eots
no fly list
Why? so the outcome can be determined before the trial and evidence
Terrorist Aquited on over 200 counts.
- Thread starter SFC Ollie
- Start date
Why? so the outcome can be determined before the trial and evidence
Immanuel
Gold Member
- May 15, 2007
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I'm not at all sure why they barred the witness. What did the torture issue have to do with this man's right to a fair trial?
Immie
Immanuel
Gold Member
- May 15, 2007
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It was said sort of tongue in cheek, Dr. Grump, playing on his Muslim relationships.
President Obama did not make that decision.
Immie
Liability
Locked Account.
On the one hand, I have long maintained that it is dangerous and stupid to hold these "trials" as though the al qaeda type filth we are now "prosecuting" were ONLY guilty of criminality.
And I stand by that. This is beyond ridiculous. It is quite dangerous and very very stupid.
However, if we ARE going to treat them as though they "merely" committed criminal acts, then we ought to not be shocked if and when some of them get acquitted on some counts (or maybe even all counts). The only other alternative is that we would be staging "show" trials where the "verdict" was written in advance. Doing that kind of deliberate damage to our system of justice would be a tragic, horrifying, mindless and evil act.
And let's not kid ourselves. American juries are NOT going to simply convict some stupid bastard just because the government has placed the "terrorist" label on him. The government WILL get held to the criminal justice standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the government is unable and unwilling to provide to the "defendants'" attorneys all of the "discovery material" to which any "criminal" would be entitled, then you can bet your asses that the defense attorney's will RAIL against the denial of "justice." And they would be right in doing so.
We are begging for trouble. If the "evidence" against some scumbag terrorist happens to be classified intelligence material, then the Government either has to give up the classified material TO the fucking enemy OR they will have to use common sense to refuse to share such classified material with the "defense," and likely face SANCTIONS up to and possibly including dismissals of the charges in case after case.
This is insanity. These "cases" do NOT belong in criminal courts of law. We are not discussing mere criminal behavior. We are discussing acts of war, and the fact that we are dealing with illegal combatants doesn't change the analysis at all. We do not prosecute enemy soldiers (uniformed or not) in criminal courts. We fight them on whatever the battlefields might be. And we kill them and defeat them.
I cannot understand why liberals tend to accept the highly retarded notion that we "should" give a captured enemy combatant "Miranda" warnings. Liberal thinking on this topic is insane and it manifests its insanity in insane outcomes like that.
And I stand by that. This is beyond ridiculous. It is quite dangerous and very very stupid.
However, if we ARE going to treat them as though they "merely" committed criminal acts, then we ought to not be shocked if and when some of them get acquitted on some counts (or maybe even all counts). The only other alternative is that we would be staging "show" trials where the "verdict" was written in advance. Doing that kind of deliberate damage to our system of justice would be a tragic, horrifying, mindless and evil act.
And let's not kid ourselves. American juries are NOT going to simply convict some stupid bastard just because the government has placed the "terrorist" label on him. The government WILL get held to the criminal justice standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And if the government is unable and unwilling to provide to the "defendants'" attorneys all of the "discovery material" to which any "criminal" would be entitled, then you can bet your asses that the defense attorney's will RAIL against the denial of "justice." And they would be right in doing so.
We are begging for trouble. If the "evidence" against some scumbag terrorist happens to be classified intelligence material, then the Government either has to give up the classified material TO the fucking enemy OR they will have to use common sense to refuse to share such classified material with the "defense," and likely face SANCTIONS up to and possibly including dismissals of the charges in case after case.
This is insanity. These "cases" do NOT belong in criminal courts of law. We are not discussing mere criminal behavior. We are discussing acts of war, and the fact that we are dealing with illegal combatants doesn't change the analysis at all. We do not prosecute enemy soldiers (uniformed or not) in criminal courts. We fight them on whatever the battlefields might be. And we kill them and defeat them.
I cannot understand why liberals tend to accept the highly retarded notion that we "should" give a captured enemy combatant "Miranda" warnings. Liberal thinking on this topic is insane and it manifests its insanity in insane outcomes like that.
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Madeline
Rookie
- Banned
- #45
I agree, the use of classified material is problematic -- or might could be. However, I dun know what else you'd call the thugs in Al Quaeda other than "criminals". They sure as fuck aren't "soldiers".
I'll say this AGAIN. No jury on Planet Earth is more likely to convict on charges of terrorism than one in NYC. If the government could not make its case, it is almost certainly because the man is NOT GUILTY. I dun know where this supreme faith in the US government comes from, but it is not reality-based. We know they screwed the pooch on intelligence and it seems inescapable to conclude that not only have they failed to locate and imprison all the guilty people, they have swept some innocent ones into the net as well.
My ethics professor in law school was Castro's premier prosecutor immediately following the Cuban Revolution. He has stories about lining people up for 15 minutes trials so they can be hung twenty minutes later. That's not justice, it's not American, and it would violate various human rights agreements the US has made with Planet Earth. It would do nothing to further our interests in safety and it would generate much righteous anger -- some of it among the next wave of terrorists.
Revenge against an innocent man should not feed anyone's appetite for revenge.
I'll say this AGAIN. No jury on Planet Earth is more likely to convict on charges of terrorism than one in NYC. If the government could not make its case, it is almost certainly because the man is NOT GUILTY. I dun know where this supreme faith in the US government comes from, but it is not reality-based. We know they screwed the pooch on intelligence and it seems inescapable to conclude that not only have they failed to locate and imprison all the guilty people, they have swept some innocent ones into the net as well.
My ethics professor in law school was Castro's premier prosecutor immediately following the Cuban Revolution. He has stories about lining people up for 15 minutes trials so they can be hung twenty minutes later. That's not justice, it's not American, and it would violate various human rights agreements the US has made with Planet Earth. It would do nothing to further our interests in safety and it would generate much righteous anger -- some of it among the next wave of terrorists.
Revenge against an innocent man should not feed anyone's appetite for revenge.
JBeukema
Rookie
- Banned
- #47
You're right.
We should do away with the court system altogether- what if anyone gets off on a technicality?
If the authority of the courts should be destroyed -- if their carefully determined decrees are arbitrarily and without investigation, merely upon suspicion and general belief, set aside... the weak are the ones who will suffer in any such decision....Tear down the courts and the law, and there is left the spectacle of a bloody tyranny -- of ignorance, avarice, cruelty, imposing their brute will upon all who differ with them or stand in their way. We see that spectacle in Russia today, and those who are writhing there in the gratification of their lawless desire for power are the counterparts and co-workers against law and established government with the authors of these resolutions and other propaganda of murder, assassination...
Criminal Enemies of Social Order - Wikisource
JBeukema
Rookie
- Banned
- #49
Kill them all and let god sort them out?It's pretty disgusting to realize that every single one of our supposed LAWS has so many loopholes that literally ANY monster can "get off," with a good enough lawyer.
It's been a bitch of mine for a while, this thang where We, The People can't understand our laws, for ourselves ~ we need "interpreters" in the form of attorneys and all of this judicial code that has gone before,
which sounds great, but each new loophole creates the possibility for yet another loophole, until it becomes a giant ball of yarn/string/rope/line, with thousands of knots that you have to work out in order to get a straight piece.
<sigh>
...
For at least, it hasn't been boring!
Exactly why they should be dealt with on the battefield... No trial, no aquital... if they are innocent, then let God reward them somehow.
Exactly the mindset of OBL and the guys who flew the planes into the towers
Capitalist
Jeffersonian Liberal
- May 22, 2010
- 835
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Via Weekly Standard:
“I am disgusted at the total miscarriage of justice today in Manhattan’s federal civilian court. In a case where Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani was facing 285 criminal counts, including hundreds of murder charges, and where Attorney General Eric Holder assured us that ‘failure is not an option,’ the jury found him guilty on only one count and acquitted him of all other counts including every murder charge.
“This tragic verdict demonstrates the absolute insanity of the Obama Administration’s decision to try al-Qaeda terrorists in civilian courts.
“This case was doomed from the beginning when the judge excluded DOJ’s key witness who admitted selling the explosives to Ghailani. Where is the justice for the more than 200 people killed and 4,000 injured in the terrorist bombings of our U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania?
“This is a tragic wake-up call to the Obama Administration to immediately abandon its ill-advised plan to try Guantanamo terrorists like the admitted 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed in federal civilian courts. We must treat them as wartime enemies and try them in military commissions at Guantanamo.
“As the next Chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, I intend to hold hearings and conduct the necessary oversight on this critical homeland security issue in the 112th Congress.”
“This tragic verdict demonstrates the absolute insanity of the Obama Administration’s decision to try al-Qaeda terrorists in civilian courts.
“This case was doomed from the beginning when the judge excluded DOJ’s key witness who admitted selling the explosives to Ghailani. Where is the justice for the more than 200 people killed and 4,000 injured in the terrorist bombings of our U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania?
“This is a tragic wake-up call to the Obama Administration to immediately abandon its ill-advised plan to try Guantanamo terrorists like the admitted 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed in federal civilian courts. We must treat them as wartime enemies and try them in military commissions at Guantanamo.
“As the next Chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, I intend to hold hearings and conduct the necessary oversight on this critical homeland security issue in the 112th Congress.”
Capitalist
Jeffersonian Liberal
- May 22, 2010
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SFC Ollie
Still Marching
- Thread starter
- #53
I can't believe some of you.
This guy purchased the TNT that killed 284 people.
This guy was the chief forger for Al Queada.
This guy was one of Bin Ladens personal body guards.
And he walks off with 20 years?
And you people think this is justice?
No, this was a farce and a major fuck up by the Obama team.
This guy purchased the TNT that killed 284 people.
This guy was the chief forger for Al Queada.
This guy was one of Bin Ladens personal body guards.
And he walks off with 20 years?
And you people think this is justice?
No, this was a farce and a major fuck up by the Obama team.
Modbert
Daydream Believer
- Sep 2, 2008
- 33,178
- 3,055
- 48
So if we confront a suspect who is a suspected terrorist, kill him as you wish, and it turns out he's innocent, then what? We're sorry?
B. Kidd
Diamond Member
The kicker is that an appeal is planned for the one charge he was found guilty on.
Granny
Gold Member
Even if the appeal is lost, he will probably be pardoned by Obama at the end of his term or he might issue yet another Executive Order - in the name of "goodwill," "peaceful agreement" or some other BS.
These people should not be tried in a civilian court by any stretch of the imagination. These cases should be tried in a military tribunal. Period.
These people should not be tried in a civilian court by any stretch of the imagination. These cases should be tried in a military tribunal. Period.
"It shows how totally wrong the Obama administration is to bring a case like this to civilian court," he said. "He was acquitted of 224 counts of murder."
The case underscores the challenges faced by prosecutors. Judge Lewis Kaplan barred a key witness from testifying because the man's name came to light while Ghailani was held at a CIA camp where suspects reportedly were tortured.
"If this had been before a military tribunal, evidence that was blocked in this case would have been admissable," King was quick to point out.
Read more: Alleged Al-Qaeda terrorist Ahmed Ghailani acquitted of all but one charge in embassy bombing trial
Elections have consequences. Pretty sad.
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