Tenure-- harmful or helpful?

[regent]

Many school districts give teachers raises for experience and additional college work. Eliminate tenure and with the constant hiring of new teachers a district can keep the expenses down. One of the drawbacks to eliminating tenure is the fewer students might go into teaching and fewer stay. I think the number of teacher leaving after five years is now quite high, tenure and all.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Tenure is necessary to protect the process from undue pressure from the far right or the far left.

 

[Ibentoken]

I think a teacher should be fired if they fail to educate their class to standard.

Well, that sounds like a fine idea in general. But how would you feel about being fired for not meeting the standard because a bunch of the students just plain don't give a shit about their education?

What about the ones who do? I would expect professional educators to be able to tell the difference. Pitiful excuse.

 

[longknife]

Here's my solution to this - TESTS.

Make each teacher take a standardized test on the subject they are teaching. If they can't get a passing grade - fire them!

 

[regent]

Here's my solution to this - TESTS.

Make each teacher take a standardized test on the subject they are teaching. If they can't get a passing grade - fire them!

The larger districts often require new teachers to pass a test in their major or even minor. But school master programs do not always come out perfectly and teachers are often assigned or asked to teach subjects they have little background. Should a teacher be fired because the district asks him or her to teach a subject for which they have no teacher? I think most teachers like to teach in their subject area but to help out....

 

[JT8691]

What is an ineffective teacher and how is an ineffective teacher identified, and who does the identification?

higher then the schools avg for dropouts
Lower test scores
Teacher doesn't care about their students and doesn't help them.

So the teacher gives students better grades and easier work and the student stays in school and bingo the teacher is an effective teacher. Sounds like a great idea.

The poster you quoted had it wrong:

-You can compare the student's grades on standardized tests that your entire state does, so you can compare them to your district, state, different classes, and the school

-You can then go back and compare the improvement of your students from one year to the next (this is because some kids will naturally be better than others, so it's more important to measure how much the teacher is improving the student's ability).

-Teachers get evaluated in the classroom by their principal, APs, and by their district (I get evaluated quite often)

-There are ways to tell what teachers are effective and which ones aren't. If a teacher is a teacher that just gives out "easy work"....their students are going to bomb their standardized tests (or finals, as my district does), and it's going to look bad for the teacher.

-I disagree with dropouts. I had two students dropout this past semester. One kid (openly admitted) to being a drug addict. He showed up to school just to sell drugs. Never did one ounce of work in my classroom and was a pretty big distraction to all of the kids in class. Once he was gone the other kids learned a lot more. The other kid never bothered to show up. In the first semester (18 weeks) they showed up twice. Yes two times in 18 weeks.

 

[JT8691]

I can see some need for tenure at the university level, but there is no educational need for it in high school or below. It works against what's best for a child's education.

Agreed. If you're an ineffective teacher--you should be let go.

What is an ineffective teacher and how is an ineffective teacher identified, and who does the identification?

If the teacher gets bad reviews from in class evaluations done by their principal, APs, district, etc.

If their student's tests tend not to improve from the previous year

If their classes show extreme behavioral problems...for example this year when I was issuing final examines--and my whole building/department was the classroom next to me the kids were singing and yelling the entire time. I had several people ask the teacher to keep it down...but that teacher had NO control over their students. If I had a student that had to go to another class to make up a test or something they would beg me not to send them there (and I didn't). That teacher's lack of control over their classroom inhibited my ability to teach as the kids would be so distracted. I can't tell you the amount of times that I had kids complaining to me that they couldn't concentrate. I spoke with the teacher, with administration, and nobody could do anything about it....except for that teacher would did NOTHING.

 

[regent]

higher then the schools avg for dropouts
Lower test scores
Teacher doesn't care about their students and doesn't help them.

So the teacher gives students better grades and easier work and the student stays in school and bingo the teacher is an effective teacher. Sounds like a great idea.

The poster you quoted had it wrong:

-You can compare the student's grades on standardized tests that your entire state does, so you can compare them to your district, state, different classes, and the school

-You can then go back and compare the improvement of your students from one year to the next (this is because some kids will naturally be better than others, so it's more important to measure how much the teacher is improving the student's ability).

-Teachers get evaluated in the classroom by their principal, APs, and by their district (I get evaluated quite often)

-There are ways to tell what teachers are effective and which ones aren't. If a teacher is a teacher that just gives out "easy work"....their students are going to bomb their standardized tests (or finals, as my district does), and it's going to look bad for the teacher.

-I disagree with dropouts. I had two students dropout this past semester. One kid (openly admitted) to being a drug addict. He showed up to school just to sell drugs. Never did one ounce of work in my classroom and was a pretty big distraction to all of the kids in class. Once he was gone the other kids learned a lot more. The other kid never bothered to show up. In the first semester (18 weeks) they showed up twice. Yes two times in 18 weeks.

What is the procedure by which the principal evaluates you or other teachers?

 

[JT8691]

So the teacher gives students better grades and easier work and the student stays in school and bingo the teacher is an effective teacher. Sounds like a great idea.

The poster you quoted had it wrong:

-You can compare the student's grades on standardized tests that your entire state does, so you can compare them to your district, state, different classes, and the school

-You can then go back and compare the improvement of your students from one year to the next (this is because some kids will naturally be better than others, so it's more important to measure how much the teacher is improving the student's ability).

-Teachers get evaluated in the classroom by their principal, APs, and by their district (I get evaluated quite often)

-There are ways to tell what teachers are effective and which ones aren't. If a teacher is a teacher that just gives out "easy work"....their students are going to bomb their standardized tests (or finals, as my district does), and it's going to look bad for the teacher.

-I disagree with dropouts. I had two students dropout this past semester. One kid (openly admitted) to being a drug addict. He showed up to school just to sell drugs. Never did one ounce of work in my classroom and was a pretty big distraction to all of the kids in class. Once he was gone the other kids learned a lot more. The other kid never bothered to show up. In the first semester (18 weeks) they showed up twice. Yes two times in 18 weeks.

What is the procedure by which the principal evaluates you or other teachers?

At my school (public high school) it goes like this: we get emails asking us to sign up for evaluations on specific days (to make sure we'll be present). I work at a large school with over 200 teachers so that's needed. We then have the option of meeting up with the principal ahead of time if we wish. The principal then pops into our classroom and sits there observing us. My principal usually participates in the lessons (if applicable), writes down tons of notes and looks for many things that they evaluate us on (is the lesson appropriate, is at the proper level, are the kids engaged, and I being clear in my expectations and directions, am I utilizing classroom well, how are the students interacting with me and each other, etc.). Tons of stuff.

The principal then gives us a rating (there's 5 options, so think of it as a scale of 1-5 with 5 being the best) on each category--there's about 25 categories. They then submit that into our records. They will also have a meeting with us up to about a week later and go over their results with us. What did we do well, what we should work on, how did we follow up that lesson to evaluate our students...things like that.

APs (assistant principals) can also do evaluations separately from the principal's.

My district also has evaluations and those basically work the same way....except they can be unannounced, so they can just randomly show up.

 

[regent]

The poster you quoted had it wrong:

-You can compare the student's grades on standardized tests that your entire state does, so you can compare them to your district, state, different classes, and the school

-You can then go back and compare the improvement of your students from one year to the next (this is because some kids will naturally be better than others, so it's more important to measure how much the teacher is improving the student's ability).

-Teachers get evaluated in the classroom by their principal, APs, and by their district (I get evaluated quite often)

-There are ways to tell what teachers are effective and which ones aren't. If a teacher is a teacher that just gives out "easy work"....their students are going to bomb their standardized tests (or finals, as my district does), and it's going to look bad for the teacher.

-I disagree with dropouts. I had two students dropout this past semester. One kid (openly admitted) to being a drug addict. He showed up to school just to sell drugs. Never did one ounce of work in my classroom and was a pretty big distraction to all of the kids in class. Once he was gone the other kids learned a lot more. The other kid never bothered to show up. In the first semester (18 weeks) they showed up twice. Yes two times in 18 weeks.

What is the procedure by which the principal evaluates you or other teachers?

At my school (public high school) it goes like this: we get emails asking us to sign up for evaluations on specific days (to make sure we'll be present). I work at a large school with over 200 teachers so that's needed. We then have the option of meeting up with the principal ahead of time if we wish. The principal then pops into our classroom and sits there observing us. My principal usually participates in the lessons (if applicable), writes down tons of notes and looks for many things that they evaluate us on (is the lesson appropriate, is at the proper level, are the kids engaged, and I being clear in my expectations and directions, am I utilizing classroom well, how are the students interacting with me and each other, etc.). Tons of stuff.

The principal then gives us a rating (there's 5 options, so think of it as a scale of 1-5 with 5 being the best) on each category--there's about 25 categories. They then submit that into our records. They will also have a meeting with us up to about a week later and go over their results with us. What did we do well, what we should work on, how did we follow up that lesson to evaluate our students...things like that.

APs (assistant principals) can also do evaluations separately from the principal's.

My district also has evaluations and those basically work the same way....except they can be unannounced, so they can just randomly show up.

Wonder if that method of evaluation by your principal has changed over the last fifty years?
I also wonder if the principal doesn't know a number of things about your teaching methods, relations with students etc. long before he or she ever enters your room?
But here's another question, do any of your athletic coaches teach other classes besides PE?

 

[blastoff]

JT8691...Thanks for the insight on how things are done at your school.

A couple of questions though. Am I right to assume your school has a tenure system, or whatever it's called?

If so, after a tenured teacher goes through the evaluation process you've described, or perhaps several times, and the evaluations indicated the teacher isn't doing a good job, and hasn't responed to the suggestions offered by the evaluators to improve performance, what then? Can the teacher be fired, or does tenure provide roadblocks that prohibit termination?

 

[hunarcy]

I would expect professional educators to be able to tell the difference. Pitiful excuse.

Professional educators have to take everyone who comes in the door. They don't pick and choose which students to take. They are responsible for everyone's education, and have to try to teach everyone, even if it slows down the overall progress of the class. They are required to maintain order, even if it slows down the overall progress of the class. And, they are required to tend to the overall health of the class as much as they can (mental and physical health) even if it slows down the overall progress of the class.

 

[JT8691]

What is the procedure by which the principal evaluates you or other teachers?

At my school (public high school) it goes like this: we get emails asking us to sign up for evaluations on specific days (to make sure we'll be present). I work at a large school with over 200 teachers so that's needed. We then have the option of meeting up with the principal ahead of time if we wish. The principal then pops into our classroom and sits there observing us. My principal usually participates in the lessons (if applicable), writes down tons of notes and looks for many things that they evaluate us on (is the lesson appropriate, is at the proper level, are the kids engaged, and I being clear in my expectations and directions, am I utilizing classroom well, how are the students interacting with me and each other, etc.). Tons of stuff.

The principal then gives us a rating (there's 5 options, so think of it as a scale of 1-5 with 5 being the best) on each category--there's about 25 categories. They then submit that into our records. They will also have a meeting with us up to about a week later and go over their results with us. What did we do well, what we should work on, how did we follow up that lesson to evaluate our students...things like that.

APs (assistant principals) can also do evaluations separately from the principal's.

My district also has evaluations and those basically work the same way....except they can be unannounced, so they can just randomly show up.

Wonder if that method of evaluation by your principal has changed over the last fifty years?
I also wonder if the principal doesn't know a number of things about your teaching methods, relations with students etc. long before he or she ever enters your room?
But here's another question, do any of your athletic coaches teach other classes besides PE?

Our head football coach is a reading teacher and our basketball head coach is a math teacher.

And a principal of around 200 teachers can't figure out every single teacher's relationships to their students. But your department can get a pretty good idea on it.

 

[JT8691]

JT8691...Thanks for the insight on how things are done at your school.

A couple of questions though. Am I right to assume your school has a tenure system, or whatever it's called?

If so, after a tenured teacher goes through the evaluation process you've described, or perhaps several times, and the evaluations indicated the teacher isn't doing a good job, and hasn't responed to the suggestions offered by the evaluators to improve performance, what then? Can the teacher be fired, or does tenure provide roadblocks that prohibit termination?

My district has tenure (it's not up to the individual schools). To my knowledge a teacher cannot be fired arbitrarily, but if they show no signs of improvement and are constantly doing poorly I believe they can as long as they're not implementing what the district/principal want. I'm not 100% sure about that though to be honest, I've received very good scores on all of my reviews.

 

[Darkwind]

The issue of tenure for teachers has always bothered me. I think that teachers comprise the backbone of our society-- developing children into students, students into learners, and learners into scholars (though it doesn't always get that far). The problem that I've seen, though, is that the tenure laws are so tight that teachers have much freedom and it takes a lot to get them fired even if they are irresponsible, lousy, and lazy. While I think tenure is good because I believe in job security, I think that the requirements to achieve it should be strenghthened and those who are tenured should be evaluated appropriately to make sure they are on top of their jobs. I say this because I had quite a few teachers who were irresponsible and lazy with little work ethic in HS and they were all tenured.

A very tight line to walk. If I remember correctly (I don't have time to look it up right now) tenure was initially formed to protect teachers at the collegiate level from retaliation from professors and vindictive deans. However, it has morphed into a blanket protection against anything, and that is where the problem arises.

The tenure laws should not be done away with, as there is good reason to protect teachers from that sort of thing, but it cannot be allowed to let incompetent teachers stay in their jobs.

It is a very sticky issue.

 

[regent]

Teachers with tenure can be, and are, fired all the time. But once a teacher has tenure there must be a reason other than politics or we need the position for another cheaper teacher and so on. Principals usually do not like tenure as they have to present valid reasons for the termination. Tenure serves the same purpose as civil service, when mass firings took place when a different political party was elected.