The Big Bang

[RetiredGySgt]

I probably would not go as far as some people would by confidently saying that there is no god. Yet, by applying logic and reasoning, it is easy to prove that the Bible is inconsistent.

Logic and reason? Like the logic and reason that goes into claiming nothing exploded into something? That life evolved from rocks? That Logic and reason?

 

[mattskramer]

How do dinosaurs fit into the Bible?

Where did the Dinosaurs fit in the ark, much less the Bible?

God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. See Genesis 1:25

Okay. Then how many species did God supposedly create?

http://animals.about.com/b/2007/08/13/how-many-species-on-earth.htm

The estimated number of animals on our planet falls somewhere in the (vast) range of 3-50 million species.

God had Noah build the ark three hundred cubits, by fifty cubits, by thirty cubits. See Genesis 6:15

How big is a cubit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit

The ark was measured as 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high. Using an 18-inch cubit, this would make the ark about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high, dimensions not exceeded in shipbuilding until the 19th Century.

God had Noah bring two of every creature to the ark. See Genesis 6:19.

Being generous, that would amount to less than 2 cubic feet for each pair of the 3,000,000 species to be taken aboard. Where would the dinosaurs sit during those 40 nights?

 

[mattskramer]

Logic and reason? Like the logic and reason that goes into claiming nothing exploded into something? That life evolved from rocks? That Logic and reason?

Who said that nothing became something? I made no such claim.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Where did the Dinosaurs fit in the ark, much less the Bible?

God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. See Genesis 1:25

Okay. Then how many species did God supposedly create?

http://animals.about.com/b/2007/08/13/how-many-species-on-earth.htm

The estimated number of animals on our planet falls somewhere in the (vast) range of 3-50 million species.

God had Noah build the ark three hundred cubits, by fifty cubits, by thirty cubits. See Genesis 6:15

How big is a cubit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit

The ark was measured as 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high. Using an 18-inch cubit, this would make the ark about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high, dimensions not exceeded in shipbuilding until the 19th Century.

God had Noah bring two of every creature to the ark. See Genesis 6:19.

Being generous, that would amount to less than 2 cubic feet for each pair of the 3,000,000 species to be taken aboard. Where would the dinosaurs sit during those 40 nights?

God works in mysteries ways. Further Noah could only have brought creature indeginious to his local. And the earth did not have to be totally flooded, just that area around the Middle East.

Dinosaurs existed BEFORE man, they would not have been on an ark to begin with.

Remind me how Science has proven the Big Bang or how life REALLY began.

 

[mattskramer]

God works in mysteries ways. Further Noah could only have brought creature indeginious to his local. And the earth did not have to be totally flooded, just that area around the Middle East.

Read the story of the flood again. There is no hint that the flood covered only part of the earth. To the contrary, it suggests that it covered the entire earth.

Genesis 7:17-19 (King James Version)

And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Dinosaurs existed BEFORE man, they would not have been on an ark to begin with.

So the dinosaurs existed before man. Before man came into existence did the Dinosaurs disappear? I thought that God had Adam name all of the animals? Did he name the dinosaurs?

Okay. Let's say that the dinosaurs disappeared before the flood. Where the dinosaurs a mistake? Did God make a mistake when he created the dinosaurs? They became extinct rather quickly. Okay. Fair enough. Let’s remove the dinosaurs and several other animals that god made that became extinct before the flood. I still doubt that all of the remaining species would have found room in the ark. We are talking about millions of species that are alive today. Each species survived the flood.

Remind me how Science has proven the Big Bang or how life REALLY began.

I said before that I don’t put much faith in the big bang. I prefer the pulsating universe. Yet, I never said that science has answered all questions. I am merely contending that the Bible is fallible.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Read the story of the flood again. There is no hint that the flood covered only part of the earth. To the contrary, it suggests that it covered the entire earth.

Genesis 7:17-19 (King James Version)

And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.



So the dinosaurs existed before man. Before man came into existence did the Dinosaurs disappear? I thought that God had Adam name all of the animals? Did he name the dinosaurs?

Okay. Let's say that the dinosaurs disappeared before the flood. Where the dinosaurs a mistake? Did God make a mistake when he created the dinosaurs? They became extinct rather quickly. Okay. Fair enough. Let’s remove the dinosaurs and several other animals that god made that became extinct before the flood. I still doubt that all of the remaining species would have found room in the ark. We are talking about millions of species that are alive today. Each species survived the flood.

Remind me how Science has proven the Big Bang or how life REALLY began.

I said before that I don’t put much faith in the big bang. I prefer the pulsating universe. Yet, I never said that science has answered all questions. I am merely contending that the Bible is fallible.[/QUOTE]

Man wrote it, it has been rewritten from one language to another many times. Of course it will have some inconsitances in it. Further faith requires nothing be provable. No faith, no free will.

 

[mattskramer]

I said before that I don’t put much faith in the big bang. I prefer the pulsating universe. Yet, I never said that science has answered all questions. I am merely contending that the Bible is fallible.

Man wrote it, it has been rewritten from one language to another many times. Of course it will have some inconsitances in it. Further faith requires nothing be provable. No faith, no free will.

I just knocked down one story (barely a chapter in one book of the Bible) – showing that it would be practically impossible to be taken literally if you apply geometry and biology to it. If more Bible passages are shown to be inconsistent or scientifically absurd, doesn’t it leave you with less upon which to support your faith or belief? I think that Shogun is a little bit “over the top” and borderline offensive even for my taste but if the Bible gets figuratively cut into little pieces, what do you have left but the “great spaghetti”?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Man wrote it, it has been rewritten from one language to another many times. Of course it will have some inconsitances in it. Further faith requires nothing be provable. No faith, no free will.

I just knocked down one story (barely a chapter in one book of the Bible) – showing that it would be practically impossible to be taken literally if you apply geometry and biology to it. If more Bible passages are shown to be inconsistent or scientifically absurd, doesn’t it leave you with less upon which to support your faith or belief? I think that Shogun is a little bit “over the top” and borderline offensive even for my taste but if the Bible gets figuratively cut into little pieces, what do you have left but the “great spaghetti”?[/QUOTE]

You have Faith. In Shogun's case his faith is invested in science or rather that part of science he wants to believe. I suspect you have faith in very little, personally.

It is a simple process, you PRAY and look for answers from with in. For me there is no doubt that God exists. NONE. And I accept that the Bible is an important work of his. It is information passed through man and time to help those that believe.

The Bible can be used and misused just as man can do with science or any other thing.

 

[Foxfyre]

I just knocked down one story (barely a chapter in one book of the Bible) – showing that it would be practically impossible to be taken literally if you apply geometry and biology to it. If more Bible passages are shown to be inconsistent or scientifically absurd, doesn’t it leave you with less upon which to support your faith or belief? I think that Shogun is a little bit “over the top” and borderline offensive even for my taste but if the Bible gets figuratively cut into little pieces, what do you have left but the “great spaghetti”?

Was your 'test' chapter history? Allegory? Prophecy? Poetry? Symbolism? A recitation of a vision? A theological statement? It is important to know these things when assessing the credibility of the Bible. Everything in the Bible was not written or expected to be taken literally. Even that which the writers believed to be true was filtered through their understanding, experience, culture, and was restricted by the limitations of the words they had to express concepts and impressions. It has to be read through their eyes, not ours.

 

[Taomon]

Where did the Dinosaurs fit in the ark, much less the Bible?

God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. See Genesis 1:25

Okay. Then how many species did God supposedly create?

http://animals.about.com/b/2007/08/13/how-many-species-on-earth.htm

The estimated number of animals on our planet falls somewhere in the (vast) range of 3-50 million species.

God had Noah build the ark three hundred cubits, by fifty cubits, by thirty cubits. See Genesis 6:15

How big is a cubit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit

The ark was measured as 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high. Using an 18-inch cubit, this would make the ark about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high, dimensions not exceeded in shipbuilding until the 19th Century.

God had Noah bring two of every creature to the ark. See Genesis 6:19.

Being generous, that would amount to less than 2 cubic feet for each pair of the 3,000,000 species to be taken aboard. Where would the dinosaurs sit during those 40 nights?

Nowhere because dinosaurs were already extinct by the time Noah was building his yacht. What do you suppose the survival rate of a Hebrew village would have been if a pack of velociraptors lived in the vicinity?

 

[Gunny]

There is no proof other than the expansion of the universe. And there is no proof that God exists. Your insistence on proof is futile and a useless excuse to not find common ground.

What expansion of the universe? Another scientific theory that requires belief. To prove expansion, a center would have to be located. All science can prove is that what is within the limitation of Man's observation appears to be expanding.

Stating that proof does not exist is not insisting on proof. I am merely holding science to the same standard the science only worshippers hold creationism.

 

[Gunny]

uh, how is biblical creation any different in it's assumtions? Can YOU tell me where your god came from? Can RGS? You ASSUME that your god simply WAS and yet try to point a finger at science when it can't suggest a pre-big bang timeline?

Maybe you'll put your origin myth up to the same logical test, eh? If you ask what was before the big bang then let me ask, WHO created your god or where did he come from or come to be? You see, physical evidence in science doesnt get to backpeddle with "uh, it's gods plan derrr he was the alpha and omega, beginning and end".


Who says the the big bang CREATED anything? It's the farthest back in the SCIENTIFIC explanation of origin as evidence can support. Surely you must realize that SCIENCE will always be open to a pre-bang hypothesis if the EVIDENCE (not faith) supports such, eh? A big Bang does not insist that it is, of itself, the absolute beginning of anything... Merely the beginning according to the support of PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. So, Im afraid that it's YOU who is proposing that some ghost in the sky created all of this out of thin air....


*poof*

I have never contended that Bibilical creation was anything other than what it is. Your attempt to reverse positions and take the offensive is obvious, and noted.

There is no actual physical, scientific evidence to support the Big Bang. THAT is where you are wrong. It is a theory, period. Guesswork that requires faith to make it so.

So in actuality, I am proposing nothing more or less plausible than what YOU are.

 

[Gunny]

You're really annoying sometimes.

What you see as giving up and quitting, I see as pulling out of an argument that does nothing but allow the debasement God.

If you don't believe, you don't.

It always gets twisted to Creationsits trying to force their views on others. I could care less what others choose to believe.

The extremists who wish to insult, demean, and or call names for what others believe are the ones who have issues and not just a little self doubt. Why else would they try so hard to prove the other wrong?

 

[onedomino]

There is no actual physical, scientific evidence to support the Big Bang.

There is no "physical, scientific evidence" that proves the Big Bang, but there is lots of evidence that supports it; evidence that continues to grow stronger as new data from Hubble, Sptizer, VLA, and Mauna Kea are collected and analyzed. Without discussing the mathematics, and from earlier in this thread:

Some of the observational evidence for the Big Bang:

In 1929 Edwin Hubble (after whom the famous telescope is named) discovered that the Universe is expanding. In particular he discovered that all galaxies (except the local group) are receding from us at a rate that is proportionate to their distance. The further they are away, the faster they are receding.

Data indicates that our position in the Universe is not special. We speak of the homogeneity of the Universe. That is, the composition, or the structure, of the Universe is the same no matter the position of the observer.

The Universe is isotropic. That is, the distribution of matter and energy seems to be the same no matter which direction an observation takes. The sky looks the same in every direction to one part in 100,000.

Radio source data and quasar counts indicate that the Universe has evolved over time. Very deep space measurements show that the structure of the Universe has changed over time.

The existence of uniform background blackbody radiation demonstrates that the Universe evolved from a dense state of uniform temperature. This empirical data eliminated the Steady State theory from serious consideration.

The current distribution of light isotopes of hydrogen, helium, and lithium agrees remarkably well with that distribution mathematically predicted by the Big Bang theory.

 

[mattskramer]

Was your 'test' chapter history? Allegory? Prophecy? Poetry? Symbolism? A recitation of a vision? A theological statement? It is important to know these things when assessing the credibility of the Bible. Everything in the Bible was not written or expected to be taken literally. Even that which the writers believed to be true was filtered through their understanding, experience, culture, and was restricted by the limitations of the words they had to express concepts and impressions. It has to be read through their eyes, not ours.

Wow. What a cop out. If something seems to say what you don’t want it to say, call it an allegory, poetry or symbolism. Some thins are not to be taken literally. Okay, what passages are we to take literally. Was Jesus really the savior or was story of him merely poetry and symbolism for peace and passivism? If things were filtered through human bias, then is homosexuality really a sin? Here is one person’s way to interpret the Bible and conclude that loving homosexual relationships are not sins:

http://purplepew.org/biblical-dots/connecting-the-biblical-dots

I guess that each person can interpret the Bible as he sees fit. If you don’t like something, excuse it as a writer’s personal understanding, am allegory, poetry, symbolism, or whatever. Yet, in the end, aren’t you left with nothing but an imaginative book?

 

[onedomino]

What expansion of the universe? Another scientific theory that requires belief. To prove expansion, a center would have to be located. All science can prove is that what is within the limitation of Man's observation appears to be expanding.

The observational evidence for the expansion of the Universe is quite conclusive. I suggest reading about Cepheid variable stars and Hubble's 1929 discovery that the Universe is expanding. It is incorrect that proving the expansion of the Universe requires a center. Space is curved, as outlined by General Relativity. Here is a two dimensional analogy on a curved plane: partially inflate a balloon and draw dots on the surface to represent galaxies. Now further inflate the balloon. The dots are farther apart. What is the center of the curved two dimensional plane? There is none. The same holds true for curved four dimensional spacetime. The geometry of four dimensional space-time is more complex than a spherical object with a center. General Relativity describes that space-time itself, and not just objects within space-time, is curved.

 

[mattskramer]

Nowhere because dinosaurs were already extinct by the time Noah was building his yacht. What do you suppose the survival rate of a Hebrew village would have been if a pack of velociraptors lived in the vicinity?

I was already corrected in that and responded. Even if you remove dinosaurs from the equation, there would still be practically not enough room in the ark.

 

[mattskramer]

It always gets twisted to Creationsits trying to force their views on others. I could care less what others choose to believe.

The extremists who wish to insult, demean, and or call names for what others believe are the ones who have issues and not just a little self doubt. Why else would they try so hard to prove the other wrong?

I agree and I have witnessed such behavior in Christians and atheists.

 

[Taomon]

I was already corrected in that and responded. Even if you remove dinosaurs from the equation, there would still be practically not enough room in the ark.

I read a story from an old Indian legend that a boy was commanded by the gods to build a water tight capsule and collect the seed from all manner of beast and plant. Then a flood happened and the boy repopulated the world.

That would be more feasible.

 

[mattskramer]

I read a story from an old Indian legend that a boy was commanded by the gods to build a water tight capsule and collect the seed from all manner of beast and plant. Then a flood happened and the boy repopulated the world.

That would be more feasible.

Yep. Here are other versions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)