The '67 Borders.

[Roudy]

You always seem to also ignore the fact that the Arabs threatened genocide on the Jews saying that "if the Jewish State becomes a fact, we will drive the Jews to the sea"
They implemented their actions when they invaded the tiny state of Israel. What is the legality of that ?

Show me a 1948 map of Israel and where the borders were crossed.

We already did that before. Not our fault if you like to repeat lies hoping you won't get caught again. Why don't you come up with some new material?

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

The Map, which the Permanent UN Observer for Palestine recognizes, is Annex A, to GA Resolution 181(II), used as the basis for the application to the UN and the subsequent recognition as a member.

LINK: ---> Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly,
dated 29 November 1947​

Please note that there is no disclaimer as an annex to the resolution where the narrative of the boundary is addressed.

You always seem to also ignore the fact that the Arabs threatened genocide on the Jews saying that "if the Jewish State becomes a fact, we will drive the Jews to the sea"
They implemented their actions when they invaded the tiny state of Israel. What is the legality of that ?

Show me a 1948 map of Israel and where the borders were crossed.

We already did that before. Not our fault if you like to repeat lies hoping you won't get caught again. Why don't you come up with some new material?

(COMMENT)

The legitimacy of this map is recognized by all parties. The Palestinian acceptance is found as UN A/53/879 S/1999/334 25 March 1999

LINK: ---> Letter dated 25 March 1999 from the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General

I hope this helps.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

"...Palestinian acceptance is found as UN A/53/879 S/1999/334 25 March 1999..."

Game... Set... Match...

 

[P F Tinmore]

et al,

The Map, which the Permanent UN Observer for Palestine recognizes, is Annex A, to GA Resolution 181(II), used as the basis for the application to the UN and the subsequent recognition as a member.

LINK: ---> Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly,
dated 29 November 1947​

Please note that there is no disclaimer as an annex to the resolution where the narrative of the boundary is addressed.

Show me a 1948 map of Israel and where the borders were crossed.

We already did that before. Not our fault if you like to repeat lies hoping you won't get caught again. Why don't you come up with some new material?

(COMMENT)

The legitimacy of this map is recognized by all parties. The Palestinian acceptance is found as UN A/53/879 S/1999/334 25 March 1999

LINK: ---> Letter dated 25 March 1999 from the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General

I hope this helps.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will agree with Israel on this one. Resolution 181 was stillborn.

 

[toastman]

et al,

The Map, which the Permanent UN Observer for Palestine recognizes, is Annex A, to GA Resolution 181(II), used as the basis for the application to the UN and the subsequent recognition as a member.

LINK: ---> Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly,
dated 29 November 1947​

Please note that there is no disclaimer as an annex to the resolution where the narrative of the boundary is addressed.

We already did that before. Not our fault if you like to repeat lies hoping you won't get caught again. Why don't you come up with some new material?

(COMMENT)

The legitimacy of this map is recognized by all parties. The Palestinian acceptance is found as UN A/53/879 S/1999/334 25 March 1999

LINK: ---> Letter dated 25 March 1999 from the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General

I hope this helps.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will agree with Israel on this one. Resolution 181 was stillborn.

Confused with this statement, can you elaborate a bit please .

 

[P F Tinmore]

et al,

The Map, which the Permanent UN Observer for Palestine recognizes, is Annex A, to GA Resolution 181(II), used as the basis for the application to the UN and the subsequent recognition as a member.

LINK: ---> Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly,
dated 29 November 1947​

Please note that there is no disclaimer as an annex to the resolution where the narrative of the boundary is addressed.


(COMMENT)

The legitimacy of this map is recognized by all parties. The Palestinian acceptance is found as UN A/53/879 S/1999/334 25 March 1999

LINK: ---> Letter dated 25 March 1999 from the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General

I hope this helps.

Most Respectfully,
R

I will agree with Israel on this one. Resolution 181 was stillborn.

Confused with this statement, can you elaborate a bit please .

It was a proposal that was not approved by the Zionists, the Palestinians, or the Security Council. It was dead in the water from the beginning.

 

[toastman]

Oh ok, gotcha

 

[P F Tinmore]

et al,

The Map, which the Permanent UN Observer for Palestine recognizes, is Annex A, to GA Resolution 181(II), used as the basis for the application to the UN and the subsequent recognition as a member.

LINK: ---> Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly,
dated 29 November 1947​

Please note that there is no disclaimer as an annex to the resolution where the narrative of the boundary is addressed.

Show me a 1948 map of Israel and where the borders were crossed.

We already did that before. Not our fault if you like to repeat lies hoping you won't get caught again. Why don't you come up with some new material?

(COMMENT)

The legitimacy of this map is recognized by all parties. The Palestinian acceptance is found as UN A/53/879 S/1999/334 25 March 1999

LINK: ---> Letter dated 25 March 1999 from the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General

I hope this helps.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thanks for the map.

Look at the legend, then follow the international boundaries on the map.

 

[RoccoR]

PF Tinmore, et al,

The Map is an Annex to GA Resolution 181(II) before it was presented for acceptance or rejection to the Jewish and Arab representatives. So it shows the boundaries pertaining to the Mandate of Palestine. The colors [Green (Jewish State) and Orange (Arab State)] show the areas being recommended in the Partition.

The Map, which the Permanent UN Observer for Palestine recognizes, is Annex A, to GA Resolution 181(II), used as the basis for the application to the UN and the subsequent recognition as a member.

Please note that there is no disclaimer as an annex to the resolution where the narrative of the boundary is addressed.

We already did that before. Not our fault if you like to repeat lies hoping you won't get caught again. Why don't you come up with some new material?

(COMMENT)

The legitimacy of this map is recognized by all parties. The Palestinian acceptance is found as UN A/53/879 S/1999/334 25 March 1999

LINK: ---> Letter dated 25 March 1999 from the Permanent Observer of Palestine to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General

I hope this helps.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thanks for the map.

Look at the legend, then follow the international boundaries on the map.

(COMMENT)

Yes, the map shows the Mandate boundary since it was created prior to acceptance. But it also shows how the boundaries for the new states if accepted.

However, with the outbreak of War initiated by the Hostile Arab/Palestinian (HoAP) coalition in 1948, control and boundaries have jumped around. To the UN, by 1967, the boundaries were a series of disputed lines.

You have to study the Maps closely. Most of Israeli Territory is bounded by International Boundary Lines, based on Treaties (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan) and Armistices (Syria). We could talk about the nuances about the Treaty with Lebanon and the Armistice with Syria, but that is not important to this debate. What is important --- is the fact that it is not Israel that is bounded by Palestine, but the fact that the Gaza Strip and West Bank are outside the boundaries of any other nation and inside Israel.

The entire dispute is over boundaries in the short sense, and sovereignty in the long run. It was the fact that the HoAP did not recognize Israel (in 1948) and tried to use force to overturn its right to self-determination (independence), that the concept of Israel's right to exist was raised. The aggressor HoAP was the first to break all the international laws, and when the use of force failed, the HoAP began the victimization campaign to pretend that Israel was the aggressor; a foreign force which invaded the make-believe country of Palestine.

There is no question that the Security Wall, built on West Bank Territory, over steps the customary law. And there is no question that the settlements are in violation of the customary law. Yes, the Palestinians have grievances. But the circumstances surrounding the grievances came to be a result and direct consequence of HoAP initiatives, instigating and encouraging the use of force to resolve disputes. Dirty hands all the way around.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco,

I was looking at this smokescreen you posted for a map. This is the map with the disclaimer on the accuracy of land and borders. You asked me to study the map closely. I did. Did you?

The map shows armistice lines (dash dash dash) around Gaza and the West Bank. OK, but there are also armistice lines that mostly follow the international borders between Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Palestine. These are not shown. Why?

The map shows the boundary of the former Palestine Mandate. (dash dot dash) The term "former Palestine Mandate" is an Israeli propaganda term. It seems strange that the UN would use this term when in the 1949 UN armistice agreements the term "Palestine" was used. Why would they change the term used?

The map also shows international boundaries. (dash dot dot dash)

Here is where things get really confusing. Remember that the 1949 UN armistice agreements took place after resolution 181, after foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine, after the end of the mandate, and after the 1948 war.

The northern part of the map uses dash dot dash. This would mean the boundaries between the former mandate Palestine with Lebanon and Syria. However, the armistice agreements call these the international boundaries between Palestine with Lebanon and Syria. How/when/why was this changed? The map still calls that territory Israel even when they call the boundaries Palestinian???

The southern part of the map uses dash dot dot dash, international borders. Assuming they mean those to be Israel's borders then we have Palestinian borders to the north and Israeli borders to the south. What would the middle be called?

For Israel to claim those borders it would have to acquire that land. Both the Egyptian and the Jordanian armistice agreements specifically call that territory Palestine.

 

[toastman]

Rocco,

I was looking at this smokescreen you posted for a map. This is the map with the disclaimer on the accuracy of land and borders. You asked me to study the map closely. I did. Did you?

The map shows armistice lines (dash dash dash) around Gaza and the West Bank. OK, but there are also armistice lines that mostly follow the international borders between Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Palestine. These are not shown. Why?

The map shows the boundary of the former Palestine Mandate. (dash dot dash) The term "former Palestine Mandate" is an Israeli propaganda term. It seems strange that the UN would use this term when in the 1949 UN armistice agreements the term "Palestine" was used. Why would they change the term used?

The map also shows international boundaries. (dash dot dot dash)

Here is where things get really confusing. Remember that the 1949 UN armistice agreements took place after resolution 181, after foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine, after the end of the mandate, and after the 1948 war.

The northern part of the map uses dash dot dash. This would mean the boundaries between the former mandate Palestine with Lebanon and Syria. However, the armistice agreements call these the international boundaries between Palestine with Lebanon and Syria. How/when/why was this changed? The map still calls that territory Israel even when they call the boundaries Palestinian???

The southern part of the map uses dash dot dot dash, international borders. Assuming they mean those to be Israel's borders then we have Palestinian borders to the north and Israeli borders to the south. What would the middle be called?

For Israel to claim those borders it would have to acquire that land. Both the Egyptian and the Jordanian armistice agreements specifically call that territory Palestine.

Got anything to back up your usual bullshit claims that it is a Israeli Propaganda term?
As for the second statement that I bolded, can you back that up as well ?

 

[toastman]

Concerning the 1949 Armistice Agreement:

The 1949 Armistice Agreements are a set of agreements signed during 1949 between Israel and neighboring Egypt,[1] Lebanon,[2] Jordan,[3] and Syria

1949 Armistice Agreements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Weird, no mention of 'Palestine' there ? Why is that ?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes,

Rocco,

I was looking at this smokescreen you posted for a map. This is the map with the disclaimer on the accuracy of land and borders. You asked me to study the map closely. I did. Did you?

(COMMENT)

Yes, I did. The Map was made for a specific consumer. It was made for me to use in the discussion. The Map belongs to a narrative to a UN Document, as I mentioned. The disclaimer is made on the basis of resolution (True Border Map are made at 1:50000 Scale or less, with GPS markers). The disclaimer if for the Officer of the Secretariat (an Admin Office).

The map shows armistice lines (dash dash dash) around Gaza and the West Bank. OK, but there are also armistice lines that mostly follow the international borders between Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Palestine. These are not shown. Why?

(COMMENT)

The Peace Agreement, which sets the International Boundary between Lebanon and Israel, set the boundary in terms of the former Mandate Boundary. It is not a true treaty even though the agreement says (ARTICLE I) "They consider the existing international boundary between Israel and Lebanon inviolable."

The Armistice Line to the East of the Golan Heights is not marked on the map. It is managed by the UNDOF and is adjusted from time to time. But the original border of Syria was set (again) by the former Mandate.

The Eastern Border (with Jordan) and the Southern Border (with Egypt) are marked as "international boundaries."

The map shows the boundary of the former Palestine Mandate. (dash dot dash) The term "former Palestine Mandate" is an Israeli propaganda term. It seems strange that the UN would use this term when in the 1949 UN armistice agreements the term "Palestine" was used. Why would they change the term used?

The map also shows international boundaries. (dash dot dot dash)

(COMMENT)

Israel did not make the Map. There is no "Israeli Propaganda" imbedded in the Map. The UN called it as they see it. The term "Palestine" was for years the short title for the "Mandate of Palestine." When various factions began trying to make it mean something that it wasn't intended to mean, they gradually became more precise.

However, the armistice agreements call these the international boundaries between Palestine with Lebanon and Syria. How/when/why was this changed? The map still calls that territory Israel even when they call the boundaries Palestinian???

(COMMENT)

Like I said, the are becoming more precise so that some people don't read too much into the word.

The boundaries are not with Palestine (that is your mistake).

5. Also reiterates its strong support, as recalled in all its previous relevant resolutions, for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally recognized borders, as contemplated by the Israeli-Lebanese General Armistice Agreement of 23 March 1949;

SOURCE:http://www.securitycouncilreport.org/atf/cf/{65BFCF9B-6D27-4E9C-8CD3-CF6E4FF96FF9}/PKO SRES1701.pdf

For Israel to claim those borders it would have to acquire that land. Both the Egyptian and the Jordanian armistice agreements specifically call that territory Palestine.

(COMMENT)

There is no active Armistice Agreements between either Israel and Egypt or Palestine.

Article II

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel in the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.

SOURCE: Peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt - Non-UN document (26 March 1979)

Article 3 - International Boundary

1. The international boundary between Israel and Jordan is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I(a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and co-ordinates specified therein.

2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Israel and Jordan, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.​

SOURCE: A/50/73-S/1995/83 of 27 January 1995

In both cases, the Mandate is used as a reference, but is not establishing a State of Palestine. The border is between Israel and Egypt/Jordan - respectively.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rocco,

I was looking at this smokescreen you posted for a map. This is the map with the disclaimer on the accuracy of land and borders. You asked me to study the map closely. I did. Did you?

The map shows armistice lines (dash dash dash) around Gaza and the West Bank. OK, but there are also armistice lines that mostly follow the international borders between Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Palestine. These are not shown. Why?

The map shows the boundary of the former Palestine Mandate. (dash dot dash) The term "former Palestine Mandate" is an Israeli propaganda term. It seems strange that the UN would use this term when in the 1949 UN armistice agreements the term "Palestine" was used. Why would they change the term used?

The map also shows international boundaries. (dash dot dot dash)

Here is where things get really confusing. Remember that the 1949 UN armistice agreements took place after resolution 181, after foreigners declared the state of Israel inside Palestine, after the end of the mandate, and after the 1948 war.

The northern part of the map uses dash dot dash. This would mean the boundaries between the former mandate Palestine with Lebanon and Syria. However, the armistice agreements call these the international boundaries between Palestine with Lebanon and Syria. How/when/why was this changed? The map still calls that territory Israel even when they call the boundaries Palestinian???

The southern part of the map uses dash dot dot dash, international borders. Assuming they mean those to be Israel's borders then we have Palestinian borders to the north and Israeli borders to the south. What would the middle be called?

For Israel to claim those borders it would have to acquire that land. Both the Egyptian and the Jordanian armistice agreements specifically call that territory Palestine.

Got anything to back up your usual bullshit claims that it is a Israeli Propaganda term?
As for the second statement that I bolded, can you back that up as well ?

Excellent question. Thank you for asking.

The mandate system was created so that developed countries, like Britain, could be assigned to newly created countries, like Palestine, to "render administrative assistance and advice" for the purpose of moving them to independence. A mandate was an administrative position not an ownership position. It had no land or borders of its own. It merely worked inside the existing borders of the country it was assigned to.

Israel has always denied the existence of Palestine and the Palestinians. Israel has always implied that the mandate was Palestine. That there was no country separate from the mandate. That when the mandate left there would be nothing but land up for grabs.

Of course the armistice agreements prove this to be a lie but Israel and its supporters still use the term "former mandated Palestine" to push their agenda.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The term "Palestine" was for years the short title for the "Mandate of Palestine."

And the "Mandate of Palestine" was the mandate of what?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

Yes, --- of what?

The term "Palestine" was for years the short title for the "Mandate of Palestine."

And the "Mandate of Palestine" was the mandate of what?

(COMMENT)

Actually, the territory of "Palestine" was undefined when it was transferred by treaty to the Allied Powers. Both today's Syria and Lebanon (by Treaty - called Syria) and today's Iraq (by Treaty called Mesopotamia) were fairly defined (but later laid-out by survey); known for that time period. But Palestine was the left-over land (by Treaty - the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers).

Originally, the Title of the Mandate of Palestine included the Phrase: Mandate for Palestine - together with a Note by the Secretary General relating to its application to the Territory Known as Trans-Jordan - Under the Provisions of Article 25.

Even as discussions with the Senior Regional Arab Leadership (1919) disclosed, prior to the creation of the Mandate, the boundaries were undefined. It was agreed that a Commission would establish the boundaries so the Balfour Declaration could be implemented.

Most Respectfully,
R