The '67 Borders.

[MHunterB]

George, GS Patton was no Jew. He's the one who told his troops "your job is to make sure it's the other poor dumb bastard who dies for his country"......

"If someone's got to die, it may as well be the other fellow" - that's my view as an American. You seem to be suggesting there's something wrong with that POV, or at least with Jews holding it while Palestinians also do?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Define "economy of the West Bank"?

BDS is weakening the Jewish stranglehold over West Bank resources:

"The campaign for boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) is shaped by a rights-based approach and highlights the three broad sections of the Palestinian people: the refugees, those under military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and Palestinians in Israel.

"The call urges various forms of boycott against Israel until it meets its obligations under international law by:

"Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantling the Wall;

"Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194."

Introducing the BDS Movement | BDSmovement.net

Well let me make it simple for you. Judea and Samaria (changed to the West Bank) is a place where Jewish Businesses are located. Some of these businesses are store which offer a variety of products. BDS is boycotting by not buying these products and .encouraging people and other businesses not to buy them , correct? In other words,trying to help with the failure of that business.
Well since there is a direct correlation between the success or failure of businesses and the status of an economy, it is clear that BDS is attempting to harm the Economy of the West Bank, withing the Jewish Community, in an effort to get Israel to withdraw from The West Bank and tear down the wall (which has saved countless lives)

Judea and Samaria are BCE mythology.
The Occupied Territories are CE Fourth Geneva.
Those "Jews" or "Russians" or "Poles" running Jewish Businesses on the West Bank are war criminals.
There's a more direct correlation between the illegality of an Occupying Power transferring its civilian population into territory it controls and the moral failure of the Jewish state.
BTW, regarding that wall (which has saved countless lives) why is the life of a Jew worth more than his/her victim?

What about the illegal settlement built in Najd? Najd was a Palestinian farm community whose founding predated the Ottoman empire.

Najd was attacked by Israel's military and the civilians were driven out. The village was destroyed and an Israeli settlement was built on its land. Israel then filled the settlement with immigrant settlers.

 

[MHunterB]

Tinny, so what about it? You conveniently 'forgot' to include any bit of context there.....which alone makes your (entirely one-sided) narrative suspect.

You're leaving out a hell of a lot of information there!

 

[toastman]

Tinny, so what about it? You conveniently 'forgot' to include any bit of context there.....which alone makes your (entirely one-sided) narrative suspect.

You're leaving out a hell of a lot of information there!

As usual

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinny, so what about it? You conveniently 'forgot' to include any bit of context there.....which alone makes your (entirely one-sided) narrative suspect.

You're leaving out a hell of a lot of information there!

What else do you want to know?

 

[MHunterB]

From Wiki, a few basic facts:

"On November 29, 1947, the UN voted to approve the Partition Plan for Palestine for ending the British Mandate and creating an Arab state and a Jewish state. In the immediate aftermath of the United Nations' approval of the Partition plan, the Jewish community expressed joy, while the Arab community expressed discontent.[13][14] On the day after the vote, a spate of Arab attacks left at least eight Jews dead, one in Tel Aviv by sniper fire, and seven in ambushes on civilian buses that were claimed to be retaliations for a Lehi raid ten days earlier.[15] Shooting, stoning, and rioting continued apace in the following days. Fighting began almost as soon as the plan was approved, beginning with the Arab Jerusalem Riots of 1947. Soon after, violence broke out and became more and more prevalent. Murders, reprisals, and counter-reprisals came fast on each other's heels, resulting in dozens of victims killed on both sides in the process. The sanguinary impasse persisted as no force intervened to put a stop to the escalating cycles of violence."

I hope that people will remember the part in bold above: it's been the root of the problem since the Mandate. People who are continually criticizing Israel for allegedly ignoring 'International Law' would do well to remember that it was that same UN and 'International Law' which divided the Mandate into two potential States.

If it's required to abide by 'International Law' - then it's required of Arabs, of Palestinians, that they do so also. But the Arabs have not.

And while Tinny and others who pretend to respect 'International Law' continue to castigate ONLY Israel among all the belligerent parties, it certainly looks like a double standard of hypocrisy rather than some 'point' to be considered.

 

[P F Tinmore]

From Wiki, a few basic facts:

"On November 29, 1947, the UN voted to approve the Partition Plan for Palestine for ending the British Mandate and creating an Arab state and a Jewish state. In the immediate aftermath of the United Nations' approval of the Partition plan, the Jewish community expressed joy, while the Arab community expressed discontent.[13][14] On the day after the vote, a spate of Arab attacks left at least eight Jews dead, one in Tel Aviv by sniper fire, and seven in ambushes on civilian buses that were claimed to be retaliations for a Lehi raid ten days earlier.[15] Shooting, stoning, and rioting continued apace in the following days. Fighting began almost as soon as the plan was approved, beginning with the Arab Jerusalem Riots of 1947. Soon after, violence broke out and became more and more prevalent. Murders, reprisals, and counter-reprisals came fast on each other's heels, resulting in dozens of victims killed on both sides in the process. The sanguinary impasse persisted as no force intervened to put a stop to the escalating cycles of violence."

I hope that people will remember the part in bold above: it's been the root of the problem since the Mandate. People who are continually criticizing Israel for allegedly ignoring 'International Law' would do well to remember that it was that same UN and 'International Law' which divided the Mandate into two potential States.

If it's required to abide by 'International Law' - then it's required of Arabs, of Palestinians, that they do so also. But the Arabs have not.

And while Tinny and others who pretend to respect 'International Law' continue to castigate ONLY Israel among all the belligerent parties, it certainly looks like a double standard of hypocrisy rather than some 'point' to be considered.

The situation in Palestine

The United Nations partition resolution did not provide a solution to the Palestine problem, and violence increased. In protest against the partition of their country, the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee called for a general strike. Palestinian-Jewish clashes proliferated with Jewish paramilitary forces operating more freely as British forces started their withdrawal. Sabotage, attacks on military installations and the capture of British arms by these groups became a major feature of the Palestinian scene, along with a proliferation of Jewish-Arab clashes. With events moving towards a major armed confrontation, Great Britain announced that it would terminate the Mandate on 15 May 1948, several months before the time envisaged in the United Nations plan.

The Security Council could not take any effective decision after discussing General Assembly resolution 181 (II) (the partition resolution) in December 1947. In March 1948 the United States draft proposal to enable the Council to act on the partition resolution failed, and the Council only called for an end to the violence in Palestine. Under the pressure of rapidly moving developments, the partition resolution did not even reach the stage of routine reference to the Sixth Committee for an examination of its legal effects and implications. The United Nations Commission on Palestine, established by resolution 181 (II), could not move to Jerusalem, and only could hold consultations in New York. The formation of the armed militia, intended to assist the Commission in its functions in Palestine, became impracticable in the face of the accelerated British withdrawal in a deteriorating situation where the casualty toll in the first three months after the approval of the partition resolution was 869 dead and 1,909 injured. 65/

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study, part II: 1947-1977 (30 June 1979)

Indeed, the partition plan was really a stupid thing to do. It created many problems and was abandoned as unworkable. It was never implemented. It created no states.

 

[toastman]

From Wiki, a few basic facts:

"On November 29, 1947, the UN voted to approve the Partition Plan for Palestine for ending the British Mandate and creating an Arab state and a Jewish state. In the immediate aftermath of the United Nations' approval of the Partition plan, the Jewish community expressed joy, while the Arab community expressed discontent.[13][14] On the day after the vote, a spate of Arab attacks left at least eight Jews dead, one in Tel Aviv by sniper fire, and seven in ambushes on civilian buses that were claimed to be retaliations for a Lehi raid ten days earlier.[15] Shooting, stoning, and rioting continued apace in the following days. Fighting began almost as soon as the plan was approved, beginning with the Arab Jerusalem Riots of 1947. Soon after, violence broke out and became more and more prevalent. Murders, reprisals, and counter-reprisals came fast on each other's heels, resulting in dozens of victims killed on both sides in the process. The sanguinary impasse persisted as no force intervened to put a stop to the escalating cycles of violence."

I hope that people will remember the part in bold above: it's been the root of the problem since the Mandate. People who are continually criticizing Israel for allegedly ignoring 'International Law' would do well to remember that it was that same UN and 'International Law' which divided the Mandate into two potential States.

If it's required to abide by 'International Law' - then it's required of Arabs, of Palestinians, that they do so also. But the Arabs have not.

And while Tinny and others who pretend to respect 'International Law' continue to castigate ONLY Israel among all the belligerent parties, it certainly looks like a double standard of hypocrisy rather than some 'point' to be considered.

The situation in Palestine

The United Nations partition resolution did not provide a solution to the Palestine problem, and violence increased. In protest against the partition of their country, the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee called for a general strike. Palestinian-Jewish clashes proliferated with Jewish paramilitary forces operating more freely as British forces started their withdrawal. Sabotage, attacks on military installations and the capture of British arms by these groups became a major feature of the Palestinian scene, along with a proliferation of Jewish-Arab clashes. With events moving towards a major armed confrontation, Great Britain announced that it would terminate the Mandate on 15 May 1948, several months before the time envisaged in the United Nations plan.

The Security Council could not take any effective decision after discussing General Assembly resolution 181 (II) (the partition resolution) in December 1947. In March 1948 the United States draft proposal to enable the Council to act on the partition resolution failed, and the Council only called for an end to the violence in Palestine. Under the pressure of rapidly moving developments, the partition resolution did not even reach the stage of routine reference to the Sixth Committee for an examination of its legal effects and implications. The United Nations Commission on Palestine, established by resolution 181 (II), could not move to Jerusalem, and only could hold consultations in New York. The formation of the armed militia, intended to assist the Commission in its functions in Palestine, became impracticable in the face of the accelerated British withdrawal in a deteriorating situation where the casualty toll in the first three months after the approval of the partition resolution was 869 dead and 1,909 injured. 65/

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study, part II: 1947-1977 (30 June 1979)

Indeed, the partition plan was really a stupid thing to do. It created many problems and was abandoned as unworkable. It was never implemented. It created no states.

It was very workable, but the Arabs got greedy and rejected it.

 

[MHunterB]

OK, tinny - WHY do you think the UN's idea of partitioning the Mandate was so 'stupid'?

More importantly, what do you think should've been done, and why?

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, tinny - WHY do you think the UN's idea of partitioning the Mandate was so 'stupid'?

More importantly, what do you think should've been done, and why?

It would have violated the UN Charter and international law to partition Palestine without the concent of the Palestinians. The Palestinians rejected the proposal. Case closed.

It did create a lot of violence.

They must have been monumentally stupid to think that the Palestinians would accept a plan to give half of their country to foreigners.

 

[toastman]

OK, tinny - WHY do you think the UN's idea of partitioning the Mandate was so 'stupid'?

More importantly, what do you think should've been done, and why?

It would have violated the UN Charter and international law to partition Palestine without the concent of the Palestinians. The Palestinians rejected the proposal. Case closed.

It did create a lot of violence.

They must have been monumentally stupid to think that the Palestinians would accept a plan to give half of their country to foreigners.

Stop with your lies, there was no country called Palestine for ***** sake.
And from what I understand, it was the surrounding Arab nations that rejected the proposal on behalf of the Palestinian Arabs (notice how I said Palestinian Arabs, and not Palestinians) am I right ?

 

[toastman]

You always seem to also ignore the fact that the Arabs threatened genocide on the Jews saying that "if the Jewish State becomes a fact, we will drive the Jews to the sea"
They implemented their actions when they invaded the tiny state of Israel. What is the legality of that ?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

OK, tinny - WHY do you think the UN's idea of partitioning the Mandate was so 'stupid'?

More importantly, what do you think should've been done, and why?

It would have violated the UN Charter and international law to partition Palestine without the concent of the Palestinians. The Palestinians rejected the proposal. Case closed.

It did create a lot of violence.

They must have been monumentally stupid to think that the Palestinians would accept a plan to give half of their country to foreigners.

But the Palestinians themselves were foreigners from surrounding Arab states who moved to Palestine/Israel for the job oppotunities created by the Zionists! The United Nations listed as refugees Arabs who lived there for only TWO YEARS!!

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, tinny - WHY do you think the UN's idea of partitioning the Mandate was so 'stupid'?

More importantly, what do you think should've been done, and why?

It would have violated the UN Charter and international law to partition Palestine without the concent of the Palestinians. The Palestinians rejected the proposal. Case closed.

It did create a lot of violence.

They must have been monumentally stupid to think that the Palestinians would accept a plan to give half of their country to foreigners.

Stop with your lies, there was no country called Palestine for ***** sake.
And from what I understand, it was the surrounding Arab nations that rejected the proposal on behalf of the Palestinian Arabs (notice how I said Palestinian Arabs, and not Palestinians) am I right ?

Whatevahhh.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You always seem to also ignore the fact that the Arabs threatened genocide on the Jews saying that "if the Jewish State becomes a fact, we will drive the Jews to the sea"
They implemented their actions when they invaded the tiny state of Israel. What is the legality of that ?

Show me a 1948 map of Israel and where the borders were crossed.

 

[toastman]

You always seem to also ignore the fact that the Arabs threatened genocide on the Jews saying that "if the Jewish State becomes a fact, we will drive the Jews to the sea"
They implemented their actions when they invaded the tiny state of Israel. What is the legality of that ?

Show me a 1948 map of Israel and where the borders were crossed.

I asked you earlier to show me the borders of Palestine during the time that we were discussing as well as the details concerning them (their international recognition etc..)
YOu ducked the question like usual
And every time I show you a map of Israel in 1948, you say that is a Map of Palestine lol

Even though it is clearly marked Israel

 

[MHunterB]

You always seem to also ignore the fact that the Arabs threatened genocide on the Jews saying that "if the Jewish State becomes a fact, we will drive the Jews to the sea"
They implemented their actions when they invaded the tiny state of Israel. What is the legality of that ?

Show me a 1948 map of Israel and where the borders were crossed.

Borders are where Israel declared them to be, since the Arabs refused to co-operate with the UN and abide by its resolutions.

Once Israel was ADMITTED to the UN as a State, its 'legitimacy' is undeniable and any braying about 'borders' is just so much asininity.

 

[Kondor3]

You always seem to also ignore the fact that the Arabs threatened genocide on the Jews saying that "if the Jewish State becomes a fact, we will drive the Jews to the sea"
They implemented their actions when they invaded the tiny state of Israel. What is the legality of that ?

Show me a 1948 map of Israel and where the borders were crossed.

Borders are where Israel declared them to be, since the Arabs refused to co-operate with the UN and abide by its resolutions.

Once Israel was ADMITTED to the UN as a State, its 'legitimacy' is undeniable and any braying about 'borders' is just so much asininity.

Indeed.

There never was a nation known as Palestine.

There was a region known as Palestine whose constituent parts were owned by neighboring states.

There is a reference in antiquity to Phillistia - the part of the eastern Med dominated by Tyre and its Phillistine masters...

There was a thin, semi-nomadic, impoverished and unstable Johnny-Come-Lately Arab population whose ancestors conquered these lands from the Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire) by the sword, and who weren't doing anything particularly interesting with the land anyway...

This conquered land eventually became a province of the old Ottoman Turkish Empire known as Palestine...

There was an area roughly equivalent to the old Ottoman province of Palestine which the League of Nations entrusted to the British in the wake of WWI, known as the British Mandate for Palestine...

But there was never a nation called Palestine...

Whereas, the Jews don't have that kind of problem with polity and prior and older claims...

The Jews merely seized the lands that the UN had set aside for the Jews anyway, and which the intransigent Arabs would not compromise on, despite all evidence to the contrary that there was going to be trouble if they refused...

The Jews seized this land because they believe that the land is theirs anyway with prior claims stretching back to the 70 A.D. time-frame and beyond, to the 1200-2000 B.C. time-frame...

The Jews seized this land because 6,000,000 of their own had recently been slaughtered, and because they were on the verge of extinction, and had nowhere else left to go on the face of the earth, so they dug-in and made a fight of it, and won themselves a homeland for their people for the first time in 1900 years, despite incredible odds and strength lined-up against them.

The moment that the United Nations recognized the new State of Israel - with its new borders attained and maintained by force of arms - in that nanosecond, the borders became legitimate...

The Palestinians continuing to whine about that for 65 years while slowly disintegrating as a people is indicative of desperate, regretful and foolhardy perceptions and dealings with the outside world...

The Palestinians are a laughing stock, and not even their Arab-Muslim brethren want anything to do with them, outside the framework of peeing on the Israeli shoe...

The world has grown bone-weary of this tempest in a tea-pot, blown way out of proportion, over some pi$$ant sliver of flea-bitten land, while the Arabs have so much more in the surrounding vicinity...

And, when the world grows weary of something, many people begin to tune-out, or turn a deaf ear, or harden their hearts, and throw up their hands, and say: "I just don't give a shit"...

Which is where a lot of people are when it comes to considering Palestine and Palestinians...

Not surprising, when we consider Palestinian suicide bombing campaigns and Palestinian-sponsored international terrorism and massed Palestinian rocket attacks upon Israeli civilian population centers without provocation.

By now, though, the Israelis have had it with the Palestinians, and they aren't likely to come back to the conference table... it may be far too late for that now, based upon what a map of Shrinking Palestine will reveal to us.

The few fragments of remaining Palestinian-controlled land will be annexed by Israel within the next 20 years, and their vestigial Arab-Muslim population scattered into the surrounding countries...

30-40 years after that, nobody will remember, and the still-born so-called 'Palestine' will be nothing more than a small-print footnote in an occasional history book...

Any Palestinian with an ounce of brains and two shekels to rub together is going to be very busy getting his family the hell outta there while there's still time...

 

[P F Tinmore]

You always seem to also ignore the fact that the Arabs threatened genocide on the Jews saying that "if the Jewish State becomes a fact, we will drive the Jews to the sea"
They implemented their actions when they invaded the tiny state of Israel. What is the legality of that ?

Show me a 1948 map of Israel and where the borders were crossed.

I asked you earlier to show me the borders of Palestine during the time that we were discussing as well as the details concerning them (their international recognition etc..)
YOu ducked the question like usual
And every time I show you a map of Israel in 1948, you say that is a Map of Palestine lol

Even though it is clearly marked Israel

Every map of Israel has Israel inside the 1949 armistice lines.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Why do they use armistice lines instead of Israel's real borders? Because Israel has no borders.

 

[Kondor3]

"...The moment that the United Nations recognized the new State of Israel - with its new borders attained and maintained by force of arms - in that nanosecond, the borders became legitimate...

The Palestinians continuing to whine about that for 65 years while slowly disintegrating as a people is indicative of desperate, regretful and foolhardy perceptions and dealings with the outside world..."

This matter was settled by force of arms in 1948.

65 years ago.

The war is over.

The Palestinians lost.

Someday, they may catch up with reality, but I won't bet any money on it.

The United States had no borders, either, until it had won those by force of arms, and forced England to recognize these borders in 1783.

We know exactly how the Israelis felt in 1948-1949.

They won their country, too, by force of arms, and they, too, made history on the global stage.

The Israeli victory relegates old pre-1948 legal understandings to the realm of toilet paper... suitable for wiping your backside after a dump, but without value or utility, otherwise.