the government regulates so much of our lives, this is only a small part of it, and if it brings fresh blood into the house on a regular basis, it is a good thing.

Immie

Regulation of our lives? Very few laws truly regulate our lives. They regulate how we can use things etc, but our livesN

Nothing goes to the heart of freedom as voting for people to represent us. Nothing. Without the freedom to vote we becone serfs.

Term limits for the executive make sense. Term limits for the legislature do not. Term limits are no a panacea for democratic flaws.