Teacher shortage = Virtual Teacher + "teaching assistant"

[martybegan]

Same attitude toward the same kind of isolated incidents. Just as the left wing media demands of you.

The issues with the unions are systemic, not isolated.

 

[Unkotare]

The issues with the unions are systemic, not isolated.

The police unions too?

 

[martybegan]

The police unions too?

The issue is the people in power have more reason to accommodate the union than try to get the best deal for the taxpayer. It's a systemic flaw with all municipal unions.

 

[fncceo]

I have always said that teachers, not professional athletes, are the ones that should have multimillion dollar contracts. Our society is completely upside down I'm afraid.

Pro athletes are paid multi-million dollar salaries because they generate many times their salary in revenue for those people who pay them. People pay $250 Billion every year to watch competitive sports.

I know a few middle school kids who would pay everything they have to not watch teachers.

 

[bodecea]

I don't want to hear about teachers complaining about their salaries. Damn near everyone in any occupation thinks they are underpaid. Nobody complains about being overpaid.

One of my kids is an elementary school teacher at a public school and she's making six figures.

Same thing with an old girlfriend of mine. She's a retired kindergarten teacher and was making over a hundred grand/year before she retired.

It's not like teachers are living in poverty, as they would have you believe.

"and she's making six figures".................suuuuuuure she is.

 

[bodecea]

Pro athletes are paid multi-million dollar salaries because they generate many times their salary in revenue for those people who pay them. People pay $250 Billion every year to watch competitive sports.

I know a few middle school kids who would pay everything they have to not watch teachers.

View attachment 670708

By all means....let's go by what middle school kids want.

 

[fncceo]

By all means....let's go by what middle school kids want.

When teachers start generating billions of dollar of profit for schools, we can revisit their salaries.

 

[justoffal]

Pro athletes are paid multi-million dollar salaries because they generate many times their salary in revenue for those people who pay them. People pay $250 Billion every year to watch competitive sports.

I know a few middle school kids who would pay everything they have to not watch teachers.

View attachment 670708

Oh I have no arguments with your logic.
Capitalism is whatever it is. Teachers are horribly underpaid notwithstanding.
This is one decision that must be made based on practical forecast and not simply on supply and demand. A good math teacher who spends an entire career generating several hundred proficient engineers may be responsible for half the world's wealth intrinsically speaking.

 

[SweetSue92]

Pro athletes are paid multi-million dollar salaries because they generate many times their salary in revenue for those people who pay them. People pay $250 Billion every year to watch competitive sports.

I know a few middle school kids who would pay everything they have to not watch teachers.

View attachment 670708

I taught 13 yo. They put pencils in their noses and think they have invented the wheel all over again. Are you really of the mind that we ought to let 13 yo decide what is best for them? Because I am definitely....not

 

[fncceo]

I taught 13 yo. They put pencils in their noses and think they have invented the wheel all over again. Are you really of the mind that we ought to let 13 yo decide what is best for them? Because I am definitely....not

No. I merely say that no one is going to pay for a show that no one wants to see.

 

[SweetSue92]

No. I merely say that no one is going to pay for a show that no one wants to see.

The 13 yo are not going to pay for it. But the 13 yo have no freaking money anyway, other than their lawnmowing money.

Their parents, however, will pay, if the "show" is good for them in the long run.

This was not a good comparison. An education is not a "show".

 

[fncceo]

A good math teacher who spends an entire career generating several hundred proficient engineers

There are two million engineers at all stages of their career in America, and 3.5 million teachers, about 1.5 million of those are dedicated math teachers (including university level).

Only about 100,000 engineers complete an engineering degree program each year, 7 engineers to every hundred math teachers. Each engineer will have several math teachers at different stages throughout their career, which brings the that number even lower.

Even if you accept that all two million engineers are competent, not even proficient, it's not likely that any one math teacher produced several hundred of them.

If we really want to pay teachers what they're worth ... treat them like coaches. The more of their students that go on to become successful professionals, the more they get paid.

 

[SweetSue92]

There are two million engineers at all stages of their career in America, and 3.5 million teachers, about 1.5 million of those are dedicated math teachers (including university level).

Only about 100,000 engineers completed a degree program each year, 7 engineers to every hundred math teachers. Each engineer will have several math teachers at different stages throughout their career, which brings the that number even lower.

Even if you accept that all two million engineers are competent, not even proficient, it's not likely that any one math teacher produced several hundred of them.

If we really want to pay teachers what they're worth ... treat them like coaches. The more of their students that go on to become successful professionals, the more they get paid.

So the goal of teaching young people math is simply to make engineers?

 

[fncceo]

The 13 yo are not going to pay for it. But the 13 yo have no freaking money anyway, other than their lawnmowing money.

Their parents, however, will pay, if the "show" is good for them in the long run.

This was not a good comparison. An education is not a "show".

If parents were the only ones paying, I'm sure they would seek good value for money. They will pay more for a better education, if that is important to them. Others will pay less because beer and a new jet ski are more important. It's up to the consumer.

But, we don't do that. Every taxpayer is assessed the cost of the education regardless of benefit and has no say into the what will make up that education.

A case could be made for the elimination of public education in favor of private and let the market determine if teachers are worth more than they currently make.

 

[fncceo]

So the goal of teaching young people math is simply to make engineers?

Simply replying to the claim that any teacher may produce several hundred proficient engineers during their career.

Statistically highly unlikely.

 

[justoffal]

There are two million engineers at all stages of their career in America, and 3.5 million teachers, about 1.5 million of those are dedicated math teachers (including university level).

Only about 100,000 engineers complete an engineering degree program each year, 7 engineers to every hundred math teachers. Each engineer will have several math teachers at different stages throughout their career, which brings the that number even lower.

Even if you accept that all two million engineers are competent, not even proficient, it's not likely that any one math teacher produced several hundred of them.

If we really want to pay teachers what they're worth ... treat them like coaches. The more of their students that go on to become successful professionals, the more they get paid.

Certain fields of engineering pose tremendous learning difficulties.
Most everything can be reduced to the math formulas that lie beneath the theory. The actual point I'm trying to make is not that one teacher is responsible for half of the successful engineers out there the point I'm trying to make is that nobody knows how important along the way is the input of a capable teacher when it comes to transferring a difficult academic procedure to a student.

Whether you want to base it on individual merit or group effort irregardless we simply do not emphasize the importance of teaching in that field nearly enough. Professional sports teams are an example of societal surplus that should be applied in more practical ways. Yet like anything that involves inherent entropy it really seems as though you can't have the useful unless you also have the useless.

Especially difficult is mechanical engineering since it is extremely heavy on physics... Physics is actually little more than a fancied-up mathematics extension.

Ultimately math underlies the basic skill set of every important science we have. The failure rate you noted is not nearly stiff enough. We are still letting too many people through who don't actually make the grade but then again colleges need enrollment to stay in business. Mathematics and arithmatical dexterousness is so vital to the future of research and the success of science it should no longer be in the hands of municipalities to determine the worth of a good math teacher.

I like your idea about rewarding those who have high success rates in their students since it's an indication of what kind of teachers they are. It's not a perfect solution and probably wouldn't work in the politically correct climate that dominates our school systems today, but it's a beginning.

There are a lot of math teachers out there who understand math but do not understand how to teach it. Finding one who can transfer the vital procedures to the mind of students who range from average to above average cannot be overstated as to the the value added.

In the final analysis a professional athlete may be worth what he's being paid in the supply and demand market of capitalism... But has anyone tallied up the cost in lost study hours of kids who dedicate themselves to watching what amounts the little more than an extension of tall caveman pounding on each other for survival? I doubt it.

Ultimately my position on the matter is what it always has been good teachers are underpaid and underappreciated. If we choose to let capitalism dictate I'll way forward with an education we will fall far behind the other populous nations.

This was a good exchange I appreciate the effort you put into your posts they are always worth reading and you obviously take the time to research what you post.


Jo

 

[fncceo]

There are a lot of math teachers out there who understand math but do not understand how to teach it.

Richard Feynman is quoted as saying, "If you can't teach a subject to anyone, you really don't understand it yourself".

I think he meant that if you fully understand something, you can put it into words that anyone else can understand.

 

[justoffal]

Richard Feynman is quoted as saying, "If you can't teach a subject to anyone, you really don't understand it yourself".

I think he meant that if you fully understand something, you can put it into words that anyone else can understand.

Feynman was a genius....proof? He couldn't spell to save his life.

Lol

Jo

 

[fncceo]

Feynman was a genius....proof? He couldn't spell to save his life.

Lol

Jo

With a name like Feynman ... spelling probably traumatized him at a very early age.

 

[justoffal]

With a name like Feynman ... spelling probably traumatized him at a very early age.

Lol.....yes no doubt....