Thanks Democrats! In 47 Of 50 Cities, Obamacare Will Be Unaffordable In 2018 By Law's Definition

[shockedcanadian]

I hope from the bottom of my heart Trump is able to accomplish this and I know he understands that it will require the lowering of debt AND increased growth in the economy.

First of all, debt growth isn't intrinsically linked to economic growth. Second of all, Trump and the Conservatives will never be able to reduce the deficit or increase growth because their taxation policies are entirely deficit-financed and rely on faith. That's why Reagan tripled the debt and had worse average job growth than Carter not to mention a painful recession that started months after the tax cut was passed. That's why Bush the Elder raised taxes, costing him re-election, because Reagan tripled the debt and left behind a deficit that was double what it was that he got from Carter. That's why Bush the Dumber's tax cuts erased a surplus and produced 4 record deficits in 8 years that doubled the debt and cost 460,000 net jobs. That's why Kansas repealed their Brownback Tax Cuts and now have surpluses when they didn't because of the tax cuts.

Tax cuts have never and will never pay for themselves. That's the biggest Conservative lie there is. It's a zombie lie. One that need to be put down by Rick Grimes.

If tax cuts result in increased spending by citizens in the economy, it is huge. It supports jobs and American confidence.

You seem to propose "more government hands in your pocket is a good thing". I suppose we have a very different outlook on individuality and free market principles.

 

[shockedcanadian]

lol right?

What's baffling to me is that you have all this fear-mongering about single payer health care, yet you're totally OK with the lack of competition in health care today thanks to insurance companies.

It proves this isn't even about health care for you, this is about your own personal inherent biases. Biases that seem to have been informed by 37 year old rhetoric from a long-dead Alzheimer's patient and his cadre of fradusters, phonies, and those in a permanent state of arrested development.

Funny how you don't hear Laffer's name anymore after the disaster that was Kansas.

Trump is signing an EO within a week or two that will allow end users to seek healthcare options across state line. This is a big deal if you ask me.

 

[TNHarley]

lol right?

What's baffling to me is that you have all this fear-mongering about single payer health care, yet you're totally OK with the lack of competition in health care today thanks to insurance companies.

It proves this isn't even about health care for you, this is about your own personal inherent biases. Biases that seem to have been informed by 37 year old rhetoric from a long-dead Alzheimer's patient and his cadre of fradusters, phonies, and those in a permanent state of arrested development.

Funny how you don't hear Laffer's name anymore after the disaster that was Kansas.

Trump is signing an EO within a week or two that will allow end users to seek healthcare options across state line. This is a big deal if you ask me.

its also unconstitutional. The federal government doesnt have the power to regulate state laws on healthcare. They just do it anyways.
Executive orders are so abused its beyond terrible.

 

[The Derp]

In 1929, debt was 16% of GDP, now it's 104% (it was 105% in 2016, so thank Trump policies again for decreasing it 1 full percent).

Debt isn't what caused the Great Depression. Just like Debt isn't what caused the Great Bush Recession. But debt recovered the country from both collapses. Because when the economy contracts, spending by the government must be done in order to make up for the contraction of spending in the private sector. That's how you stop recessions from spinning into depressions.

Now, Trump is sharper in his eye for talent than people give him credit for (often overlooked by people) and he has surrounded himself with some very good leaders.

What leaders? And what talent? Trump is one of the worst businessmen there is...how many of his companies entered bankruptcy? Who fucking loses money on a casino? Someone fucking bad at business, that's who.

I've expressed this before, but in my opinion, Wilbur Ross as Secretary of Commerce is his best choice. That's saying alot when he is surrounded by excellent people like Tillerson, Mattis and Nikki Haley among others.

Wilbur Ross laundered money through his Cyprus banks to help Russians. Wilbur Ross will probably be one of the many Trump people dragged before a judge to face for his treason. Oh, and Wilbur Ross is a fraud. That too. None of the people Trump picked are talented. In fact, the entire strategy Bannon and Trump had when it came to picking people for these posts was to "destroy the administrative state". How do you go about accomplishing that? By putting the least ethical, least qualified people in these positions. So that's why Ben Carson -who has no experience with housing policy- was named HUD secretary. That's why Betsy DeVos -who can't even use correct grammar on Twitter- was made Education Secretary. Conservatives want to destroy the faith in government institutions so they can impose a theocratic fascist state. Fuck them.

Ross is not only one who is crafty and sharp, but he is not one you can b.s. I've followed him closely and have been quite impressed with his understanding of macro and microeconomics and the challenges facing America.

Ross is a fraud who is in bed with Russia after laundering money for them through his Cypriot bank. What makes you think he knows anything? Certainly not reflected in his policies, which seem to be rehashed from the Reagan-era trickle-down policies that didn't fucking work.

One of the best comments he made, and I paraphrase, is that "it's not fair that America has the burden of absorbing such an excessive amount of debt for the sake of the global economy." Absolutely correct. If America wants to remain sovereign and solvent, this has to change.

Ross is doing what you're doing; pretending that debt has some kind of effect on the economy when it doesn't. IN fact, you fucking liars were pushing around a paper in 2010 called "Growth in the Time of Debt" which had the pre-ordained conclusion that once debt reaches a certain percentage of GDP, the economy "falls off a cliff". Well guess what? THAT IS ALL BULLSHIT. Turns out the policy paper that was the only source of your claims regarding debt and austerity turned out to have been rife with "spreadsheet errors" and omissions that dramatically alter the conclusions. It took a UMASS grad student to delve into the Excel docs for the truth to come out. Think about that...the basis of your economic argument about debt comes from a paper that wasn't peer-reviewed, that a grad student in Amherst managed to discredit just by looking at a spreadsheet.

And that is precisely why nothing Conservatives say about economics can be taken seriously. Because Conservatives are willing to lie, deceive, and cover up as a means to justify the ends.

You're shit people because of that. Your beliefs are shit. Everything about you is shit. There are no redeeming qualities.

 

[The Derp]

Now there's some revisionism. Was Obama the one who placed a hiring freeze on federal workers? Or renegotiated deals? Or drove the stockmarket to not just record heights, but record sustained heights.

1. Trump put a freeze on hiring, but that didn't save money. That money for those positions was already allocated, it doesn't magically re-appear in the government's coffers if it's not used. Why the fuck do you think Trump just agreed to fund the government just a couple weeks ago...where he caved to Pelosi and Schumer? It was because the continuing resolution from Obama was expiring. The reason the deficit was reduced was because of economic activity driving increased revenues, and fines levied against certain banks. Trump has only since Sept. 1st, had a hand in government spending.

2. What deal did Trump "re-negotiate"? None. He blustered about re-negotiating NAFTA, but that hasm't happend (don't be surprised if it ever does...what's the incentive for Mexico or Canada to renegotiate)? You all seem to think that just by sheer force of will, deals can be negotiated. Well, that's fucking stupid and if you think that, then you're bad at business.

3. LOL! Obama is the one who handed Trump record high markets. Trump's just coasting on Obama's coattails. The stock market was reaching record highs long before Trump was President. Obama took the market from 6,500 to 20,000. What's Trump taken the market to? 22,371. So he's only grown the market by about 2,000 points from where Obama left it. Yet Obama grew the market by 13,500 points. So Trump's got some pretty big shoes to fill...I don't think his feet are big enough, if his hands are any indication.

Maybe Obama walked away from the tax stealing Paris Accord.

The Paris Accords are just loose commitments. There is no taxation involved in them. You are uninformed on this subject, and spreading bullshit lies about it, why? What is it you have to gain by spreading lies about things? Don't understand what you are hoping to achieve by deliberately lying and deceiving people. It's obvious you didn't come to that conclusion yourself, so who told you that the Paris Accords involved taxation? Name names! Unless you came to that conclusion by reading the actual accords in which case, you'll have to cite where in the accords it imposes taxation at all

A fucking lying, posturing piece of shit. That's what you are.

Or demanded companies bidding on government projects lower their profit margins. Hell, Trump is even calling out the cost of the fence upgrade around the WH and the excessive spending on flights from his Health Minister.

LOL! Spending on flights for his HHS secretary only after it was exposed in the press that Price was doing that. And what exactly is Trump going to do about it? Nothing.

THAT'S looking out for the taxpayer. That's a guy who has overseen expensive building projects and has an eye for when he is being screwed with excessive costs. If ever there was time for a business person in the WH, it's now.

LOL! Trump hasn't overseen building projects! Are you fucking kidding me!? That's Bill Rancic's job. Trump just slaps his name on a building after it's built. His name is his franchise that he licenses out to builders. Trump's not a builder, he's a brand. How could someone be as clueless as you without being so steeped in denial?

 

[shockedcanadian]

Now there's some revisionism. Was Obama the one who placed a hiring freeze on federal workers? Or renegotiated deals? Or drove the stockmarket to not just record heights, but record sustained heights.

1. Trump put a freeze on hiring, but that didn't save money. That money for those positions was already allocated, it doesn't magically re-appear in the government's coffers if it's not used. Why the fuck do you think Trump just agreed to fund the government just a couple weeks ago...where he caved to Pelosi and Schumer? It was because the continuing resolution from Obama was expiring. The reason the deficit was reduced was because of economic activity driving increased revenues, and fines levied against certain banks. Trump has only since Sept. 1st, had a hand in government spending.

2. What deal did Trump "re-negotiate"? None. He blustered about re-negotiating NAFTA, but that hasm't happend (don't be surprised if it ever does...what's the incentive for Mexico or Canada to renegotiate)? You all seem to think that just by sheer force of will, deals can be negotiated. Well, that's fucking stupid and if you think that, then you're bad at business.

3. LOL! Obama is the one who handed Trump record high markets. Trump's just coasting on Obama's coattails. The stock market was reaching record highs long before Trump was President. Obama took the market from 6,500 to 20,000. What's Trump taken the market to? 22,371. So he's only grown the market by about 2,000 points from where Obama left it. Yet Obama grew the market by 13,500 points. So Trump's got some pretty big shoes to fill...I don't think his feet are big enough, if his hands are any indication.

Maybe Obama walked away from the tax stealing Paris Accord.

The Paris Accords are just loose commitments. There is no taxation involved in them. You are uninformed on this subject, and spreading bullshit lies about it, why? What is it you have to gain by spreading lies about things? Don't understand what you are hoping to achieve by deliberately lying and deceiving people. It's obvious you didn't come to that conclusion yourself, so who told you that the Paris Accords involved taxation? Name names! Unless you came to that conclusion by reading the actual accords in which case, you'll have to cite where in the accords it imposes taxation at all

A fucking lying, posturing piece of shit. That's what you are.

Or demanded companies bidding on government projects lower their profit margins. Hell, Trump is even calling out the cost of the fence upgrade around the WH and the excessive spending on flights from his Health Minister.

LOL! Spending on flights for his HHS secretary only after it was exposed in the press that Price was doing that. And what exactly is Trump going to do about it? Nothing.

THAT'S looking out for the taxpayer. That's a guy who has overseen expensive building projects and has an eye for when he is being screwed with excessive costs. If ever there was time for a business person in the WH, it's now.

LOL! Trump hasn't overseen building projects! Are you fucking kidding me!? That's Bill Rancic's job. Trump just slaps his name on a building after it's built. His name is his franchise that he licenses out to builders. Trump's not a builder, he's a brand. How could someone be as clueless as you without being so steeped in denial?

My Spidey Senses say that I'm finished with this thread, but I will state that you sound cute when you're angry.

God Bless America! Have a blessed and peaceful day.

 

[The Derp]

look you tunnel vision nincompoop, i dont like reagan. I dont give two shits what he said. He was a disaster. My problem is the government taking over healthcare is unconstitutional.

Government isn't taking over health care in a single payer scenario. The only part that the government plays is that of the entity that reimburses your doctors, who are still private. All it does is level the playing field for providers by reimbursing everyone at the same rate.

Don't you want doctors to compete for your care? How are you to know right now that the care you get from your doctor is the best? You simply don't. You have to have faith that it is.

How are new doctors not affiliated with Medical groups supposed to compete for insurers when insurers set rates with large groups that make it impossible for small practices to thrive? A hospital can weather an 80% reimbursement rate, but a small private practice cannot. And small private practices have no chance to compete with larger medical groups because the deck is stacked by insurers and providers against them. How's that free market? How's that competition? Seems like the opposite to me.

The govt is a huge corrupt failure so why on this green earth would i want them to take control of my healthcare?.

Government is only as effective as the people we elect to it. So it makes little sense to elect people opposed to the institution of government if your goal is to make government effective, right? Unless that's not your goal. In which case, the only other goal it could possibly be is that you want government to fail in order to confirm your bias.

Conservatives say government is the problem, then get elected and prove it.

The government being a corrupt failure isnt a damn conspiracy. If we were talking about something else, you would probably agree. You are just another broken record hack.

It actually is a conspiracy. Bannon and Trump even admitted it as such when they said their goal was to destroy the administrative state. How do you accomplish that goal if not by deliberately making government less effective by putting people in it who want to see it fail!?!?!

 

[The Derp]

Trump is signing an EO within a week or two that will allow end users to seek healthcare options across state line. This is a big deal if you ask me.

Many states already allow that. My state of Georgia has allowed out-of-state insurers for years. You know why it doesn't succeed? Because each state regulates insurance differently (your 10th Amendment principles there) and there's too much of an administrative cost for an insurer in one state to then devise processes and procedures for customers outside the state.

Also, how is letting insurers across state lines not going to lead to a Too-big-to-fail situation, like it did with the banks? Do you want to inevitably have to bail out the insurers in a couple years when we all find out that it's impossible to bring down costs by allowing private entities to sell nationwide? Aren't you concerned with shared oligopoly? Where only a handful of companies control and dictate the market? Because that's what's going to happen if you allow insurers to do that. They will just merge and acquire smaller insurers to increase their market share. So what will happen is like what has happened with television; there are only about a half dozen companies that provide TV, and those companies have colluded with one another to divide up the country, eliminating regional competition. How's that good for anyone?

 

[The Derp]

its also unconstitutional. The federal government doesnt have the power to regulate state laws on healthcare. They just do it anyways. Executive orders are so abused its beyond terrible.

Why does health care have to be a state issue? Do people in Texas get a different kind of colon cancer than people in Vermont?

 

[TNHarley]

its also unconstitutional. The federal government doesnt have the power to regulate state laws on healthcare. They just do it anyways. Executive orders are so abused its beyond terrible.

Why does health care have to be a state issue? Do people in Texas get a different kind of colon cancer than people in Vermont?

Because healthcare isnt a power given to the Federal Govt.

 

[The Derp]

My Spidey Senses say that I'm finished with this thread, but I will state that you sound cute when you're angry.

Farewell coward! You won't be missed.

 

[The Derp]

Because healthcare isnt a power given to the Federal Govt.

Ummmm...it's general welfare. You're saying Medicare is unconstitutional? Medicaid? The VA? LOL.

 

[Foxfyre]

This was the inevitable plan the whole time, to eventually bankrupt the middle class and force them into single payer socialized healthcare. America is paying the price for electing a non-natural born citizen unconstitutional ineligible president. The founders warned about the dangers of having a non-natural born citizen as president prompting them to create Article 2 Section 1, the natural born citizen presidential clause when framing the Constitution.


In 47 of 50 cities, ObamaCare coverage will be 'unaffordable' in 2018 by law's definition

families would need to incur an extra $28,939 before the plan became affordable. On average, a family of three would have to earn a six-figure salary—or $110,823.32—for coverage to be affordable.

Yes, and I don't know who to be more angry with. The feckless Republicans who refuse to come up with a workable solution for the problem or the Democrats who caused it and refuse to do anything about it. President Trump is absolutely right. It will collapse under its own weight causing incalculable misery which hopefully will force the permanent political class in Washington to do something, but that's sure a piss poor way to do it.

 

[TNHarley]

Because healthcare isnt a power given to the Federal Govt.

Ummmm...it's general welfare. You're saying Medicare is unconstitutional? Medicaid? The VA? LOL.

medicare and medicaid is, yes.
That isnt general welfare. In order for it to fit that context, it would have to be completely equal in EVERY WAY for everyone, IMO. I say that because I understand what "general welfare" means.

 

[The Derp]

Yes, and I don't know who to be more angry with. The feckless Republicans who refuse to come up with a workable solution for the problem or the Democrats who caused it and refuse to do anything about it.

What problem did the Democrats cause? It was Rubio who stripped out the CSR's from Obamacare that led to insurers dropping out. It was Conservative red state death panels that refused to expand Medicaid. It was Conservatives who fervently opposed a Public Option at all costs. So what did the Democrats do? Nothing. They passed a law and Conservatives have spent the last 7 years trying to undermine it any way they can not because they care about health care, but because they want to tarnish Obama's legacy because the legacy Conservatives have is shit.

President Trump is absolutely right. It will collapse under its own weight causing incalculable misery which hopefully will force the permanent political class in Washington to do something, but that's sure a piss poor way to do it.

Please explain how you think it's going to collapse. If it hasn't in 7 years, it's not going to unless you take deliberate action to make it so...like reducing the advertising for enrollment; like taking the site down during enrollment for "maintenance"; like stripping out CSR's which resulted in insurers leaving the markets; like denying Medicaid expansion which puts working people in the Medicaid gap between qualifying for Medicaid and qualifying for subsidies.

These are all actions you guys took to undermine the law. Not because you care about health care, but because you have a compulsion and obsession about tarnishing Obama's legacy because your own legacy looks like a heaping pile of shit.

 

[The Derp]

medicare and medicaid is, yes.

And what standard are you applying there?

That isnt general welfare.

Says who? You? When did you become the constitutional authority? Was it in between not understanding what health insurance is, and not understanding that cutting taxes creates deficits? Seems like you've foisted an entitled position on yourself when no one asked or suggested. So you invent weird standards and then expect those weird standards you invented to be taken seriously. Why should they? Because you really want them to? Get over your privilege.

In order for it to fit that context, it would have to be completely equal in EVERY WAY for everyone, IMO. I say that because I understand what "general welfare" means.

What do you mean? It is completely equal. Everyone has equal access and rights to these entitlements. That's why they're called entitlements. So I'm not sure what you're getting at, but it seems like a half-assed attempt to make yourself sound more intelligent and thoughtful than you are.

 

[TNHarley]

medicare and medicaid is, yes.

And what standard are you applying there?

That isnt general welfare.

Says who? You? When did you become the constitutional authority? Was it in between not understanding what health insurance is, and not understanding that cutting taxes creates deficits? Seems like you've foisted an entitled position on yourself when no one asked or suggested. So you invent weird standards and then expect those weird standards you invented to be taken seriously. Why should they? Because you really want them to? Get over your privilege.

In order for it to fit that context, it would have to be completely equal in EVERY WAY for everyone, IMO. I say that because I understand what "general welfare" means.

What do you mean? It is completely equal. Everyone has equal access and rights to these entitlements. That's why they're called entitlements. So I'm not sure what you're getting at, but it seems like a half-assed attempt to make yourself sound more intelligent and thoughtful than you are.

what standard? The Constitution.
Of course i am not. I can just read the document and i understand basic, english terminology.
Equal on everything. Including payments taxes whatever. And we both know damn well that wont happen.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yes, and I don't know who to be more angry with. The feckless Republicans who refuse to come up with a workable solution for the problem or the Democrats who caused it and refuse to do anything about it.

What problem did the Democrats cause? It was Rubio who stripped out the CSR's from Obamacare that led to insurers dropping out. It was Conservative red state death panels that refused to expand Medicaid. It was Conservatives who fervently opposed a Public Option at all costs. So what did the Democrats do? Nothing. They passed a law and Conservatives have spent the last 7 years trying to undermine it any way they can not because they care about health care, but because they want to tarnish Obama's legacy because the legacy Conservatives have is shit.

President Trump is absolutely right. It will collapse under its own weight causing incalculable misery which hopefully will force the permanent political class in Washington to do something, but that's sure a piss poor way to do it.

Please explain how you think it's going to collapse. If it hasn't in 7 years, it's not going to unless you take deliberate action to make it so...like reducing the advertising for enrollment; like taking the site down during enrollment for "maintenance"; like stripping out CSR's which resulted in insurers leaving the markets; like denying Medicaid expansion which puts working people in the Medicaid gap between qualifying for Medicaid and qualifying for subsidies.

These are all actions you guys took to undermine the law. Not because you care about health care, but because you have a compulsion and obsession about tarnishing Obama's legacy because your own legacy looks like a heaping pile of shit.

The Democrats had a super majority when they passed Obamacare. They could have done it right. They didn't. They didn't need the Republicans to pass it and the Republicans had absolutely no say about what went into it. And without a single Republican vote in the House or Senate the Democrats own it.

I don't believe for a minute that the Republicans have done a single thing to undermine it. Point out its flaws and the myriad negative consequences as a result of it? Absolutely. That they were elected to do as well as fix it. They put in their rhetoric all right but they have done nothing to fix it though some have probably tried. And they haven't had the super majority that Obama enjoyed. Obamacare is the worst monstrosity ever forced upon the American people. As for what will make it ultimately collapse, read the OP.

 

[The Derp]

what standard? The Constitution.

Where in the Constitution? No where. You think just regurgitating "the Constitution" is an answer? It's not. You need to show where it says that. Because I've invoked the general welfare clause, and you've invoked...nothing. You just imagine the Constitution says something when it doesn't because you need that validation. You're so insecure in your argument. That's why I keep drilling down.

Of course i am not. I can just read the document and i understand basic, english terminology..

I disagree with your personal assessment of your own capabilities.

Equal on everything. Including payments taxes whatever. And we both know damn well that wont happen.

Equal on everything? Ummm...well, everyone does pay an equal Medicare tax rate. And everyone is entitled to the same benefits according to what they paid in. So this is just another example of you making shit up off the top of your head, and thinking that slapdash explanation is a sufficient answer. It isn't. It's an incomplete answer. So you don't even get an "F", you get an "I". And furthermore, a single payer system accomplishes equality because everyone pays the same rate, and every provider is reimbursed at the same rate. So you just kinda walked right into that rhetorical trap, didn't ya?

 

[The Derp]

The Democrats had a super majority when they passed Obamacare. They could have done it right. They didn't.

What was "doing it right"? What does that entail? Please, expand on that thought.

They didn't need the Republicans to pass it and the Republicans had absolutely no say about what went into it. And without a single Republican vote in the House or Senate the Democrats own it.

Bullshit. Republicans chose not to participate in it. The bill took over a year from conception to when it was signed into law. Dozens of committee hearings were held. Obama even went to the Republicans in person to listen to their concerns and talk them through what he was proposing. You all chose to not participate, then you whine that you didn't get to participate!

No...you don't get to put that on Democrats. That was you all refusing to participate in the process because you all have no fucking idea what kind of health care system you want. In fact, you were all denying there even was a problem with health care back in 2009-10, despite the sky-high premium increases, the multitude of bankruptcies, and the tens of thousands of preventable deaths.

You fucking crybabies didn't want to participate in it because you were all feeling bad about yourselves for getting your clock cleaned in 2008. And because your legacy is shit, it means you have to tarnish the legacy of others just so you don't have to feel bad about yourselves.

Whiny. Little. Bitches

Of course, now we're finding out that the real reason Conservatives opposed this law is not on any economic or fiscal or compassionate grounds, but because a handful of their wealthiest donors want them to.

Which proves this has never been about health care, only about what a few wealthy Conservatives want.

FUCK. THEM.