Zone1 The Big Bootstrap Lie

[IM2]

They also had to get past the Comanche Indians who slaughtered everyone, wether They be Indian, White or Black man.. until after the civil war ended

Please stop. Just face the truth.

 

[IM2]

slaves? the messengers of the aztecs to their gods were the chiefs and nobles of neighboring tribes. prisoners of war.; like the ones we waterboard and other fun activities not much different from a fraternity initiation.

Yeah, they try making it all sound the same. African slaves were either war capitives or criminals until whites started choosing tribes to arm in order to get the captives to use as slaves. And that is what they call Africans selling each other. I think that in all of Afrivca I have seen where only 2 tribes partnered with whites. The Kingdoms of Dahomey and Benin. What these racists won't tell is how many whites died in Africa trying to get slaves.

 

[rampart]

View attachment 931369

love the t shirt. i didn;t get it at first (in context of this thread "so well" seemed to splashed my caffeine deficient brain as the popular conservative pundit "sowell")

 

[Grumblenuts]

In this country we beieve a lot of nostalgia about our past and how America has come to be. One of the great American Fairy tales is the tale of how one group of people pulled themselves up by the bootstras and made themselves successful. Having complete knowledge of American history should be something we all should strive to achieve. Because no one in this country raised themselves up by therown bootstraps ever. And if we believe that, we might as well believe that Paul Bunyan had a big blue ox and used that Ox and his plow to create the Rocky Mountains.

Pull Yourself Up by Bootstraps? Go Ahead, Try It​

It’s impossible, and yet the bootstraps narrative drives out good policy.

Back in the 1800s, the expression “pull oneself up by the bootstraps” meant the opposite of what it does now. Then it was used mockingly to describe an impossible act.

The problem is that this bootstraps narrative drives out good policy in three ways.

First, it suggests that historically Americans rose purely through rugged individualism — think of the pioneers!

Ah, but why did the pioneers go west? Because of government benefit programs that granted them homesteads! Ten percent of America’s land was given out as homesteads, and perhaps one-quarter of Americans (almost all of them white) owe part of their family wealth to the homestead acts.

Second, the bootstraps narrative often suggests that benefits programs are counterproductive because they foster “dependency.” That may have been a plausible argument a generation ago, but the evidence now indicates that it is incorrect.

Third, the bootstraps narrative implies that everyone can pull a Ben Carson (Carson himself falls for this fallacy). This is like arguing that because some people can run a four-minute mile, everyone can.

Yes, some Americans soar from humble beginnings; more often, the top is occupied by those who, say, were earning $200,000 a year at age 3, in today’s money, as President Trump was.

Opinion | Pull Yourself Up by Bootstraps? Go Ahead, Try It (Published 2020)

It’s impossible, and yet the bootstraps narrative drives out good policy.

www.nytimes.com

Perhaps AI could shed some new light on this ongoing intractable conundrum. Google AI suggests only four possible meanings for "Bootstrap":

"Bootstrap" has multiple meanings:

• Physical: A small strap or loop at the back of a boot that helps you pull it on
• Metaphor: To achieve success from a small beginning
• General: An approach to creating something that uses the minimum amount of resources possible
• Computer: The process of loading a program, usually an operating system, by first loading a smaller program

This is helpful. In each case some small thing is leveraged to achieve success regardless of context. However, the provided context is:

the tale of how one group of people pulled themselves up by the{ir} bootstra{p}s and made themselves successful.

So the main goal here is to somehow achieve higher elevation simply by tugging on these little straps attached to the back of one's boots.

Hmm,.. the question "As opposed to what?" immediately suggests itself. I think a bar over one's head or a ladder. Tugging on either one being much simpler and more effective than pulling on one's bootstraps. I got nothin'

 

[el midgetron]

slaves? the messengers of the aztecs to their gods were the chiefs and nobles of neighboring tribes. prisoners of war.; like the ones we waterboard and other fun activities not much different from a fraternity initiation.

Oh, look who is whitewashing slavery. Let alone human sacrifice, and cannibalism.

“When buying a collared slave, one was informed of how many times that slave had been sold. A slave who was sold three times as incorrigible could be sold to be sacrificed; those slaves commanded a premium in price.”

Slavery in the Aztec Empire - Wikipedia

“Massive sacrifices of captives and slaves by extraction of the heart“

“Sacrifices of children and slaves by decapitation”

“Sacrifices of children, two noble women, extraction of the heart and flaying; ritual cannibalism”

“Sacrifice of a decapitated young woman to Toci; she was skinned and a young man wore her skin; sacrifice of captives by hurling from a height and extraction of the heart”

Human sacrifice in Aztec culture - Wikipedia

Just like “water boarding”……. Sorry, but our cultures are not equal. You have chosen the culture of murdering children and eating their flesh, while most Americans oppose the use of CIA torture let alone ripping someone’s heart out as part of the state sponsored religion.

What kind of moral degenerates would try to normalize the concept of ritual human sacrifice by comparing it to CIA torture? That’s liberal plantation culture for you.

 

[Libby von H]

In this country we beieve a lot of nostalgia about our past and how America has come to be. One of the great American Fairy tales is the tale of how one group of people pulled themselves up by the bootstras and made themselves successful. Having complete knowledge of American history should be something we all should strive to achieve. Because no one in this country raised themselves up by therown bootstraps ever. And if we believe that, we might as well believe that Paul Bunyan had a big blue ox and used that Ox and his plow to create the Rocky Mountains.

Pull Yourself Up by Bootstraps? Go Ahead, Try It​

It’s impossible, and yet the bootstraps narrative drives out good policy.

Back in the 1800s, the expression “pull oneself up by the bootstraps” meant the opposite of what it does now. Then it was used mockingly to describe an impossible act.

The problem is that this bootstraps narrative drives out good policy in three ways.

First, it suggests that historically Americans rose purely through rugged individualism — think of the pioneers!

Ah, but why did the pioneers go west? Because of government benefit programs that granted them homesteads! Ten percent of America’s land was given out as homesteads, and perhaps one-quarter of Americans (almost all of them white) owe part of their family wealth to the homestead acts.

Second, the bootstraps narrative often suggests that benefits programs are counterproductive because they foster “dependency.” That may have been a plausible argument a generation ago, but the evidence now indicates that it is incorrect.

Third, the bootstraps narrative implies that everyone can pull a Ben Carson (Carson himself falls for this fallacy). This is like arguing that because some people can run a four-minute mile, everyone can.

Yes, some Americans soar from humble beginnings; more often, the top is occupied by those who, say, were earning $200,000 a year at age 3, in today’s money, as President Trump was.

Opinion | Pull Yourself Up by Bootstraps? Go Ahead, Try It (Published 2020)

It’s impossible, and yet the bootstraps narrative drives out good policy.

www.nytimes.com

I can't take seriously an incensed person (supposedly)_ arguing using metaphors !!!
TOCQUEVILLE might see what you do but he knows how to speak

Among a democratic people, where there is no hereditary wealth, every man works to earn a living, or is born of parents who have worked. The notion of labor is therefore presented to the mind, on every side, as the necessary, natural, and honest condition.

The Americans combine the notions of religion and liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive of one without the other.

Alexis de Tocqueville

 

[Oddball]

only if they were white.

 

[MarathonMike]

those rugged western pioneers were the first to call the cavalry (buffalo soldier or not) when tribes of unfriendly commanches are riding around the place as if they owned it.

i guess after the comanches were all sent to a farm upstate where they can run in the fields and play with the other happy indians they don't need us anymore .

these guys watch a few movies and suddenly become experts on american history.

So western pioneers were pussies, another Democrat displays their bias and ignorance.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I can't take seriously an incensed person (supposedly)_ arguing using metaphors !!!
TOCQUEVILLE might see what you do but he knows how to speak

Among a democratic people, where there is no hereditary wealth, every man works to earn a living, or is born of parents who have worked. The notion of labor is therefore presented to the mind, on every side, as the necessary, natural, and honest condition.

The Americans combine the notions of religion and liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive of one without the other.

View attachment 931466



Alexis de Tocqueville

Somehow while reading his Bible and declaring it metaphor!

"Give me liberty or give me death!" (75). But why does Patrick Henry feel he's come to that point? (If you ask us, we'd rather have life and liberty. It's the best of both worlds, you know?)

Henry's main point, though, is that if the colonies want liberty from Great Britain, they're going to have to fight for it. They've tried and failed at every other means of gaining liberty, and British boots are on the ground.

Boots. Not much "strap" nor "faith" innit!



"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass... It's about learning how to dance in the rain"
-- Vivian Greene

"Nothing fails like prayer" -- Ann Nicol Gaylor

 

[AZrailwhale]

In this country we beieve a lot of nostalgia about our past and how America has come to be. One of the great American Fairy tales is the tale of how one group of people pulled themselves up by the bootstras and made themselves successful. Having complete knowledge of American history should be something we all should strive to achieve. Because no one in this country raised themselves up by therown bootstraps ever. And if we believe that, we might as well believe that Paul Bunyan had a big blue ox and used that Ox and his plow to create the Rocky Mountains.

Pull Yourself Up by Bootstraps? Go Ahead, Try It​

It’s impossible, and yet the bootstraps narrative drives out good policy.

Back in the 1800s, the expression “pull oneself up by the bootstraps” meant the opposite of what it does now. Then it was used mockingly to describe an impossible act.

The problem is that this bootstraps narrative drives out good policy in three ways.

First, it suggests that historically Americans rose purely through rugged individualism — think of the pioneers!

Ah, but why did the pioneers go west? Because of government benefit programs that granted them homesteads! Ten percent of America’s land was given out as homesteads, and perhaps one-quarter of Americans (almost all of them white) owe part of their family wealth to the homestead acts.

Second, the bootstraps narrative often suggests that benefits programs are counterproductive because they foster “dependency.” That may have been a plausible argument a generation ago, but the evidence now indicates that it is incorrect.

Third, the bootstraps narrative implies that everyone can pull a Ben Carson (Carson himself falls for this fallacy). This is like arguing that because some people can run a four-minute mile, everyone can.

Yes, some Americans soar from humble beginnings; more often, the top is occupied by those who, say, were earning $200,000 a year at age 3, in today’s money, as President Trump was.

Opinion | Pull Yourself Up by Bootstraps? Go Ahead, Try It (Published 2020)

It’s impossible, and yet the bootstraps narrative drives out good policy.

www.nytimes.com

It's really funny that you should deny it, I really DID pull myself up by my bootstraps. I worked all my life from the age of about nine, got an adequate education, volunteered for the military to get access to the GI Bill, went back to school, stayed out of trouble, i.e. nothing more serious than a few traffic tickets. Avoided self-destructive behavior like using tobacco, drugs or alcohol. Finally got married in my early thirties had ONE child and worked my way up into the middle class. Now I'm comfortably retired and have the time to read and laugh at your nonsense. I had NO advantages, I was raised by my grandmother without EITHER parent, was always poor, went to poor schools but I still managed to get ahead. I'm not rich or even as successful as I could have been, but I lead a good life and am happy. You claim to be successful, but you are miserable, it shows in your every post.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The problem is that this bootstraps narrative drives out good policy in three ways.

The problem is that it’s a racist rehash of Social Darwinism, the right’s hateful, wrongheaded dogma that poverty and deprivation are the consequence of ‘weakness,’ that those disadvantaged are at fault for their poverty and merit no help or assistance.

It’s one of countless reasons why conservatives are unfit to govern.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The problem is that it’s a racist rehash of Social Darwinism, the right’s hateful, wrongheaded dogma that poverty and deprivation are the consequence of ‘weakness,’ that those disadvantaged are at fault for their poverty and merit no help or assistance.

It’s one of countless reasons why conservatives are unfit to govern.

You and IM2 are both wrong. If any person wants to get ahead and is willing to work they can get ahead.

 

[IM2]

The problem is that it’s a racist rehash of Social Darwinism, the right’s hateful, wrongheaded dogma that poverty and deprivation are the consequence of ‘weakness,’ that those disadvantaged are at fault for their poverty and merit no help or assistance.

It’s one of countless reasons why conservatives are unfit to govern.

They are fine with these fake theories until it's them.

 

[Yarddog]

BS.

Blacks were not considered citizens when the Homestaed act was passed therefore they coud not get homesteads.

As for the so- called Northwest Ordinance

"The Northwest Ordinance prohibited slavery in the Northwest Territory except as a punishment for crimes. However, it also mandated the return of fugitive slaves who escaped into the Northwest Territory from other states where slavery was legal, a precursor to the Fugitive Slave Act."

Northwest Ordinance, Summary, Facts, Significance, 1787, APUSH

Northwest Ordinance of 1787 summary, facts significance, and AP US History (APUSH) review for the third Northwest Ordinance.

www.americanhistorycentral.com

And anything a black person did could be considered a crime. So don't start with that disingenuus mess again. Just face the truth of our history and stop trying to whitewash it.

It affirmed the “utmost good faith” towards the Indians, proclaimed that the Indians’ “lands and property shall never be taken from them without their consent,” and decreed that the “property, rights, and liberty” of Indians “shall never be invaded or disturbed, unless in just and lawful wars authorized by Congress.” These provisions were generally ignored or circumvented as white settlers began driving Native Americans off their lands as early as the 1790s.

Northwest Ordinance, Summary, Facts, Significance, 1787, APUSH

Northwest Ordinance of 1787 summary, facts significance, and AP US History (APUSH) review for the third Northwest Ordinance.

www.americanhistorycentral.com

And the Northwest at that time was Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan and Wisconsin.

"The South practiced slavery before the Civil War — but Northern states like Ohio and Indiana had Black laws, restrictive codes that criminalized and constrained the lives of free Black residents.'

'Until Justice Be Done' Examines Northern Free States' So-Called Black Laws

The South practiced slavery before the Civil War — but Northern states like Ohio and Indiana had Black laws, restrictive codes that criminalized and constrained the lives of free Black residents

www.gpb.org

Stop trying to white wash everything.

Because when the real Northwest was opened up with the Donation and Act, only whites could get land in what is now Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Nevada and Utah.

"The Donation Land Claim Act of 1850, sometimes known as the Donation Land Act, was a statute enacted by the United States Congress in late 1850, intended to promote homestead settlements in the Oregon Territory. It followed the Distribution-Preemption Act 1841. The law, a forerunner of the later Homestead Act, brought thousands of settlers into the new territory, swelling their ranks along the Oregon Trail. 7,437 land patents were issued under the law, which expired in late 1855. The Donation Land Claim Act allowed white men or partial Native Americans (mixed with white) who had arrived in Oregon before 1850 to work on a piece of land for four years and legally claim the land for themselves.

Along with other US land grant legislation, the Donation Land Claim Act discriminated against nonwhite settlers and had the effect of dispossessing land from Native Americans."

Donation Land Claim Act - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Again, stop trying to whitewash history.

Hey well, Im responding to your distorted view. You completely discount that Pioneers had any struggle at all, had everything handed to them. I m not denying the racism and hardship Black Pioneers faced... but the fact is they were also Pioneers as well. They also ended up settling in the west . You dont think they "pulled them selves up"? its just that you want to say all white people in American history sat on their ass while black slaves did everything. Thats a distortion of reality.

 

[marvin martian]

In this country we beieve a lot of nostalgia about our past and how America has come to be. One of the great American Fairy tales is the tale of how one group of people pulled themselves up by the bootstras and made themselves successful. Having complete knowledge of American history should be something we all should strive to achieve. Because no one in this country raised themselves up by therown bootstraps ever. And if we believe that, we might as well believe that Paul Bunyan had a big blue ox and used that Ox and his plow to create the Rocky Mountains.

Pull Yourself Up by Bootstraps? Go Ahead, Try It​

It’s impossible, and yet the bootstraps narrative drives out good policy.

Back in the 1800s, the expression “pull oneself up by the bootstraps” meant the opposite of what it does now. Then it was used mockingly to describe an impossible act.

The problem is that this bootstraps narrative drives out good policy in three ways.

First, it suggests that historically Americans rose purely through rugged individualism — think of the pioneers!

Ah, but why did the pioneers go west? Because of government benefit programs that granted them homesteads! Ten percent of America’s land was given out as homesteads, and perhaps one-quarter of Americans (almost all of them white) owe part of their family wealth to the homestead acts.

Second, the bootstraps narrative often suggests that benefits programs are counterproductive because they foster “dependency.” That may have been a plausible argument a generation ago, but the evidence now indicates that it is incorrect.

Third, the bootstraps narrative implies that everyone can pull a Ben Carson (Carson himself falls for this fallacy). This is like arguing that because some people can run a four-minute mile, everyone can.

Yes, some Americans soar from humble beginnings; more often, the top is occupied by those who, say, were earning $200,000 a year at age 3, in today’s money, as President Trump was.

Opinion | Pull Yourself Up by Bootstraps? Go Ahead, Try It (Published 2020)

It’s impossible, and yet the bootstraps narrative drives out good policy.

www.nytimes.com

You're a racist crybaby, blaming all your many personal failings on white people. Pathetic.

 

[IM2]

Hey well, Im responding to your distorted view. You completely discount that Pioneers had any struggle at all, had everything handed to them. I m not denying the racism and hardship Black Pioneers faced... but the fact is they were also Pioneers as well. They also ended up settling in the west . You dont think they "pulled them selves up"? its just that you want to say all white people in American history sat on their ass while black slaves did everything. Thats a distortion of reality.

I'm not distorting anything. The fact that pioneers struggled is irrelevant to the fact that they got to struggle while blacks weren't even allowed to get the chance to struggle.
After whites were given land as part of the Homestead Act, I am sure they worked very hard to farm that land. After whites were given loans guaranteed by the government to buy homes, I am pretty sure they worked hard to make the payments. I'm sure that white person who got a business loan blacks were denied only because of race, worked hard to make sure that business was successful. While blacks could not get certain jobs because of their race, I'm sure whites who were hired worked hard to remain employed. I'm sure that the whites who got admitted into colleges that did not allow blacks worked hard to get those degrees.

The issue is not how hard whites worked after they got the opportunity. It is the fact they got the chance while others didn’t because of skin color. What has been distorted by right wing whites is how blacks have never worked, that blacks don't want to work and that all blacks want is free stuff. So you now see how that feels and the fact is, that there were whites who did sit on their asses and watched blacks do the work. The fact is that whites WERE given handouts that backs were excluded from.. Blacks struggled and were not given land. So its bs to hear lectures from whites on how to do things or how to not depend on handouts.. Telling us how we should pull ourselves up by the bootstraps when the bootstraps whites had was the government, is bullshit that whites, especially so called conservatives, need to stop.

 

[el midgetron]

I'm not distorting anything. The fact that pioneers struggled is irrelevant to the fact that they got to struggle while blacks weren't even allowed to get the chance to struggle.

IM2 your ancestors, time traveled from the Stone Age to the 19th century. Do you know how much struggling it takes for a civilization to progress from the Stone Age to the 19th century? No you don’t because your ansectors never invested in that kind of struggle. That’s why they remained in the Stone Age basically to this day.

You are implicitly benefiting from the progress Western civilization has made. You have culturally appropriated the white man‘s progress. You are a dim wit who doesn’t deserve what you have.

Even as slaves, your ancestors were getting a BIG step-up.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I'm not distorting anything. The fact that pioneers struggled is irrelevant to the fact that they got to struggle while blacks weren't even allowed to get the chance to struggle.
After whites were given land as part of the Homestead Act, I am sure they worked very hard to farm that land. After whites were given loans guaranteed by the government to buy homes, I am pretty sure they worked hard to make the payments. I'm sure that white person who got a business loan blacks were denied only because of race, worked hard to make sure that business was successful. While blacks could not get certain jobs because of their race, I'm sure whites who were hired worked hard to remain employed. I'm sure that the whites who got admitted into colleges that did not allow blacks worked hard to get those degrees.

The issue is not how hard whites worked after they got the opportunity. It is the fact they got the chance while others didn’t because of skin color. What has been distorted by right wing whites is how blacks have never worked, that blacks don't want to work and that all blacks want is free stuff. So you now see how that feels and the fact is, that there were whites who did sit on their asses and watched blacks do the work. The fact is that whites WERE given handouts that backs were excluded from.. Blacks struggled and were not given land. So its bs to hear lectures from whites on how to do things or how to not depend on handouts.. Telling us how we should pull ourselves up by the bootstraps when the bootstraps whites had was the government, is bullshit that whites, especially so called conservatives, need to stop.

Blacks got land under the Homestead act as well.